Train spotter sparks terrorist alert

[SouthEastern-465]

Astounding arrogance.:roll:



Just in the interests of balance, I'll add a link to this: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.html

While it's true that as such there is no right in law to take photographs at stations, I think that makes the practical (rather than legal) position perfectly clear. Enthusiasts are being invited to take photographs on stations by the owners of those stations. There are times when the law departs from common sense and needs to take a back seat. This is one of them. Are you seriously suggesting that a TOC would employ bully-boy tactics and prosecute somebody for trespass for having the temerity to take photos on a station having been invited to do so?! Your legal training may or may not extend to the role of the CPS - they consider something called "the public interest" when deciding which cases should go to trial....

Someone was curious of the law and "Old timer" anwsered the specific quiston without making a song or dance.

 

[Ferret]

There is a belief amongst some that there is a RIGHT to go onto Railway property to take photographs. I have tried to point out that there is NO such RIGHT in Law.

And of course you are quite correct, though the relevance is questionable. You touched on it in your first post by using the words 'custom and practice'. For years and years and years, enthusiasts have congregated on stations and taken photographs. It is only in recent times, since the advent of Islamic extremism/terrorism that there has been a serious problem. This of course is because there is a perceived need among the security services to be seen to be doing something and let's face it, enthusiasts are an easy target. And while you've accurately set out the legal position from the angle of the statute book, it's never that simple as I'm sure you're aware. Courts can interpret statutes in many ways, and not always in the literal. They could look at the Mischief rule and say "was it really Parliament's intention to prevent a trainspotter standing on a platform harming nobody when this was enacted?". The law is a complicated beast and not everything is black and white.

A person just cannot turn up and demand access to a station to take photographs as some in the enthusiast fraternity seem to believe.

They've no need to demand access! Taken from http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.html, the following is relevant:

"All Britain's Train Operating Companies and Network Rail welcome rail enthusiasts to their stations"

"At major stations please inform the Duty Station Manager of your presence. This will ensure that station staff are aware that you are on the station and they can go about their duties without concern as to your reasons for being there. At smaller stations you should ensure that you advise a member of the station staff of your activities."

Apart from in extreme circumstances (covered elsewhere in the guidelines to which I refer), having been invited to do so by the station owners themselves, enthusiasts are perfectly entitled to expect access to the station to take photographs.

I have not covered the taking of photographs into Private places because it I dont think it is very relevant here. It was aimed at protecting privacy. I hardly think a TOC/FOC is going to go down that route, do you ?

Not knowing the layout of the land where the OP took the original photograph that caused the Police to lose the plot, it may well have relevance. If he took that shot from a public right of way, was he committing an offence?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Someone was curious of the law and "Old timer" anwsered the specific question without making a song or dance.

He also ended his post with the following which concerned me.

I do hope it will stop the small minority who THINK they have RIGHTS to go photographing on railway property when such "rights" exist only by courtesy, and custom and practice.

Is there an axe to grind here?

I'll gladly confess that I am fed up to the back teeth of hearing of "Paul Smith had trouble photographing here" and "Tony Jones got hassled by the Police for writing down a number in a notebook". I'm sorry but rail enthusiasts have been carrying out their harmless activity for decades. Nobody has been blown up because of them but yet all of a sudden they're an easy target and by hook or by crook, those in authority or those who think they are seem to be trying to put a stop to what for many people is their means of escape from the real world of hustle and bustle.

A lot of what Old Timer wrote is clear and accurate but it's also very one sided and assumes that the laws of this land are black and white. I'm not seeking to create a 'song and dance' (as you put it) - merely bring a bit of balance to the discussion from the viewpoint of somebody who is very pro-photography.

 

[Old Timer]

Ferret
You are intelligent enough to know that I can find various threads on here about photographers trespassing on the railway to take photographs.

There has also been, if I have the right Forum of course, a post made by someone who was suggesting that he and anyone else who wanted, had a God-given right to go onto a railway station to take photographs.

