Train services through the night

[GB]

I maybe wrong, but I don't think it is permitted to have in use passenger stock marshalled in a freight train on NR infrastructure.

 

[<name here>]

There's definately a market for overnight trains between London and Brighton, I've been standing on the last one out of Victoria before although there is now a Three Bridges-Brighton night bus. The FCC trains from London Bridge-Three Bridges tend to be fairly quiet south of Croydon, at a guess I'd say 40-50 people get off at Three Bridges so not many people for an 8 car train. A lot of my friends are pretty jeolous that I can stay in London as late as I like without having to worry about getting home. It would probably work for a lot of commuter towns imo.

 

[jon0844]

I agree, however a tthe moment it is a disincentive for TOC's to run through the night or early morning services, along with the other factors like the extra costs.

Earlier this year, our local buses (a circular service covering two estates and the railway station) were cut back like many around the UK. Firstly, they merged two routes into one and then they aimed to have it stop at around 6.30pm!

We (as in me, other bus users and our local councillor) successfully argued to Herts County Council that a service that couldn't get people home would impact on those using the remaining buses in the day. Who would take a bus somewhere when you couldn't get it back (well, unless you never left late from work, or got delayed etc).

[As an aside; I made sure to make it clear that I saw this as a possible attempt to deliberately lower daytime usage to justify dropping the service completely - something the local press picked up on. Hopefully this helped ensure they couldn't then do exactly that!]

To cut a long story short, the service was reinstated until 2305 on all but Sunday nights - making it one of a very small number of buses running that late. It has had an extended route to help increase usage, taking in the shopping centre and University campus. All in all it was a big success, after bean counters had simply thought to cut without thinking of the consequences.

From the 4th September, the service will now get an extra bus to increase the service from 2 buses per hour to 3 per hour in the peaks (7-9.30am / 4.30-7.30pm). It will also return to running until 2305 on Sunday nights too.

All in all a major result - and now it's in OUR hands to ensure the bus continues to be used!

Anyway, my point is if people know they can rely on a train to get them home after a evening out - even if just at weekends - they're more likely to use the train to travel in the first place. If you knew the trains finished at 2230, you wouldn't be a customer in the first place! I am surprised some TOCs haven't realised that, but perhaps they have but are worried about the other issues raised.

Late trains may not have enough custom in their own right to justify their operation, but they would increase usage at other times by being there. Accountants probably can't see that though, and I suspect the industry is mainly run by accountants.

 

[Greenback]

There is call for a later service back to London on the Hertford loop so would welcome a service leaving about 00:12 which would use stock going ECS to the depot.

I think that there are too many ECS trains running around, some of which at least could well carry passemgers.

Talking about late night trains, why do people asume that they are alway poorly used. Anyone who's ever been on the 23:18 Birmingham New Street to Hednesford on a Friday or Saturday night will tell you otherwise.
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And I can remeber back in the early 90's when the last Hednesford train used to leave New Street at 18:00. That was fun, Not. Especially when there were no buses north of Walsall after a similar time.

There are many late evening trains that are well used, and not just on Friday and Saturday nights. I have argued previosuly for many more services, but we have to recognise the difficulties and expense of running trains throught the night.

Anyway, my point is if people know they can rely on a train to get them home after a evening out - even if just at weekends - they're more likely to use the train to travel in the first place. If you knew the trains finished at 2230, you wouldn't be a customer in the first place! I am surprised some TOCs haven't realised that, but perhaps they have but are worried about the other issues raised.

Late trains may not have enough custom in their own right to justify their operation, but they would increase usage at other times by being there. Accountants probably can't see that though, and I suspect the industry is mainly run by accountants.

I suspect that as well, TOC's are certainly not keen on taking commercial risks!

I am all in favour of late night trains, we are able to return from an evening in Cardiff on the last train at 2307 tonight. This is far better than many people have, but still too early in my book, especially on the weekend. But I still think that later trains will struggle to cover their costs, as I think it's unlikely that the majority of the later trains do at the moment.

 

[eMeS]

Earlier this year, our local buses (a circular service covering two estates and the railway station) were cut back like many around the UK. Firstly, they merged two routes into one and then they aimed to have it stop at around 6.30pm!...

I live in Milton Keynes, and two years ago decided to have a day out in Cambridge using public transport - instead of using my car. Getting to Cambridge wasn't too bad apart from spending around an hour in St Neots due to the police diverting all the A428 bypass/main road traffic through St Neots town centre.

Our return journey was also memorable for the wrong reasons. When we got to Bedford at around 20.10 we discovered that we had missed the last X5 to Milton Keynes which had left at 20.00. To my surprise there are no other bus/coach services between the two towns. So we walked to Bedford Midland Road and got the train - eventually getting home at around 23.20 after a long walk from Milton Keynes station to the Stantonbury area.

