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Train spotter sparks terrorist alert

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Old Timer

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Yet another.

It would be funny if it was not so sad.

Its amazing what priorities the Police have these days. Call them to a disturbance or an assault and you can wait all night, but mention a camera and the Force's finest will be racing down highways and byeways in the early hours to arrest some middle aged guy on holiday !

Shame they don't show the same enthusiasm to sorting out their failures to manage and co-ordinate their response to child protection issues, or feral youths terrorising local residents. :roll:
 

Ferret

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The sad thing is that these stories no longer amaze us!
What does annoy me is the constant refusal of the Police to admit they may have got it wrong. Instead we're subjected to self-justifying nonsense about how their actions were completely correct and proportional. And they wonder why public confidence in the Police is at rock bottom....
 

SouthEastern-465

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HaHa that made my day.

The police have not got anything else better to do than accuse and track down a train-spotter and cost the taxpayer yet again on pointless things.
Regards
 

jonnorail

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You have got to sit and have a slight giggle to yourself. I understand the proceedures the British Transport Police and National British Police have to undertake in the prevent of a terrorist attack within the railway environment. The reason for the slight giggle to yourself is because out of all the stories you, including myself have heard / read regarding railway enthusiasts / train spotters and the police in terms of the enthusiast / train spotter being a terrorist, how many have of the stories have actually came back as the enthusiast / spotter being a terrorist? NONE! Terrorism, as I am sure everyone on this forum is aware, is a very a serious issue across the whole of the UK and various countries around the world at the moment, but there is seriously no need for this kind of behaviour by the police at times. I can understand why the man and his sister refused to hand over / delete the images the man had taken and I can understand why police wanted to get rid of the photographs. I am on the man and sisters side this time.

Best Regards

Jonathan McGurk

Railway and Freelance Photographer

www.jonathanmcgurk.fotopic.net
 

Metroland

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Officers allegedly visited the home of Stephen White's sister Helen three times, rang her on her mobile phone in the early hours of the morning and finally stopped her car in the street after apparently tracing her from the number plate of a car the family were using.

The Whites, from Yatton, Somerset, were on a camping holiday in Carew, Pembrokeshire, south Wales with Miss White's children, Bryn, six, and Jessica, 11.

Mr White insisted that he was unaware that the locomotives he was photographing were linked with the Murco oil depot at Milford Haven and pointed out that much of the detail in the pictures is available on Google earth.

However CCTV cameras on the site captured the car number plate which was traced by police to his sister's home in Heckington, Lincs. On finding she was not in, officers are said to have returned three times before a neighbour passed on her mobile phone number.

The police then telephoned her in the early hours and requested that she take the photographs to a police station, the family claimed, adding that she had given an innocent explanation.

Miss White, 41, a civil servant, refused the request as she did not want to interrupt the family holiday. Police visited the campsite the next day and again their request was again rejected.

The next day, the family said, their car was pulled over by a police officer with his blue light flashing.

Mr White said: "We were treated and hunted as if we were terrorists, and a threat to national security, which was ridiculous.

"This has totally ruined the holiday, just because I'm a bit of a train geek who took pictures of some engines. The police were totally over the top. They went to my sister's house in Lincolnshire several times, and frightened my young niece and nephew.”

"They wanted to know what I'd been doing and I tried to explain I was just a trainspotter and wasn't some sort of Al Qaeda terrorist.

"It's an innocent photo, which you could find on Google Earth anyway. I've put a complaint in to the police."

Dyfed Powys Police confirmed that officers "sought an explanation from Mr White regarding his activities following a report of suspicious behaviour at an oil refinery site in West Wales.

"Following an explanation from him, no further action was taken."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-police-treated-him-like-terror-suspect.html
 

Aussie_Rail

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OMG that's unbelievable!! When I come to England next year it looks like I will be considered as the Aussie version of Osama Bin Laden!

Here, me and my best mate can go anywhere in the state take thousands of pictures without any hassle, and the main thing I photograph is train stations and other transport infrastructure, and I have had almost no issues from anyone about it.