I am not anti-photographer or indeed anti-railway enthusiast. I am a published photographer myself, HOWEVER...

The last time I had to remove a person who was tresspasing to take photographs was on a 125mph section of line where there was no clearance and I had to obtain an emergency line blockage of both lines to go and extricate this individual from the bushes where he was unsuccessfully hiding.

This individual was of the view that the operational railway is a place where he is perefectly entitled to go seemingly because HE pays my wages :roll::roll::roll: by virtue of being a taxpayer.

I am quite happy for responsible photographers to come onto the railway, and at times when asked I have facilitated photographers access to areas which they would not ordinarily gain access, albeit with appropriate safety arrangements made, when asked.

I, like yourself are depserately unhappy about the way that photographers are almost targeted by the Police, PCSOs and various other ancilliary "security" people. I also find some of the attitudes displayed by Network Rail and TOC staff be to less than acceptable. If one is to challenge such individuals then it should be from a position of a clear understanding of what one can do and what one cannot do. Arguments and disputes based on incorrect facts do a lot more harm than good and ultimately will lead to problems in the longer term.

This was the basis of my posting on here. If one is to have a dispute with a Police Officer, then you need to have a clear understanding of the legal position from which to do so.

As someone who takes a lot of photographs myself, I wanted to be in a position to challenge properly anyone who approached me with sound facts, hence why I did so much research.

As a result I now carry copies of various Police Guidance notes, excerpts from sections of the Terrorism Act, as well as statements made by the Home Office and Chief Constables about the legal right to take photographs.

In this way I can defend my corner as well as knowing exactly what my rights are when challenged by a Police Officer. So far they have either not bothered me or just shown a vague interest and been perfectly happy.

I fully expect however to meet one of the awkward ones in due course.

I will post some links to certain guidance which I think would be helpful for those who are not up to speed with things, what their rights are, once I sort out a replacement computer here. Those links and documents are on a hard drive which is currrently inaccessible.

I believe, and indeed hope, we are on the same side.

 

[Ferret]

Hiding in bushes?! Good grief. The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me, and it doesn't do us any favours! In this case I'd support a trespass prosecution....

As for members of TOC staff dealing with photography inappropriately, I've had encounters with a couple, and one of them when I was actually on duty myself!!!! Needless to say as a member of railway staff I can more than fight my own corner!!!! Thankfully I knew where I stood and each time have elicited apologies from customer relations teams/station managers but why I should have the bother is beyond me.:roll:

 

[Old Timer]

Unfortunately. old chap, it just goes to prove how bad things have become.

The days of just being able to set up in a corner of a platform somewhere and leaving others, and in turn being left in peace to get on with it are long gone.

I wonder what happens on thsoe stations which have long line CCTV ?

I guess one day there will be the sound of Police sirens as the Chief Constable's finest arrive en-masse

 

[JustinStacey.x]

I've seen plenty of Youtube videos where people are standing on the grass mere feet away from a high speed line with nothing to save them from a slip or fall from unfortunate placement of footing. I have also seen videos and photos where people are clearly past the warning sign on platforms which basically says 'go past here and you are trespassing' - some people just don't get it...

 

[Old Timer]

Oh I think they do but like a lot of 4x4 drivers they think the rules only apply to others.

I am becoming more and more convinced tht Society is actually now regressing in on itself, as these days nobody is intereested in anyone other than themselves.

They are full of their "rights" some of which are normally based on incorrect assumptions, but have no concept of personal responsibilities which come with them.

Thus we have people who openly defy, for example, NRs / TOCs request to make themselves known when on a station, or will happily go onto the track because it suits them to do so.

This arrogant attitude may ultimately lead to a ban being imposed particularly as it appears the same people are happy to abuse and argue with the station staff.

I myself have been abused when I have pointed out to people on the trackside that they have no right to be there, and as a result I now always call the Police and take vehicle numbers when I get this sort of attitude.

 

[Broken Viking]

Hail all!