I've gone back to using my car.

 

[Holly]

I maybe wrong, but I don't think it is permitted to have in use passenger stock marshalled in a freight train on NR infrastructure.

Obviously major changes would be required. Not the least of which is steps for off-platform loading/unloading. And the two car set (or whatever it is) would have to provide its own power for passenger heating etc.. It quickly becomes unworkable except for very long journeys.

 

[route:oxford]

Obviously major changes would be required. Not the least of which is steps for off-platform loading/unloading. And the two car set (or whatever it is) would have to provide its own power for passenger heating etc.. It quickly becomes unworkable except for very long journeys.

Just to be clear, I wasn't intending passengers board or disembark from a service within a freight depot. A freight service from southhampton to will pass through a number of major cities enroute.

 

[dzug2]

the railways should be run as a loss-making public service.

.

Even if you accept that then there still has to be some relationship between demand and services - there's no point in running empty or near empty services just for the sake of it. To take an example (exaggerated for effect) you wouldn't run a service every 10 minutes 24x7 on the Central Wales line.

 

[radamfi]

There's definately a market for overnight trains between London and Brighton, I've been standing on the last one out of Victoria before although there is now a Three Bridges-Brighton night bus. The FCC trains from London Bridge-Three Bridges tend to be fairly quiet south of Croydon, at a guess I'd say 40-50 people get off at Three Bridges so not many people for an 8 car train. A lot of my friends are pretty jeolous that I can stay in London as late as I like without having to worry about getting home. It would probably work for a lot of commuter towns imo.

40-50 is more than I thought! I have to admit that I find it strange that FCC continue to operate this service given that there is already a Victoria service although I'm not complaining! It does seem rather unfair that the Brighton Line gets so many night trains and other busy lines get nothing!

 

[Toots]

First off,it's nothing to do with the unions as to whether there is a lack of night services,on the contrary they fight every attempt to discontinue the sleeper services.The fact is many passenger trains continue well into the night as they return to their sheds and indeed many turns start or end during the night depending on the service that has to be worked.
No, the reason is funding,it's no more compicated than than that.In the case of provincial services,we rely heavily on the the passenger executives to fund the various loss making services and diagrams are already incredibly tight.
I was at a conference in which a guy from Northern gave us the problems they face with diagramming and even to get an extra few carriages to simply add to the existing services is a major task,and if say Yorkshire or Liverpool pay for extra,thats where they go,irregardless of the shortages in Manchester for example, or somewhere else that hasn't provided the extra funding ,which is understandable of course,but it gives an idea of the difficulties that can arise with any proposal for new services

 

[exile]

It costs a lot to run a train, even if you could run it without driver or guard.

In the 80s most long distance routes had at least one all-night service but people are in general reluctant to travel by train overnight whether in sleepers or sitting up - unless train services could undercut overnight coaches and corner the backpacker market - which is unlikely. Even in Europe overnight services are in decline. TGVs have more or less killed them off in France.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Perversly - where we have a railway that has pretty much every station staffed 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and employs plenty of drivers on night shift that could easily operate services no trains are operated due to engineeering constraints.

 

[Toots]

It depends on the area.I'm not sure about stations being manned 24 hours a day,up here in the north we are lucky to have staff at all!,but again,the biggest problem is rolling stock or the lack of it.Engineering does occur at night,but providing the TOC's Driver's have the route knowledge,generally an alternative route can be found.On a lot of engineering work it often states 'will be given up for the passage of booked services',so it can be got around and the services that do run prove this.
If some Open Access operator suddenly decided to run night services,then he would be accomodated,so the problem isn't pathing or engineering,but its simply that a demand doesn't exist that would make anyone take the financial risk of starting a new service that would cater for travellers wishing to use services at that time of the night....
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Just to be clear, I wasn't intending passengers board or disembark from a service within a freight depot. A freight service from southhampton to will pass through a number of major cities enroute.

You mean mixed traffic?.....These services certainly existed under BR,but I am not aware of any since privatization.Some FOC's do have carry passengers in the form of charters,but I can never see a return to trains comprised of passenger coaches and freight vehicles as was the case pre privatization.

 

[oattam09]

Are we forgetting the fact that a station will only take you from A to B? That's ok if you live near a station but its no good getting a train to your nearest station then having to get a bus or taxi the rest of the way. A car has definite advantages at night, and there are less people on the roads making journey times significantly shorter. As much as I avoid buses like the plague, they can make more stops (in convenient places), are more flexible and much cheaper to run.

I am all for the sleepers, and have used the Night Rivieria (and would do so again) but for shorter hops I fear it would be hugely unprofitable, except on a few key 'night out' routes. But who wants to drive/manage a train with a load of drunken louts on it, no doubt adding to the decor with the evening's intake of booze that someone has to clean up.

