Train too long for platform!

[GRONK08]

I just wondered if anyone can shed any light on a few questions I have regarding the following situation that occurred yesterday - 22/07/25.
I caught the the 09:46 LNR train at Watford Junction which was due in to Euston at 10:07. On the station screens it showed as being an 8 car set but when it arrived it was 730205 & 730210 (10 cars).
We arrived into Euston almost on time but on arrival the doors remained closed. Then after a couple of minutes came an announcement that there was an issue with the doors and could everybody return to their seats. It then became apparent that the train had arrived into platform 10 which could not accommodate a 10 car set.
After another 10 or so minutes, we were then told that the train would have to go back out of the station and then return on Platform 8.
After still no movement, one of the passengers then used the emergency door release and opened a set of doors. Just as they (and a lot of other passengers) were about to step off onto the platform the door was surrounded by railway staff telling everyone to get back/stay on the train as it was not safe to step onto the platform. They said the train could go any second and and if people were stepping off when the train moved there could be serious injuries! They then manually closed the doors again and finally we went back out and re-arrived 30 minutes late in Platform 11 (not 8 as advised).
So my questions are: Who would have been at fault for the train going into a platform that was too short? My initial thoughts was maybe the signaller had made the error but as the train had been showing at Watford as a 8 car set, maybe they were not aware that it was a 10 coach train? Then when it became apparent that the rear couple of carriages were not on the platform, why couldn't they open just the front 7 or 8 coaches doors? Staff told us this wasn't possible but I have been on many trains where there are announcements saying that people wanting to get off at certain stations should use the first 2 carriages due to short platforms so it must surely be possible to disable certain carriage doors? And lastly, when people did open the door and start getting off, why were they told the train could move at any moment. Surely in this safety conscious world there is something in place that prevents a train moving if there are doors open? Apologies if some of these questions are daft but although I have an interest in railways I am certainly no expert and would welcome understanding what happened a little better. Thank you

 

[TrainzBK]

Must’ve been a booked 8 car, substituted as a 10 car which the signaller must not have been made aware about. Driver is at fault as they should know that p10 does not accommodate that train and should’ve questioned the route given by the signaller.

 

[Railguy1]

Does the longer train prevent other trains from reaching other platforms? If not, I too am confused as to why selective door operation was not used.

 

[MCR247]

I just wondered if anyone can shed any light on a few questions I have regarding the following situation that occurred yesterday - 22/07/25.
I caught the the 09:46 LNR train at Watford Junction which was due in to Euston at 10:07. On the station screens it showed as being an 8 car set but when it arrived it was 730205 & 730210 (10 cars).
We arrived into Euston almost on time but on arrival the doors remained closed. Then after a couple of minutes came an announcement that there was an issue with the doors and could everybody return to their seats. It then became apparent that the train had arrived into platform 10 which could not accommodate a 10 car set.
After another 10 or so minutes, we were then told that the train would have to go back out of the station and then return on Platform 8.
After still no movement, one of the passengers then used the emergency door release and opened a set of doors. Just as they (and a lot of other passengers) were about to step off onto the platform the door was surrounded by railway staff telling everyone to get back/stay on the train as it was not safe to step onto the platform. They said the train could go any second and and if people were stepping off when the train moved there could be serious injuries! They then manually closed the doors again and finally we went back out and re-arrived 30 minutes late in Platform 11 (not 8 as advised).
So my questions are: Who would have been at fault for the train going into a platform that was too short? My initial thoughts was maybe the signaller had made the error but as the train had been showing at Watford as a 8 car set, maybe they were not aware that it was a 10 coach train? Then when it became apparent that the rear couple of carriages were not on the platform, why couldn't they open just the front 7 or 8 coaches doors? Staff told us this wasn't possible but I have been on many trains where there are announcements saying that people wanting to get off at certain stations should use the first 2 carriages due to short platforms so it must surely be possible to disable certain carriage doors? And lastly, when people did open the door and start getting off, why were they told the train could move at any moment. Surely in this safety conscious world there is something in place that prevents a train moving if there are doors open? Apologies if some of these questions are daft but although I have an interest in railways I am certainly no expert and would welcome understanding what happened a little better. Thank you

It is possible on trains fitted with Selective Door Opening to only open certain doors at stations with short platforms. But this feature is usually only set up for intermediate stops, and on some trains systems, using this function at a terminal stop where the train will change direction isn’t possible.

If the train can’t fit onto the platform at a terminus, it is possible (or maybe even likely) that it is blocking signals or points that may make the platform next to it unusable (or block in any train currently there). So ideally I think they’d want to get to the train back out of short platform as soon as they could.

