Train splitting before multiple units (steam days)

[frankmoh]

Here's a list of daily services from New Beckenham station in 1912.

From	To	Route	Number per day	Notes
Charing Cross	Beckenham Junction or Addiscombe	via Cannon Street & London Bridge	10	Train splits at New Beckenham
Charing Cross	Addiscombe	via Cannon Street and London Bridge	2
Charing Cross	Addiscombe	via London Bridge	2
Charing Cross	Beckenham Junction	via London Bridge	2
Charing Cross	Addiscombe/Beckenham Junction & Orpington	via London Bridge	1	Train splits at New Beckenham
Cannon Street	Beckenham Junction & Orpington	via London Bridge	12
Cannon Street	Addiscombe	via London Bridge	4
Cannon Street	Beckenham Junction	via London Bridge	3
Cannon Street	Selsdon	via London Bridge	1
Cannon Street	Edenbridge	via London Bridge	1
St Pauls (Blackfriars)	Beckenham Junction	via London Bridge	1	Terminates

Aside from lamenting the fact that there aren't any more stopping services that go between the Hayes line and Chatham Main Line (and also Edenbridge via the Crowhurst Junction), I have to ask how train splitting worked back in the steam days. It could also be applicable to modern-day locomotive services, but I feel like it would be less interesting.

 

[StephenHunter]

Uncouple the sections, have the first one head off and then have another locomotive parked in a siding attach to the rear section. You'd need someone to go down into the tracks and disconnect the pipes etc.

The carriage diagrams would have pre-formed groups of carriages that would be used in pairs or even trios. You would need a "brake" carriage in each one.

 

[Rescars]

Uncouple the sections, have the first one head off and then have another locomotive parked in a siding attach to the rear section. You'd need someone to go down into the tracks and disconnect the pipes etc.

Not forgetting to couple up the second loco, conduct brake test on both portions and hang a tail lamp on the back of the first portion.

 

[Harpo]

The short answer for steam (and diesel) days splitting, attaching and reforming was usually station pilots and shunters (human version).

Pre-privatisation, station staff combined ops and retail work and did everything a MOM would do nowadays plus train ops.

 

[30907]

New Beckenham had a centre road pre electrification which presumably helped with combining the equivalent up workings.

Splitting and joining of hauled trains continued well into the diesel/electric era in the same manner. I think it's now confined to the Caley sleeper.

 

[frankmoh]

New Beckenham had a centre road pre electrification which presumably helped with combining the equivalent up workings.

Splitting and joining of hauled trains continued well into the diesel/electric era in the same manner. I think it's now confined to the Caley sleeper.

Wonder when they stopped splitting at New Beckenham?

 

[30907]

Wonder when they stopped splitting at New Beckenham?

The late Andrew Hadjucki, Railways of Beckenham, states that the through road was removed on electrification having been little used since 1916, so a typical WW1 economy measure. The 1922 Bradshaw shows one possible join/split working each weekday afternoon, but even that might have been a shuttle; there were other peak-hour trains to/from the Junction but they ran complete.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The short answer for steam (and diesel) days splitting, attaching and reforming was usually station pilots and shunters (human version).

Pre-privatisation, station staff combined ops and retail work and did everything a MOM would do nowadays plus train ops.

That comment is rather sweeping. For ordinary ‘porters’, shunters, ticket barrier staff and so on they tended to only perform a limited range of rolls. Quite a few very good and willing station staff were medically restricted in some way and could never go on the line. Even in the 1970s I recall a Leading Railman at a single-staffed station on my patch who suffered from epileptic attacks. He was banned from going near the track and was essentially confined to the upstairs ticket office building. Nevertheless he had gone on the line to assist a ‘distressed individual’. The station was near a facility handling people in that sort of condition. On that occasion he was OK and recognised as a hero.
Not long afterwards there was a burst pipe under the station and he came out to help me find the Stop cock and meter. He then had an episode while I was with him and I had to convey him to assistance. It really made me realise at a very early stage in my career how ‘close to the wind’ traditional old BR was sailing.