I imagine that MI6 are viewing this thread now, and when I arrive over there, I'll probably have a tail for the whole time I'm there, as well as a black van parked across the street.

Although when photographing every aspect of a train station, signals, tracks, signs, buildings and any other features, you do get the odd look, but I do it discreetly so as not arouse any suspicion.

I guess, I'll have to play the innocent tourist card then.

Question:

Do railway staff have legal authority to confiscate your camera, demand pictures be deleted and take your details?

Do Police have the authority to do the same?

And is it an offense to take photographs of any type railway infrastructure? So could you be fined or imprisoned if you are seen a number of times taking pictures?
 

90019

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Do railway staff have legal authority to confiscate your camera, demand pictures be deleted and take your details?

Do Police have the authority to do the same?

They can ask you to delete the photos, but if they delete them or damage the camera in any way then it is criminal damage.

I doubt railway staff have the power to confiscate the camera, but the police may have.
 
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Aussie_Rail

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They can ask you to delete the photos, but if they delete them or damage the camera in any way then it is criminal damage.

I doubt railway staff have the power to confiscate the camera, but the police may have.
So say I was standing at the end of Kings Cross or something photographing the tracks or a train coming in etc and a staff member came up to me and demanded that I delete the pictures, can I refuse their request on grounds that I have a valid ticket to be there and that I am within the areas that I am aloud to be in?
 

GB

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Railway staff nor Police have the power to make you delete any images, they neither have the power to delete the pictures themselfs either. Sure they can "ask" but thats alll they can do.

Railway staff do not have the power to confiscate any equipment in your possession either, the police can only confiscate something if the item in question is used in a criminal activity or is used in such away it compromises safety.

If for example you are harmlessly taking pictures of trains, the police can't just come up to you and say..."Oi, you can't take pictures here so Im taking your camera", or "I demand you delete those images now!".

This is my understanding at least but I'd love to be proved wrong.
 

Daniel

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I don't think a member of staff can order you to delete photos... nothing in the byelaws that I know of says that a member of staff can ask you to do so...

At the end of the day, when the byelaws say you can take photos, and the only restrictions are laws not byelaws, (such as harassment of someone if you take photos of them, (they can clainm they're being intimidated or something)), if it is referring to a law, then a member of staff can't do anything really, it's got to be a policeman, I believe?
 

90019

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So say I was standing at the end of Kings Cross or something photographing the tracks or a train coming in etc and a staff member came up to me and demanded that I delete the pictures, can I refuse their request on grounds that I have a valid ticket to be there and that I am within the areas that I am aloud to be in?

You can refuse to delete them as they have no right to make you delete your photos.

Being asked to leave is a bit different, the stations are private property, and they have the right to ask you to leave, and I believe they can use "reasonable force" to make you leave, but I'll let someone else who understands a bit better clear that one up.
 

Geezertronic

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Best thing to do if you plan on taking photos at a station is to notify the station staff before you start. I guess someone else can advise how to go about this but that's the first thing people usually suggest just to make sure that you are covered.
 

monkey

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^^the problem is they can easily say no, and have said no. I can rememebr someone wantd to film something at my college so sort permission, and was turned down with no reason given, which I think is stupid as they are public institutions (talking about stations).

although I do think its a bit ridiculous, I think anyone with a camera seems to be treaed as such. I had to be careful to be descrete (which is hard with a massive slr) when taking pics of the caledonian sleeper at euston for my project...
 

Old Timer

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Right, just to tie up a few things together here, and clear up any myths.

Rights on Railway Property
Firstly, any Railway stations and all Railway property is considered to be Private Property for the the purposes law, hence the need for Byelaws.

Although the public are allowed access to specific parts of the railway infrastructure, i. e. stations, they are only allowed so for the purposes of using the services provided by the station operator. The situation thus in law is that a station is a place to which the public have access. It is NOT a Public Place.

