Train too long for platform!

[voyagerdude220]

I remember an Edinburgh bound 11 car Pendolino being routed into platform 6 at Wolverhampton a year or two ago.. The Driver took the route..
The train got terminated at Wolverhampton after it shunted into one of the much bigger through platforms.

 

[Horizon22]

At the signal controlling entry to a dead end bay platform? Absolutely no chance you’d be unable to stop.

At a major terminal, you'd know which platform you were going into via the theatre indicator no? This would presumably raise some concerns, but it may be too late.

Different issue if there is already stock sitting in the platform which means you overhang, which may not be noticeable.

 

[43066]

Ok I bow to your knowledge. The speed from 0m43c is 25mph, and 40mph up to that point. I assumed if the route is set straight in with no approach control then by the time the driver saw the 9 or 10 in the route indicator they wouldn’t be able to stop at the signal.

I also don’t know why they couldn‘t detrain through the front unit to minimise the inconvenience.

oh and I’ve seen a colleague put an HST in 14 at Padd.

At a major terminal, you'd know which platform you were going into via the theatre indicator no? This would presumably raise some concerns, but it may be too late.

Different issue if there is already stock sitting in the platform which means you overhang, which may not be noticeable.

At all the London terminals I’ve signed (6 so far, which I find incredible but there we go!) there isn’t a single situation where you’d be going too quickly to put the brake in and stop before the signal if you were being routed into the wrong platform. You’re generally approaching at 30mph or less and the theatre box will be visible. If in doubt you slow down until you’re certain you’re going where you need to be, or you stop and call the signaller.

If there’s something in the platform and you’re called on (as happened in the recent St Pancras incident) you’ll be brought almost to a stand before the dummy illuminates.

There are no excuses for drivers doing this I’m afraid!

 

[Kite159]

I remember an Edinburgh bound 11 car Pendolino being routed into platform 6 at Wolverhampton a year or two ago.. The Driver took the route..
The train got terminated at Wolverhampton after it shunted into one of the much bigger through platforms.

Wouldn't it be platform 5 considering platform 6 faces towards Stafford and from memory is one of those platforms which can't be accessed when in passenger service due to the signals?

 

[357]

The speed from 0m43c is 25mph, and 40mph up to that point. I assumed if the route is set straight in with no approach control then by the time the driver saw the 9 or 10 in the route indicator they wouldn’t be able to stop at the signal.

I can comfortably stop a train from 35mph in the distance from an AWS magnet to a signal.

I have never tried it on a red, but I'm talking from experience coming into 180m platforms thousands of times.

 

[fairysdad]

Been referenced a few times in this thread; what are the 'Lime Street Controls'?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Wouldn't it be platform 5 considering platform 6 faces towards Stafford and from memory is one of those platforms which can't be accessed when in passenger service due to the signals?

Oops! Yes you are correct, I misread Traksy.

 

[saismee]

At a major terminal, you'd know which platform you were going into via the theatre indicator no? This would presumably raise some concerns, but it may be too late.

I'd imagine stopping as soon as possible and contacting the signaller would be faster than stopping at the platform first.

Different issue if there is already stock sitting in the platform which means you overhang, which may not be noticeable.

Didn't a collision happen between an HST and a sprinter where the driver assumed that they were routed into an empty platform as they obviously couldn't fit behind the sprinter... so they dangerously disregarded the route indicator. I can't remember the location but I think it was ScotRail territory.

 

[driverd]

I sign Colton.

The positioning of the signal there is, frankly, horrific, with no banner repeaters and the positioning of the overhead stations - but surely your TOC would also tell you to stop as soon as possible if given a wrong route?

For me, while I can still get to where I need to be by taking either route (I sign both), the chances are that my guard only signs the mainline.

I think what you're describing is over the top cautiousness by a TOC. There's nothing wrong with the signal at Colton, you don't need to sight a green within service braking distance on the off chance you’ve been wrong routed.