As for what the staff were saying about the train being about to move off when someone had forced a door open, it is possible that they were exaggerating or stretching the truth slightly. A train definitely should know if any doors are open and if so it shouldn’t move. It is possible that at this point the train had a green signal back out of the platform and so really it needed to begin this shunt ASAP. But one set of doors being opened followed by a lot of people alighting would’ve likely triggered the same thing to happen up and down the train. (People stood at the doors in coaches 1 and 2 see a crowd of people walking down their platform to the exits that look like they’ve just got off their train isn’t going to encourage them to wait patiently). So they said what they needed to to stop a mass departure and to get that set of doors closed ASAP.

Generally ‘customer service rules’ include don’t lie to customers, but when safety is a matter or a factor then it has to be done.

Funnily enough, this seems to have happened (and been discussed on here) at almost a different London terminal each day this week

You can be waiting for a thread and then 3 turn up at once!

 

[357]

Drivers responsibility to know the length of their train and where it can and can't go.

If formed differently to booked I tend to give the box a ring on the way to advise them. Always seems to be appreciated as about 50% of the time they haven't been told.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2025 ==

Funnily enough, this seems to have happened (and been discussed on here) at almost a different London terminal each day this week

You can be waiting for a thread and then 3 turn up at once!

Recently there has been the same incident at Kings Cross (twice), St Pancras, Euston and maybe another one I have forgotten!

 

[MoraleSponge]

Station staff may not have a great amount of technical knowledge with regards to getting brake release/traction power on a train with a saloon door open. As such, they weren't necessarily lying or exaggerating intentionally but could have thought the train was about to move and a potentially dangerous situation was developing

 

[Nippy]

Must’ve been a booked 8 car, substituted as a 10 car which the signaller must not have been made aware about. Driver is at fault as they should know that p10 does not accommodate that train and should’ve questioned the route given by the signaller.

The driver gets no advance warning until the last signal. So by then it would be too late to stop at the signal.

 

[185]

The driver gets no advance warning until the last signal. So by then it would be too late to stop at the signal.

Mostly correct, except if a signal displays a wrong route or an undersize platform, driver must stop and question it. Competent driving means you don't put yourself in a position where you can't stop in time for that signal.

I've always been of the view that when incidents like this occur, quickly getting the passengers off through the local doors which are accommodated is the best option - meaning the passengers are out of the way, and ultimately not inconvenienced, and the risk of egresses pulled delaying the move further is removed. RSSB should probably lead the way on this one.

We've evacuated a 3 car 158 around 2001 in just 3 minutes using only the front door after the signaller forgot how many trains were on the platform. No kidnapping the punters silliness there.

 

[Falcon1200]

After another 10 or so minutes, we were then told that the train would have to go back out of the station and then return on Platform 8.

What a bizarre way of dealing with the situation! Make suitable announcements, allow passengers off through platformed doors, then shunt the empty train, instead of delaying everyone for 30 minutes and risk people detraining themselves anyway. Hopefully Trust will show the correct second arrival time at Euston, for Delay Repay purposes.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Guessing it was the new 730s, teething problems are to be expected but it just seems silly this situation. I'd definitely be concerned if I was in a unplatformed coach though. Although if its green leaver that's been pulled that train isn't going anywhere. Outsiders prespective would have been de train the front unit then get others to pass through. Still wouldn't help any ramp assists but most passengers would be free.

 

[357]

The driver gets no advance warning until the last signal. So by then it would be too late to stop at the signal.

The procedure is to stop the train as soon as possible, if you can't stop at the signal you put it in emergency. Not to simply take the route anyway...

 

[Tomnick]

Mostly correct, except if a signal displays a wrong route or an undersize platform, driver must stop and question it. Competent driving means you don't put yourself in a position where you can't stop in time for that signal.

This is absolutely not the case. There's one signal on my routes where you're approaching at, potentially, 80mph and don't know whether the correct route is set until you're far too close to be able to stop if it's wrong. Colton certainly used to be free greens both ways at 125mph! Am I not competent?

 

[MCR247]

This is absolutely not the case. There's one signal on my routes where you're approaching at, potentially, 80mph and don't know whether the correct route is set until you're far too close to be able to stop if it's wrong. Colton certainly used to be free greens both ways at 125mph! Am I not competent?

Without wanting to speak for them, I think @357’s post was talking about the specific situation of approaching the last signal before getting a platform at a terminal station. It certainly read that way to me in the context of the thread

 

[357]

This is absolutely not the case. There's one signal on my routes where you're approaching at, potentially, 80mph and don't know whether the correct route is set until you're far too close to be able to stop if it's wrong. Colton certainly used to be free greens both ways at 125mph! Am I not competent?

I sign Colton.

The positioning of the signal there is, frankly, horrific, with no banner repeaters and the positioning of the overhead stations - but surely your TOC would also tell you to stop as soon as possible if given a wrong route?