The holding of a railway ticket does not constitute any RIGHT to enter or remain on the station other than for the purposes of catching a train. In the event that there is some time before the train is due, in law a passenger could be removed from the station/platforms until the train is due. There is no legal right to remain on the station for an extended time waiting a connecting train.

There is no legal right to enter or remain on a station with a platform ticket.

A platform ticket is legally issued to permit a person who is NOT travelling but is on business at the station to pass beyond the gateline, thus ensuring that they are legally there in the event of an accident or injury occurring.

Remaining on a station for extended periods is not permitted and can constitute an offence of vagrancy .

The holding of a ticket only entitles to holder to be in the relevant place for their train or for the business they have come to conduct. It does not of itself constitute any right to "wander around" the station complex.

Trespass
Any person, even a person holding a ticket can commit an act of Trespass whilst on a station, by entering an area where passengers are not allowed. In a recent case, it was judged that placing any part of one's body (arm, leg, etc) over the platform edge constitutes a technical legal trespass. This was related to a claim for injury when a person doing so was struck by a train but is now established in law.

Although the public have access to Railway property, this is access by invitation, and that invitation maybe withdrawn by an authorised person. Such an invitation exists ONLY for the purpose of joining/alighting to/from trains, or conducting business with the station operator or using facilities to which the public have legitimate access, eg, using the buffet, pub, shop, etc, etc.

NO part of the Railway is a PUBLIC Place for the purposes of Law. There is NO LEGAL RIGHT for any person to enter, be on, or remain on any Railway property.

A person may be asked to leave WITHOUT REASON being given by any authorised person. It constitutes an offence to remain on the property or to refuse to comply with such a request.

Photographs
There is NO LEGAL restriction against taking photographs in a Public Place. Note that a Railway is NOT a public Place.

There are certain restrictions in Law concerning the taking of photographs of certain categories of place, for example, Military and Government establishments being the obvious ones.

Note however that under Terrorism law other locations and premises may be prohibited by special order which will be signed by the Home Office. This could well include Railways.

There is no LEGAL restriction upon taking photographs of people in a public place, although there may be occasions and circumstances when a Model Release should be obtained from those photographed.


Deleting of Photographs/Confiscation of Equipment
No person (including security guards/staff, etc) has the right to demand that any photograph should be deleted, nor do they have the right to require you to hand over any equipment, nor may they confiscate any equipment. Any touching of a person constitutes assault.

No Police Officer may require you to delete any picture nor may they confiscate any property UNLESS it is confiscated in compliance to the Terrorism Act, in which case they have this power, but this should not normally apply to your average person.

Photographs on a camera or a memory card may only be destroyed by the issue of a Court Order authorised by a JUDGE.

Photographs on Railway Property
Whilst there is NO LEGAL RIGHT to take photographs on any aprt of the Railway, and there is NO legal raight of access to do so either (right of access is for the purposes outlined earlier).

Although there are some obvious issues with some members of staff who have been inadequately trained and instructed, both Network Rail and the TOCs operate a tolerant approach to the taking of photographs on stations.

Because stations are private property. either NR or the TOC can impose whatever restrictions they wish as and when they wish. This can result in a total prohibition. Legally they have this right, and it is also by virtue of this that they can place certain restrictions and requirements for the taking of commercial pictures.

Technically if you intend to sell a photograph taken at a station for publication, then you have to obtain permission in advance.

Photographs at Level crossings/public footpaths.
Level crossings and public footpaths across the railway are legally provided for the purposes of allowing people to cross the Railway. Technically a person using the crossing is not permitted to stop.

On that basis, technically you cannot take a photograph at a level or footpath crossing if you are inside the boundary fence, as stopping could constitute trespassing.

Stepping off the fooway surface is definitely trespassing.

You can be asked to remove yourself from the level crossing / footpath crossing.

Note also that if you stop your car close to a level crossing therre are also potential issues with regards to Road Traffic Offences, especially note that the holding area for restricted vehicles to stop in cannot be used for ordinary parking.