At some signals a wrong route is unavoidable if offered (Colton being a good example). Any half decent employer would fully back their driver and also appreciate that the performance implications of even suggesting every train on the up fast at Colton should slow from 125 to be able to stop, just incase of a wrong route, far outweighs the safety benefit for the once in a blue moon the signaller (or, to be far more accurate, ARS) gets it wrong. Ultimately thats what it is - signaller error.

Luckily both my previous TOC employer and current employer take the common sense approach.

Back on topic, assuming Euston works the same as other locations (train gets checked to red, subsequently clears to position light with platform number), driver should have queried the signal, signaller shouldn't have routed it. 50/50 blame if the signaller was aware of the train formation. All on the driver if booked 350*2 but actually presented as 730*2 and signaller was unaware (though arguably theres some form of system error to take into account if the data didnt pass along).

Sounds like it was handled atrociously mind, as pretty much everyone has stated, you'd lock off the hanging off doors and de-train pax from the bits on the platform. Shunting with people onboard is never preferable, never mind agitated people who are now 30 mins late.

 

[Twingo37175]

IDidn't a collision happen between an HST and a sprinter where the driver assumed that they were routed into an empty platform as they obviously couldn't fit behind the sprinter... so they dangerously disregarded the route indicator. I can't remember the location but I think it was ScotRail teterritory.

It was Plymouth, I think it was 150 into the back of HST

 

[43066]

Mostly correct, except if a signal displays a wrong route or an undersize platform, driver must stop and question it. Competent driving means you don't put yourself in a position where you can't stop in time for that signal.

Definitely not the case. If you are a driver(?) I assume you only sign routes with very low line speeds?

I think what you're describing is over the top cautiousness by a TOC. There's nothing wrong with the signal at Colton, you don't need to sight a green within service braking distance on the off chance you’ve been wrong routed.

I think you’d be expected to drop the brake immediately (because of course you need to stop asap and rectify the situation), but would be fully exonerated.

Of course there are locations where it’s more 50/50, and the driver should be able to tell from a few signals back that they’ve been wrong routed.

 

[saismee]

It was Plymouth, I think it was 150 into the back of HST

That sounds more accurate actually, I think the damage would've been a bit worse if the HST was moving.

 

[357]

I think what you're describing is over the top cautiousness by a TOC. There's nothing wrong with the signal at Colton, you don't need to sight a green within service braking distance on the off chance you’ve been wrong routed.

I never said that?

If I get wrong routed there is put it in emergency and stop as soon as possible.

The sighting of the signal is personal opinion I guess, it's not the worst but it could be better.

At some signals a wrong route is unavoidable if offered (Colton being a good example). Any half decent employer would fully back their driver and also appreciate that the performance implications of even suggesting every train on the up fast at Colton should slow from 125 to be able to stop, just incase of a wrong route, far outweighs the safety benefit for the once in a blue moon the signaller (or, to be far more accurate, ARS) gets it wrong. Ultimately thats what it is - signaller error.

Nobody said this?

Luckily both my previous TOC employer and current employer take the common sense approach.

What TOC doesn't? We were talking about situations where you can stop but decide to take the route anyway.

Back on topic, assuming Euston works the same as other locations (train gets checked to red, subsequently clears to position light with platform number), driver should have queried the signal, signaller shouldn't have routed it. 50/50 blame if the signaller was aware of the train formation.

Erm, I've never known any location where you get a position light into an empty platform?

Sounds like it was handled atrociously mind, as pretty much everyone has stated, you'd lock off the hanging off doors and de-train pax from the bits on the platform. Shunting with people onboard is never preferable, never mind agitated people who are now 30 mins late.

We agree on something!

 

[Tomnick]

Been referenced a few times in this thread; what are the 'Lime Street Controls'?

In simple terms, it's a control that's part of the signalling system that will only allow a calling-on signal to clear if the room available in the platform exceeds the length of the approaching train.