For me, while I can still get to where I need to be by taking either route (I sign both), the chances are that my guard only signs the mainline.

 

[swaldman]

It does seem odd to tell passengers they can't get off when the majority of the train is clearly in the platform. Even if SDO wasn't available for whatever reason, the green levers exist - as demonstrated!

Delaying the passengers for half an hour by taking them away from their destination platform to put them in a different platform smacks of prioritising the convenience of the railway over that of its customers, when the railway has messed up.

 

[pompeyfan]

It’s pretty poor that the ASDO is not set up on the 730s to allow the correct number of doors the be released conventionally and then move the passengers in the unaccommodated portions forward. Places like Alton, Portsmouth stations and Fratton are designed like this with trains 20 years older. I believe it would behave the same at Waterloo in the shorter platforms

 

[357]

It does seem odd to tell passengers they can't get off when the majority of the train is clearly in the platform. Even if SDO wasn't available for whatever reason, the green levers exist - as demonstrated!

Delaying the passengers for half an hour by taking them away from their destination platform to put them in a different platform smacks of prioritising the convenience of the railway over that of its customers, when the railway has messed up.

Yes I agree, during failures when I've had a 12 car train in an 8 car platform, before now I've drawn forward right up to the signal and then opened doors locally using the egress to let people out.

Theres not much to it, and it means you'll likely need a second person for dispatch if your train has no bodyside cameras, but it can be done.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2025 ==

It’s pretty poor that the ASDO is not set up on the 730s to allow the correct number of doors the be released conventionally and then move the passengers in the unaccommodated portions forward. Places like Alton, Portsmouth stations and Fratton are designed like this with trains 20 years older. I believe it would behave the same at Waterloo in the shorter platforms

Do the 730s have it fitted?
I know the 720s at c2c don't/didn't have it fitted as they don't see a need for it, despite the other benefits provided by the system that is fitted to the 720s at GA.

 

[Tomnick]

I sign Colton.

The positioning of the signal there is, frankly, horrific, with no banner repeaters and the positioning of the overhead stations - but surely your TOC would also tell you to stop as soon as possible if given a wrong route?

For me, while I can still get to where I need to be by taking either route (I sign both), the chances are that my guard only signs the mainline.

Yes, absolutely – but it's too late by then, of course, so either way you're having to change ends to go back outside.

We had this debate with ops standards and safety bods recently, in the context of a risk at a specific location, and agreed that once you're in the too-short platform, it's better to let passengers off wherever possible (e.g. SDO, local door, whatever) and then sort out whatever shunting is needed, rather than fight through to change ends and have them pulling egresses whilst you're trying to sort it out. Obviously a bit different if you're only just passing the protecting signal with the brake in emergency, but you could perhaps make a similar argument to get the train at least partially platformed rather than risking an uncontrolled evacuation whilst it's all getting sorted.

There was one a few months ago at Lime Street (ironically, given the controls of the same name!) where a DMU was brought into an occupied platform with not enough room. The driver couldn't have known, realistically. Unfortunately they left the train without realising that it hadn't fitted – in the absence of another driver to shunt it, it was just left where it was until ready to leave on its next working 20mins or so later, which must have been boarded using a local door only and started from beyond the signal at danger.

 

[dctraindriver]

This is absolutely not the case. There's one signal on my routes where you're approaching at, potentially, 80mph and don't know whether the correct route is set until you're far too close to be able to stop if it's wrong. Colton certainly used to be free greens both ways at 125mph! Am I not competent?

I don’t know the approach speeds to the terminus station at Euston but the approach speed to Waterloo is 15 and I’m sure Euston isn’t much different, so in this instance its on the driver to stop the train before being routed into a terminus platform and letting the signaller know. I’ve had this happen at Waterloo and I stopped in time to let them know. I also always call the signaller if I’m an 8 car coming into an occupied platform just to ensure its only a 4 car in situ as don’t need the hassle. Sometimes the signallers get frustrated you’ve called and asked but I know I’m potentially saving myself a meeting with a manager at a later date.

 

[mugam4]

After still no movement, one of the passengers then used the emergency door release and opened a set of doors. Just as they (and a lot of other passengers) were about to step off onto the platform the door was surrounded by railway staff telling everyone to get back/stay on the train as it was not safe to step onto the platform. They said the train could go any second and and if people were stepping off when the train moved there could be serious injuries! They then manually closed the doors again and finally we went back out and re-arrived 30 minutes late in Platform 11 (not 8 as advised).

A lot of urgency and staff to prevent the self-local-door-deboarding, but not enough urgency and staff to permit managed-local-door-deboarding - peculiar

 

[MCR247]

A lot of urgency and staff to prevent the self-local-door-deboarding, but not enough urgency and staff to permit managed-local-door-deboarding - peculiar

To be fair to them, I don’t think it’d necessarily be the platform staff that decide what to do with the train and its passengers

 

[357]

Sometimes the signallers get frustrated you’ve called and asked but I know I’m potentially saving myself a meeting with a manager at a later date.