Photographs on Private Property- For example docks, harbours and private railway sidings
There is no legal right to enter private property and no legal right to take photographs on private property without the owners consent. Acccess may be granted subject to a prohibition on the taking of photographs, concert halls being a good example. If a person takes a photograph, legally the permission to be on the property is immediately withdrawn from that time and the person can be asked or made to leave.

This is the best synopsis that I can give you.

I do have some links and some document downloads that can be carried, and I would suggest that all photographers do so, as their is a total lack of public understanding of the rights of photographers, as well as amongst the Police and ESPECIALLY so amongst PCSOs.

I will post these as soon as I can get access to my computer proper.

I am sorry if a lot of this sounds very legalese, actually it is but it is necessary to be properly informed.

Obviously there is a fair degree of leeway that is given by The Railway Industry and everyone should be aware so that it is not spoilt by those who abuse it or staff.

For the avoidance of doubt I have received legal training in Railway law, and I have researched the remainder, including Home Office documentation and checked out facts down to Police Operational Orders level

Please do not blame the messenger if you disagree with what is set out above, and please do not try to enter into a debate with me about it.

I do hope it will stop the small minority who THINK they have RIGHTS to go photographing on railway property when such "rights" exist only by courtesy, and custom and practice.
 
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The thing that gets me is - what the frig has terrorism got to do with cameras ? Last I checked, terrorists came into railways wearing bombs, not a camera. And it's not as if they turn up an hour earlier to take some snaps before blowing the place to kingdom come.
 

krus_aragon

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There is no legal right to remain on the station for an extended time waiting a connecting train.

That could collide rather nicely with a ticket (and thus contract) that does not allow break of journey. Your connection can be anything up to two hours, can't it?
 

Ferret

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Please do not blame the messenger if you disagree with what is set out above, and please do not try to enter into a debate with me about it.

Astounding arrogance.:roll:

I do hope it will stop the small minority who THINK they have RIGHTS to go photographing on railway property when such "rights" exist only by courtesy, and custom and practice.

Just in the interests of balance, I'll add a link to this: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.html

While it's true that as such there is no right in law to take photographs at stations, I think that makes the practical (rather than legal) position perfectly clear. Enthusiasts are being invited to take photographs on stations by the owners of those stations. There are times when the law departs from common sense and needs to take a back seat. This is one of them. Are you seriously suggesting that a TOC would employ bully-boy tactics and prosecute somebody for trespass for having the temerity to take photos on a station having been invited to do so?! Your legal training may or may not extend to the role of the CPS - they consider something called "the public interest" when deciding which cases should go to trial....
 

Old Timer

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Astounding arrogance.:roll:

I am sorry you have decided to adopt that interpretation. That is not what was meant as I am sure you know anyway.

I am also pretty sure that you know that there are no end of people who will happily pick some point up and try to make a debate out of it. I have no interest in getting into a debate about semantics and individual's own interpretations as to what is right or wrong in their own opinion.

I have set out the facts as far as I have been able to establish and confirm them. I would prefer not to have to defend myself against those who disagree, its negative and serves no purpose, hence the comment. I knew that whatever way I wrote it, someone would find a reason to make the accusation.
 
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Broken Viking

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Hail all! <D
This is yet another of those stupid things that proves that our country has well and truly become a Police state - More concerned about being "Politically correct" instead of doing what they're supposed to be doing - Fighting real crime. :roll:
One thing that I would be very tempted to ask: If Mr. White had happened to be of Indian or African origin, would he have been pursued and harassed nearly as badly as he was? :?:

As a MetalHead, I often tend to wear a lot of unconventional clothing, including studded arm-bands and gloves. Despite what my appearance might suggest to the contrary though, I'm a fully law-abiding citizen with full respect for social order and proper behaviour. :!:
Last summer whilst visiting Southampton city centre, I was stopped by a Police officer, subjected to a fairly intensive search, and had two key-chains confiscated - Despite the fact that I complied with the officers questions and instructions at all times. The reason why I'd been stopped in the first instance? Apparently, my appearance was such that I was considered to be a possible threat to public order, and a few people in the city centre had apparently felt intimidated by the way in which I dress! <(