The last time I had to remove a person who was tresspasing to take photographs was on a 125mph section of line where there was no clearance and I had to obtain an emergency line blockage of both lines to go and extricate this individual from the bushes where he was unsuccessfully hiding.

I've seen plenty of Youtube videos where people are standing on the grass mere feet away from a high speed line with nothing to save them from a slip or fall from unfortunate placement of footing. I have also seen videos and photos where people are clearly past the warning sign on platforms which basically says 'go past here and you are trespassing' - some people just don't get it...

Personally, my view in those cases is that if someone knowingly enters a dangerous area and gets maimed/killed by a passing train or piece of lineside equipment, then they only have themselves to blame for their injuries. Indeed...If Id've been driving a service due to pass by that point and there had been no-one else in the cab who might've been mentally scarred from witnessing such a thing, Id've probably called ahead and had ye invite the person concerned to stand inside (Or very near to) the loading gauge, and show him just what can happen when a train passes someone in close quarters at high speed! hock:

The sad fact of today's society though is that the Courts will still entertain even the most stupid of cases, and often will award damages to a party most blatantly at fault simply as a result of public view over "commercial favouritism in the Justice system". If I was a Judge myself and was asked to preside over a case whereby someone had wilfully trespassed on the railway and had become seriously injured by a passing train, I would probabally - After ascertaining the facts of the case as being truthful and complete - Throw out the defendants case with them having full liability for costs, along with a recommendation to the TOC concerned that they counter-sue for the effects that the incident would've had on the poor driver, any damage to the train involved, and any associated clean-up costs!

In my view, the only two cases where a person over the age of twelve could be considered as not being entirely at fault in the case of railway trespass would be:

1. Where the person in question has a psychological impairment that means they cannot genuinely understand and comprehend the dangers that exist on the railways, and
2. Where a person has technically "trespassed" onto railway property in an attempt to provide help and assistance in the event of a railway emergency (As the students and staff of a nearby school did during the Clapham rail disaster), or has performed the same in as careful and sensible a manner as possible to warn oncoming drivers of such an emergency further up the line.

In the former instance I would consider neither the railway nor the impaired person to be at concious fault, and in the latter I would note that the individuals offence of trespass was for a perfectly valid reason, and try to award any damages/costs due in the most sensitive and clearly justifiable manner.

Whilst I'm on the subject of trespass and trespass-related Deaths and injuries:...
One thing that I would really like to do is to come up with my own version of a Safety 365 video that would show - First hand, and from all viewpoints - The sheer horrors and Bloodshed that often occur whenever a trespasser's luck runs out. The main idea that I have at the moment is to create a video intended to be shown to anyone caught trespassing upon the railway, that would be so horrific and distressing that it would never fail to impress upon such people the importance of never ever trespassing on the railway again! hock:

Unfortunately the biggest headaches - Aside from the several tons of stage Gore and Blood that such a project would need () - Would be finding some way of shooting the video in as genuine an environment as possible (A 4-track mainline and a freight yard would be ideal!) with full permission and clearance to be in those places for such purposes, and to be able to undertake such a project (Despite it's eventual output) in complete safety.
Would NR ever be interested in being involved in the production of such a film, and indeed are there any kind of procedures that would allow such permitted filming on the railways without posing any form of risk to film crew, actors and/or services?

This individual was of the view that the operational railway is a place where he is perefectly entitled to go seemingly because HE pays my wages :roll::roll::roll: by virtue of being a taxpayer.

Evidently, no-one has informed the individual in question that the railway is now a privatised system. Back in the days of nationalised BR, the railways could technically be considered a taxpayer owned train set, and therefore the public had (If my facts are correct) a right to have a significant say in how the railways were run. However since privatisation, that is no longer the case.