Both are measured by the line in the platform and on the approach to the protecting signal being divided into shorter "measuring" track circuits – e.g., if you have a 12 car length platform and trains are routinely formed of combinations of 4 car units, you might have three track circuits within the length of the platform and two on the approach to the signal.

If two track circuits are occupied in the platform, only one approach track circuit would be allowed to be occupied. If only one track circuit is occupied in the platform, both approach track circuits (but not the next track circuit in rear) would be allowed to be occupied. This doesn't work so well with trains of a wide variety of different lengths, hopefully obviously!

 

[LowLevel]

I think my favourite clanger dropped (albeit with the benefit of not having to deal with it) was the unfortunate west bound freight train driver who put an empty stone train in to one of the north facing bays at Sheffield a few years back. That took some sorting out.

 

[greatkingrat]

Freights have been sent into the bay at Gospel Oak more than once!

 

[Class15]

Freights have been sent into the bay at Gospel Oak more than once!

Oh dear! I haven’t actually seen that one yet! Are there any recent incidents?

 

[LAX54]

Without wanting to speak for them, I think @357’s post was talking about the specific situation of approaching the last signal before getting a platform at a terminal station. It certainly read that way to me in the context of the thread

You wouldn't get greens into the station anyway, the last signal will be a single yellow, and in the London area at least, with 4 aspect signalling, the previous would be a double yellow

 

[MCR247]

You wouldn't get greens into the station anyway, the last signal will be a single yellow, and in the London area at least, with 4 aspect signalling, the previous would be a double yellow

I’m not sure anyone mentioned getting greens into the station?

 

[driverd]

Mostly correct, except if a signal displays a wrong route or an undersize platform, driver must stop and question it. Competent driving means you don't put yourself in a position where you can't stop in time for that signal.

I've always been of the view that when incidents like this occur, quickly getting the passengers off through the local doors which are accommodated is the best option - meaning the passengers are out of the way, and ultimately not inconvenienced, and the risk of egresses pulled delaying the move further is removed. RSSB should probably lead the way on this one.

We've evacuated a 3 car 158 around 2001 in just 3 minutes using only the front door after the signaller forgot how many trains were on the platform. No kidnapping the punters silliness there.

I never said that?

I must apologise - I mistook 357 and 185 as usernames. Its what I get for posting during an early shift. I won't quote the rest of your message but fully agree on pretty much everything.

Erm, I've never known any location where you get a position light into an empty platform?

Yeah, just to clarify what I was getting at - some of the comments upthread from people who (I presume) sign Euston are saying you wouldn't have sufficient time to stop in this situation (atleast thats how I was reading the message) - so I was just allowing for some particularly obscure form of approach release into an occupied bay that I may not be familiar with. If they don't sign Euston/are just guessing, then yep I take it all back and its certainly on the driver.

We agree on something!

Superb!

I think you’d be expected to drop the brake immediately (because of course you need to stop asap and rectify the situation), but would be fully exonerated.

Of course there are locations where it’s more 50/50, and the driver should be able to tell from a few signals back that they’ve been wrong routed.

That's certainly what I was getting at. You can't mitigate the wrong route risks at some locations but you are expected to get the brake in sharpish. So long as you do that, its not yours to worry about. Of course, if its a junction with flashers etc, its a different story.

 

[357]

Its what I get for posting during an early shift.

I'm guilty of this more than once

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I also don’t know why they couldn‘t detrain through the front unit to minimise the inconvenience.

Because that's not how these units work. You're describing UDS which is what the 350s utilise.

The 730s are ASDO, with no SDO as a backup. The only option is local door which control decided it wouldn't allow in this situation.

At stations where the trains may not fit there are beacons that the train picks up and only open what it perceives is accommodated.

The issue with Euston being there are no such beacons installed as the perceived risk was so marginal and didn't warrant taking platforms OOU to install them.