Now don't get me wrong, I have to say that - For the most part - The Police Force do a good job in keeping violent crime down, and they are a most valuable asset to the country. On the same token however, they really should aim more of their efforts into tackling things that obviously constitute a crime...And if someone *might* be performing terrorist reconnaissance, there are other background checks (Country and area of birth, date of entry into UK, known links to terrorist, political or religious organisations etc.) that can easily be performed before a raid on an innocent family is ordered. :idea:

As a child, I was bought up to have a very strong degree of respect for the Police, and to always obey instructions given by Police officers for whatever reasonable purpose they may have...But I have to say that every time I hear of silly and avoidable incidents like this, my faith in the Police goes down another degree.
How long will it be until I have no respect or regard for the Police whatsoever? I can't say at this stage, but such a time may well come soon if the PC-brigade keep pushing their bureaucratic nonsense...And I'd be willing to lay a fiver that 90% of the UK share that view! :shock::roll:

Farewell... <D
>> Death <<
 

Old Timer

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Totally agree with you Death

My youngest is a goth and he has some "interesting" friends, indeed to look at them is sometimes quite .....errrr

To be honest they are absolutely lovely people, and I quite enjoy going down to the local with a group of them for a drink. It certainly paints an interesting image I must say, and the looks one gets are quite amusing. I suspect some people think I have been kidnapped and forced to buy them drinks under threat ! :lol::lol::lol:.

I guess the ability to look beyond the image is maybe something that comes with age ?

Take care my friend and keep heart, not all us oldies are blinkered !
 

monkey

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Hail all! <D
One thing that I would be very tempted to ask: If Mr. White had happened to be of Indian or African origin, would he have been pursued and harassed nearly as badly as he was? :?:
...yes. theres numerous stories of people of ethnic minorities being harrased for trivial things...
 

Ferret

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I am also pretty sure that you know that there are no end of people who will happily pick some point up and try to make a debate out of it. I have no interest in getting into a debate about semantics and individual's own interpretations as to what is right or wrong in their own opinion.

I have set out the facts as far as I have been able to establish and confirm them. I would prefer not to have to defend myself against those who disagree, its negative and serves no purpose, hence the comment

Au contraire, if you read my post, you will see the words 'in the interests of balance'. My concern is that your post infers that photographers have no business whatsoever being on stations and risk prosecution on the whim of a member of station staff by being there when in reality that isn't the case. I didn't make a posting just to pick an argument for the sake of it and because I've nothing better to do as you arrogantly suggest. Yes, you talk of a tolerant approach currently being taken (and suggest that could be reversed at any time) but the truth of the matter goes further than that - enthusiasts are openly invited to be present on stations to take photos and write down numbers. Can you imagine the ridicule that a TOC would be laid open to if they sought a prosecution in these circumstances?

I also note you haven't covered the legalities of taking a photo of something that is on private property whilst the photographer is stood in a public place. This may have some relevance to the original post in this topic.....
 
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Old Timer

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There is a belief amongst some that there is a RIGHT to go onto Railway property to take photographs. I have tried to point out that there is NO such RIGHT in Law.

Railways are Private Property. If the Operators choose to allow people to go onto stations to take photographs or numbers then fine. No-one objects to that and I have certainly never tried to suggest that in itself is wrong or should be prohibited.

A person just cannot turn up and demand access to a station to take photographs as some in the enthusiast fraternity seem to believe.

I have not covered the taking of photographs into Private places because it I dont think it is very relevant here. It was aimed at protecting privacy. I hardly think a TOC/FOC is going to go down that route, do you ?

I have tried to be helpful in setting out what I have established. I cannot, nor do I wish to, become involved in debates about the technicalities and people's differing views as to what is right or wrong.
 
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