 

[Harpo]

That comment is rather sweeping. For ordinary ‘porters’, shunters, ticket barrier staff and so on they tended to only perform a limited range of rolls.

I did try not to get into the weeds! Before privatisation there were no MOMs or equivalent and generally it was Senior Railman/Chargeman and above on stations who did the on-track stuff including point winding and clipping, coupling, brake tests, single line working, fatalities etc..

A good many of those in the Senior Railmen/Shunter grades were also passed in guards duties to do any shunts that became yard-to-yard trips.

 

[The Pelican]

An analagous operation- a loco swap, from an electric loco to a steam one- happened on the Metropolitan line at Rickmansworth, at the then end of the electrified Metropolitan mainline section. RM Web had a good thread on it- it was performed very quickly, in a similar way to modern EMUs dividing at Woking.: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/74892-steam-electric-traction-changeover-on-the-metropolitan-query/

 

[Magdalia]

I have to ask how train splitting worked back in the steam days.

Joining was more complicated than splitting, requiring a propelling move.

 

[The exile]

Joining was more complicated than splitting, requiring a propelling move.

With proficient staff it could still be quite quick. Carstairs joining moves never seemed that tedious.

 

[Magdalia]

With proficient staff it could still be quite quick. Carstairs joining moves never seemed that tedious.

Carstairs was less difficult than most because the portions arrived from opposite directions.

 

[StoneRoad]

Anyone know if they had all this at Dovey Junction when splitting / joining Pwllheli / Aberystwyth trains back in the day ?

I recall quite a palaver back in the early 1980s with DMUs at Dovey Junction / Machynlleth - on one occasion us pax ended up waiting in several inches of snow on the platform whilst the shunting took place !

 

[30907]

Anyone know if they had all this at Dovey Junction when splitting / joining Pwllheli / Aberystwyth trains back in the day ?

The Down trains (ie the Cambrian Coast Express and a SO Manchester) split at Mach; the Up trains combined at DJ which was straightforward because the trains came in on separate platforms. Unfortunately by the time I visited the area the split was no more
The bigger difficulty was crossing trains there which required shunting in and out of the loop if both trains were booked to stop - that only disappeared with the platform extension of recent years.

I recall quite a palaver back in the early 1980s with DMUs at Dovey Junction / Machynlleth - on one occasion us pax ended up waiting in several inches of snow on the platform whilst the shunting took place !

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Exeter Central had an efficient arrangement with long platforms and scissor crossings to and from the through roads at the midpoint. This enabled the various portions of trains such as the 'Atlantic Coast Express' and others to be joined / split easily and locos added / released as required. Newton Abbot had a similar arrangement for the Torbay and Plymouth / Cornish portions.

 

[midland1]

Exeter Central had an efficient arrangement with long platforms and scissor crossings to and from the through roads at the midpoint. This enabled the various portions of trains such as the 'Atlantic Coast Express' and others to be joined / split easily and locos added / released as required. Newton Abbot had a similar arrangement for the Torbay and Plymouth / Cornish portions.

Rugby and Crewe had similar set ups.

 

[Taunton]

Exeter Central had an efficient arrangement with long platforms and scissor crossings to and from the through roads at the midpoint. This enabled the various portions of trains such as the 'Atlantic Coast Express' and others to be joined / split easily and locos added / released as required. Newton Abbot had a similar arrangement for the Torbay and Plymouth / Cornish portions.

Exeter Central had a further advantage that all Up trains being joined, and all portions of these, had a banking engine on the rear up from St Davids, which would propel portions forward once the train loco escaped via the centre crossover.

Newton Abbot I recall as having the Torbay portion both ways at the London end. When joining this arrived first, the Plymouth portion arrived behind it, that loco was released by the centre crossover, and the Torbay portion then set back.