Obviously the most useful thing would have been the units having SDO as a backup so the guard could attend the rearmost accommodated door and release only those to the front. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[Rheoman]

Me neither, but I have been surprised (pleasantly) by the speed at which Pendolinos enter the platforms at Euston, which feels more than 15mph; May not be the same for all routes of course.

The approach speed to Euston is 40mph which drops to 25mph at the final signal. All platforms have TPWS grids so you have to be below 10mph when you go over them on the approach to the buffer stops.

 

[driverd]

Because that's not how these units work. You're describing UDS which is what the 350s utilise.

The 730s are ASDO, with no SDO as a backup. The only option is local door which control decided it wouldn't allow in this situation.

At stations where the trains may not fit there are beacons that the train picks up and only open what it perceives is accommodated.

The issue with Euston being there are no such beacons installed as the perceived risk was so marginal and didn't warrant taking platforms OOU to install them.

Obviously the most useful thing would have been the units having SDO as a backup so the guard could attend the rearmost accommodated door and release only those to the front. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Is there anything that would have prevented the rear 4 doors being manually locked out and a full release given (as per the overlength procedure for many legacy traction)?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Is there anything that would have prevented the rear 4 doors being manually locked out and a full release given (as per the overlength procedure for many legacy traction)?

Control refused. Physically, yes that could have been an option.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Control refused. Physically, yes that could have been an option.

So the problem wasn't due to an issue with the design of the units you were originally trying to make out but rail staff making a deliberate decision to inconvenience passengers.

 

[driverd]

So the problem wasn't due to an issue with the design of the units you were originally trying to make out but rail staff making a deliberate decision to inconvenience passengers.

Pretty much par for the course now. It often feels like front line staff are no longer considered professionals with expertise in their field, trusted to make a decision. All authority must be relinquished to someone in an office.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

So the problem wasn't due to an issue with the design of the units you were originally trying to make out but rail staff making a deliberate decision to inconvenience passengers.

I was answering why 'the front unit wasn't opened' which isn't possible with this traction type. There isn't a problem with the traction, I never implied there was. More suggesting that if there was a manual implementation of SDO as a backup, the situation would have been far more amenable to the passengers.

I'm merely stating a decision was made within control on how they wanted to sort this mess out. I'm not here to say whether that was right or wrong.

Clearly the decision made would have had ramifications regardless. The only reason I can think of for why they chose to do what they did was the rear hadn't fully cleared the points or catch area and was suitably blocking other platforms from dispatching. But that is just me thinking aloud.

 

[DelW]

So the problem wasn't due to an issue with the design of the units you were originally trying to make out but rail staff making a deliberate decision to inconvenience passengers.

It seems to be a combination of both:

- inflexible design of the door release controls and
- inflexible attitude from control (for unknown reason)

I think it would have been extremely annoying as a passenger though. On the occasion I experienced something similar (referred to recently on another thread) I was on my way into London early on a Saturday morning to catch a day-long charter, and a half hour delay would have ruined my day. Fortunately we were allowed to exit via the front cab (supervised by staff) with little delay.

 

[Horizon22]

I'd imagine stopping as soon as possible and contacting the signaller would be faster than stopping at the platform first.

Didn't a collision happen between an HST and a sprinter where the driver assumed that they were routed into an empty platform as they obviously couldn't fit behind the sprinter... so they dangerously disregarded the route indicator. I can't remember the location but I think it was ScotRail territory.

I was more thinking of a scenario whereby there’s a 4 car already on the platform, signaller believe the inward train is formed of 4 coaches but it is actually 8, and 12 coaches can’t fit on that platform.

A situation similar to this happened recently at Kings Cross where there was no suitable available platforms for a certain train, now beyond the point of no return and had to do a rather long shunt to get onto a line with access to an suitable platform

Normally this is resolved by signaller double checking portion working on platforms and proactive comms between station controllers, signallers and train crew.

More likely to occur during service disruption where workload is higher and platforms may have been altered.