I always ring up and have never had an issue. Most of the time they know why you are calling and their first words are something along the lines of "It's a 5 car Lumo in platform 3"

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2025 ==

To be fair to them, I don’t think it’d necessarily be the platform staff that decide what to do with the train and its passengers

Yes, to be fair unless told by the driver or guard then they are going to try and keep everyone onboard.

In this situation the traincrew take control and any platform staff will follow instructions given.

With the way training is nowadays I don't blame them for not knowing that the train couldn't move with a door egressed open.

 

[saismee]

Do the 730s have it fitted?
I know the 720s at GA don't/didn't have it fitted as they don't see a need for it, despite the other benefits provided by the system.

Forgive me if I'm wrong or mistaken, but I thought that GA 720s did have ASDO fitted. Only 9 out of 10 doors open when a 720 is stopped at the bay platform at Manningtree as the final door isn't able to fit. I'm not well-versed in the terminology or operations, so forgive me if I'm wrong!

 

[357]

Forgive me if I'm wrong or mistaken, but I thought that GA 720s did have ASDO fitted. Only 9 out of 10 doors open when a 720 is stopped at the bay platform at Manningtree as the final door isn't able to fit. I'm not well-versed in the terminology or operations, so forgive me if I'm wrong!

You're right and I got my TOCs mixed up, having worked for both!

 

[62484GlenLyon]

There was a similar situation yesterday with the 12 car 1T07, 06.10 Kings Lynn to Kings Cross, luckily without any consequences. I was on this train. The train came a normal stop at signal 2046. Although the front of the train was inside Gasworks tunnel I still had a mobile signal so I was able to see on OTT that the route was set into platform 10 which has an eight coach limit. The driver told us that there would be a short delay as we were waiting for a platform. The route into platform was cancelled and once 1D05, 08.03 to Leeds had cleared platform 7 1T07 proceeded in there.

Obviously, I don't know exactly the circumstances which led to this situation - 1T07 is booked 12 cars from Cambridge on Mondays to Thursdays - for everybody on board, except for a curious enthusiast, there was nothing to indicate the situation was anything other than the wait for a platform, as per the driver's announcement.

 

[Falcon1200]

I don’t know the approach speeds to the terminus station at Euston

Me neither, but I have been surprised (pleasantly) by the speed at which Pendolinos enter the platforms at Euston, which feels more than 15mph; May not be the same for all routes of course.

 

[357]

There was a similar situation yesterday with the 12 car 1T07, 06.10 Kings Lynn to Kings Cross, luckily without any consequences. I was on this train. The train came a normal stop at signal 2046. Although the front of the train was inside Gasworks tunnel I still had a mobile signal so I was able to see on OTT that the route was set into platform 10 which has an eight coach limit. The driver told us that there would be a short delay as we were waiting for a platform. The route into platform was cancelled and once 1D05, 08.03 to Leeds had cleared platform 7 1T07 proceeded in there.

Obviously, I don't know exactly the circumstances which led to this situation - 1T07 is booked 12 cars from Cambridge on Mondays to Thursdays - for everybody on board, except for a curious enthusiast, there was nothing to indicate the situation was anything other than the wait for a platform, as per the driver's announcement.

Everything done correctly by the driver in this situation.

 

[43066]

Recently there has been the same incident at Kings Cross (twice), St Pancras, Euston and maybe another one I have forgotten!

Indeed. Is there something in the water? Just need one to happen at Paddington now for all the 125mph London terminals to have had one.

The driver gets no advance warning until the last signal. So by then it would be too late to stop at the signal.

At the signal controlling entry to a dead end bay platform? Absolutely no chance you’d be unable to stop.

 

[800301]

Indeed. Is there something in the water? Just need one to happen at Paddington now for all the 125mph London terminals to have had one.

It’s happened at Paddington many times, although not recently that I know of where the route has been taken, Platform 14 is the only one with restriction of no more than an 8 car 387 or 5 car 800

 

[Nippy]

Indeed. Is there something in the water? Just need one to happen at Paddington now for all the 125mph London terminals to have had one.



At the signal controlling entry to a dead end bay platform? Absolutely no chance you’d be unable to stop.

Ok I bow to your knowledge. The speed from 0m43c is 25mph, and 40mph up to that point. I assumed if the route is set straight in with no approach control then by the time the driver saw the 9 or 10 in the route indicator they wouldn’t be able to stop at the signal.

I also don’t know why they couldn‘t detrain through the front unit to minimise the inconvenience.

oh and I’ve seen a colleague put an HST in 14 at Padd.