 

[Rescars]

We ex

Exeter Central had a further advantage that all Up trains being joined, and all portions of these, had a banking engine on the rear up from St Davids, which would propel portions forward once the train loco escaped via the centre crossover.

Newton Abbot I recall as having the Torbay portion both ways at the London end. When joining this arrived first, the Plymouth portion arrived behind it, that loco was released by the centre crossover, and the Torbay portion then set back.

We explored similar manoeuvres at Worcester Shrub Hill on this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/manoeuvres-at-worcester-c1970.298406/

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Exeter Central had a further advantage that all Up trains being joined, and all portions of these, had a banking engine on the rear up from St Davids, which would propel portions forward once the train loco escaped via the centre crossover.

Newton Abbot I recall as having the Torbay portion both ways at the London end. When joining this arrived first, the Plymouth portion arrived behind it, that loco was released by the centre crossover, and the Torbay portion then set back.

How did Taunton handle Minehead and Ilfracombe portions on the Up - I never got there in the glory days of Summer Saturdays? Okehampton was an interesting one - the Bude / Padstow portions on the Up were pulled into the Military Sidings pending the arrival of the Plymouth portion.

I think the biggest faff was at Preston, after electrification in 1974 between Weaver Jcn and Scotland. Manchester and Liverpool trains to Glasgow and Edinburgh combined as one train between Preston and Carstairs requiring much marshalling at the former including a traction change (diesel / electric). This was on a layout ill-suited to it and which did much to make service non-competitive. Of course, Manchester and Liverpool to Preston should have been electrified in the first place - happily now resolved after only 40 years.

 

[Taunton]

How did Taunton handle Minehead and Ilfracombe portions on the Up - I never got there in the glory days of Summer Saturdays? Okehampton was an interesting one - the Bude / Padstow portions on the Up were pulled into the Military Sidings pending the arrival of the Plymouth portion.

When there was a joining, the first arrival went into the short Up Arrival bay, then Platform 8, alongside Railway Street. The second portion ran into the mainstream Up Relief platform. The west end pilot, which was an all day duty, a Pannier Tank until 1962, thereafter one of D4163-5, then attached and drew back the coaches from the bay and propelled then onto the rear of the second portion. This released the first arrival train loco.

The shunting of trains, and train engines, across the west end of the station was an all day affair, terminating trains from both directions being drawn back here, either onto the Down Relief or into sidings, and then reversing to their departure platform, and it carried on into dmu days. A nuisance was there were not sufficient crossovers to get from the Up Arrival to the Down Departure bays in one shot, they had to saw across in a W-pattern shunt.

 

[Western Sunset]

Wolverhampton Low Level also saw much attaching/detaching, as well as loco changes.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

How did Taunton handle Minehead and Ilfracombe portions on the Up - I never got there in the glory days of Summer Saturdays? Okehampton was an interesting one - the Bude / Padstow portions on the Up were pulled into the Military Sidings pending the arrival of the Plymouth portion.

I think the biggest faff was at Preston, after electrification in 1974 between Weaver Jcn and Scotland. Manchester and Liverpool trains to Glasgow and Edinburgh combined as one train between Preston and Carstairs requiring much marshalling at the former including a traction change (diesel / electric). This was on a layout ill-suited to it and which did much to make service non-competitive. Of course, Manchester and Liverpool to Preston should have been electrified in the first place - happily now resolved after only 40 years.

Not sure it was that different to what’s being described for other locations without central scissors? Manchester portion arrived into platform 2, Liverpool portion into platform 3 stopping halfway along. Manchester portion shunted onto front after Liverpool loco released. Faff was then needing to shunt off the Manchester loco and replace with an electric. Don’t remember it taking that long in practice?

 

[Harpo]

Faff was then needing to shunt off the Manchester loco and replace with an electric. Don’t remember it taking that long in practice?

In BR days the almost standard run-round allowance was 10 minutes. Loco changes depended on local layout but 5-10 minutes was fairly usual with many places down to 2 or 3 minutes in steam days (Amersham has been mentioned elsewhere.)