Assuming that my understanding of the modern rules is correct; Whenever I am within a railway station (Or using a level crossing etc.) I am there with the implicit permission of Network Rail, provided that my business there involves my boarding/alighting a train, meeting/escorting someone else who is, and/or using other facilities about the station. This permission may be withdrawn at Network Rails discretion at any time and for any reason that does not directly break the Law (Such as racism, or disability discrimination etc), but unless informed otherwise I may use Network Rail's private facilities for their publicly intended purpose, provided that I conduct myself in a suitable and appropriate manner at all times. 8)

Farewell...
>> Death <<

 

[Old Timer]

There is actually a short video that uses photographs from various sites showing parts of bodies and the remains of people struck by trains, made for the UK Railway Industry as an anti-trespass project.

I am not sure how to find it, but it was rather good. I recall that it is somewhere on Youtube.

No doubt in these modern times soemone protested about mental damage or similar to those who watched it.

 

[90019]

The sad fact of today's society though is that the Courts will still entertain even the most stupid of cases, and often will award damages to a party most blatantly at fault simply as a result of public view over "commercial favouritism in the Justice system".

"Where there's a blame there's a claim"

I really hate this blame culture we've inherited from America, and the health and safety to go with it as well. Nothing's just an accident anymore, there's always someone to blame, even if it was completely their own fault, they'll find someone else to blame.
I know a bus driver involved in a crash caused by a car, not quite sure what happened, but the driver of the car was at fault, and the car driver was going to sue the bus driver because he'd lost his leg in the accident, even though he'd caused it :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am not sure how to find it, but it was rather good. I recall that it is somewhere on Youtube.

Any bets it got taken down because of complaints about it?

 

[poshbakerloo]

There was a guy that got banned from taking photos of trains at Macclesfield station not long ago...

I think its silly, if a terrorist was gonna set a bomb off they would do it at Waterloo or Saint Pancras...And also they would do it sneakily, not blatantly take photos of trains with there flashy camera and looking at all the numbers and getting excited when a HST passes!

 

[Old Timer]

Ah, yes, Macclesfield, a very high profile target indeed must be because its where a lot of the cast of Coronation Street live.

A place where the wife's car is a large 4x4, and the babysitter drives a BMW.

Hubby is "something" in Manchester, if there is such a thing or an airline pilot

Actually why anyone in sound mind would wish to go there strikes me as rather strange...maybe that is why he was banned

 

[poshbakerloo]

A place where the wife's car is a large 4x4, and the babysitter drives a BMW.

Hubby is "something" in Manchester, if there is such a thing or an airline pilot

There is some truth in that! lol...4 of my neighbours are air line pilots...

 

[scottm]

Quite often these days I try to make myself known to rail staff if I'm at a station to take some video clips. At Scotrail stations you ask for the "permission slip" that you are supposed to sign to say that you wont trespass, take flash photography, use your footage for commercial gain or chuck yourself in front of a train. I have never been refused but get answers such as:

"on you go, I havent seen you"
"should be ok, dont do anything daft"

Only once have I actually had to sign the form and that was at Cardonald, a black spot for suicides.

 

[Lower Quadrant]

One law for the lawless,and one for the Law...

 

[Dai.]

One law for the lawless,and one for the Law...

Just to point out, the railway magazine have featured this image in the editorial comment on page 3

 

[Broken Viking]

One law for the lawless,and one for the Law...

CopperNeds? Who'd have thought it? hock:

Although I have to say that protection of the travelling public and upholding of public order aren't the only reasons why I've considered joining the BTP in the past...

 

[Old Timer]

Judging by the way our local Police now dress....all in black, with a whole variety of implements strapped to them, I wonder if you would have to become a Goth to be able to join ?

I cannot imagine the transition would be that great

 

[Lower Quadrant]

Judging by the way our local Police now dress....all in black, with a whole variety of implements strapped to them, I wonder if you would have to become a Goth to be able to join ?

I cannot imagine the transition would be that great

The Goth hair would have to go,OT.Shaven heads seem to be the rule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just to point out, the railway magazine have featured this image in the editorial comment on page 3

I think the original was in a photography mag,Dai.

 

[321446]

It's ok. They ain't Proper Coppers! But it is a Proper Train!!!

Dons tin-hat, retires to bunker, awaits incoming.