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

In BR days the almost standard run-round allowance was 10 minutes. Loco changes depended on local layout but 5-10 minutes was fairly usual with many places down to 2 or 3 minutes in steam days (Amersham has been mentioned elsewhere.)

What I can’t remember anymore is where all the locos got shunted to and from. For the loco change on Blackpool trains it was simply electric shunted off to the north alongside the diesel which then replaced the electric. Electric shunted into the dock at north end of platform 3. I’m guessing that’s where one (or both) of the diesels ended up after arriving from Manchester/Liverpool but also have vague memory one may have run South via platform 4 and then into the south end bays which were never used for scheduled trains back then.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Not sure it was that different to what’s being described for other locations without central scissors? Manchester portion arrived into platform 2, Liverpool portion into platform 3 stopping halfway along. Manchester portion shunted onto front after Liverpool loco released. Faff was then needing to shunt off the Manchester loco and replace with an electric. Don’t remember it taking that long in practice?

Looking at the '76 / '77 timetable, for example, the 12.41 Liverpool Lime Street to Edinburgh portion and the 12.58 Manchester Victoria to Edinburgh portion were at Preston for 18 min and 10 min respectively. As time went on separate trains were run to reduce the problem, then the Liverpool part was dropped and then they went altogether. Today, of course, with full electrification the service is reinstated and booming.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Looking at the '76 / '77 timetable, for example, the 12.41 Liverpool Lime Street to Edinburgh portion and the 12.58 Manchester Victoria to Edinburgh portion were at Preston for 18 min and 10 min respectively. As time went on separate trains were run to reduce the problem, then the Liverpool part was dropped and then they went altogether. Today, of course, with full electrification the service is reinstated and booming.

The interesting thing is that until about 40 years ago Liverpool would be traditionally linked with Edinburgh and Manchester with Glasgow. This was even how the competing long distance coach services were organised. Yet now that a Liverpool to Scotland link has been reinstated it goes to Glasgow not Edinburgh. Would have thought that nowadays Edinburgh was even more of a draw for travellers (especially leisure) than in the past but perhaps paths are more difficult in and out of Waverley. The Liverpool-Glasgow trains actually have unattractive paths north of Carstairs (I think they actually get overtaken?).

 

[LickeyIncliner]

Splitting and joining of hauled trains continued well into the diesel/electric era in the same manner. I think it's now confined to the Caley sleeper.

Did the transition from steam locomotives to diesel or electric ones itself make any difference to train splitting/joining? (As distinct from the change in the braking and train heating systems to be connected or disconnected)

 

[Bevan Price]

I sometimes used the first Liverpool/Manchester - Scotland servixe of the day in the 1970s. The Manchester portion ran into Platform 3 at Preston, and the Liverpool portion ran into Platform 2; the local Class 08 then shunted the Liverpool portion onto the back of the Manchester portion..
Meanwhile, the Manchester portion loco was detached and ran forward clear of the platform, and the replacement (electric) loco backed down onto the front of the train. (Usuially the replacement loco came out of the siding connected to the north end of Platform 3.

(In the final years of loco haulage, diesel haulage often continued north of Preston. )

Southbound it was more difficult at Preston. The electric loco was detached in Platform 4 and ran clear of the station; the first replacement loco (usually for Manchester) backed onto the train, and took it forward. The second replacement usually came out of a south end bay, and coupled to the rear (usually Liverpool) portion. Station overtime was common before the rear portion departed.

Prior to electrification, the diesel or steam loco took one portion forward with no loco change, and a replacement loco came out of a south end bay and coupled to the rear portion.

 

[StephenHunter]

Did the transition from steam locomotives to diesel or electric ones itself make any difference to train splitting/joining? (As distinct from the change in the braking and train heating systems to be connected or disconnected)

Many of these changes were to multiple units, where you just needed to change ends of the vehicle.