Until the railways have a management system that adapts to the views/needs of the local populace more readily and is more willing to try things out, it is unlikely that these more specialised, personal services will become widespread. I love the idea of trundling along behind a row of containers on a freight train in a mk3!

 

[anthony263]

For swansea - Cardiff i did suggest running service X1 Swansea - Bridgend through to Cardiff like it used too, i would happilly drive it as i find the road are a lot nice to drive at night than during the daytime.

There is a 24 hour Swansea - Cardiff - Bristol - Heathrow national express coach service but some service only pick up/set down during the evening so are a bit difficult to use, i have once wanted to get a national express service from Mc Arthur Glen to Cardiff so that i could get the 1st megabus service to/from cardiff to London but the coach would only pick up at Cardiff.

I know there has been attempt at running a night train service between Cardiff & Bristol, but again the problem was lack of funding before it could get its feet off the ground.

 

[infobleep]

If it's based in demand then, then I take it there is more demand from people on the Portsmouth line to return from a night out in London on a Sunday than any other night of the week. On Sunday nights the last train is at 0.50. Every other night it is 23.45. Of course an either bigger demand exists in Bournemouth as there last train from London is 01.05 every night of the week I believe, although Subday time might be slightly different.

Oxford has 2 bus companies running buses to and from London 24 hours a day. Clearly there are do many people in Oxford wanting to go to and from London late it makes it worth while,

I would love to be able to go to concerts and not be bothered about being able to get home. My fault I guess for not living in Oxford and only living in Guildford which is closer to London in distance alone at night.
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There use to be 2 night buses from reading to Gatwick but these got dropped. They wete nit allowed to rub trains I believe. I guess lack of demand ended them. Of course if everyone catching an early morning flight assumed no public provider would ever run a service during the night, they may be unaware and carry on using there car.

As someone whio doesn't drive, I rely in public transport to get around much of the time.
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Apologies for spelling. I'm typing this on my iPod, which is awkward to type on.

 

[Metroland]

Not to mention within costs of staffing signal boxes too, some of which aren't open all the time.

There are some that do run 24/7 though, such as a few in London plus FTPE run a 2 hourly from York (or Leeds?) to Manchester Airport calling at Huddersfield and Manchester Picc, though I think this is one of the few all night services that isn't in London

Actually most signalboxes on main lines (and all large PSBs to my knowledge) are open 24/7 - principally for ECS/Freight/Engineering reasons. Most main lines are very heavily trafficked with freight overnight - The WCML and north ECML hardly sleeps. The MML, cross country lines and parts of the GWML are pretty busy too.

There are a few 24/7 services which have been mentioned, mainly around London (London-Reading, north from KX and St Pancras, south from Victoria and so on, some more regular than others) where there is demand, Sleepers and TPE. London-Oxford ends around 2am, and starts up again around 4, so there's not much of a gap and there are many medium distance flows like this.

Off the beaten track, say parts of Lincolnshire, the Cotswold line or back end of the Pennines, some lines are closed and/or there is simply not the demand for 24/7 services. The S&C is 24 hours these days, but that's for freight.

 

[Batman]

I've always wondered what freight uses the Chase Line overnight. Years ago there used to be 24 hour coal workings to Rugeley but these stopped in about 2001. For many years the last train on the line used to be an ECS working returning to Tysley after forming the 23:18 New Street - Hednesford.

But coming from someone who lives close to the line, I've noticed that there is now the ocasional freight train that runs on the line at about 3am ish, although I don't think it runs every night.

 

[OxtedL]

Maybe it's a case of there not being a market for a service until you go looking for one? Obviously 9 out of 10 night services simply aren't going to work, but the Brighton line demonstrates there ought to be some kind of background demand.
If you're ever at risk of missing the last train home to Oxted then it's a case of driving to Croydon and getting a train from there. This pattern is true for loads of other Southern stations as well, and is probably one of the main things keeping the night services viable, but (regardless of the fact I may have just explained away the seeming popularity of the night service inadvertantly ) these late trains always seem almost packed on leaving Victoria...

Where there is lots of four tracking and/or there are diversionary routes available, then some kind of skeleton night service has got to be something we'll see more in the future. It takes some of the risk out of getting the last train home, and it has the potential to unlock small pockets of demand. While the question is of course "how much?", one or two trains between midnight and 0530 wouldn't go amiss anyway, and would hopefully only constitute a small amount of agonising pain to TOCs and their employees, so I'm hopeful.

And maybe completely unrealistic (stock already being intensely used etc), but with the WCML seemingly always open in some form, why hasn't this already been done for some service of this nature from Euston to Birmingham or Mancester?

 

[jon0844]

The trains that run between 2 and 4am from St Pancras on TL are usually pretty busy, and not just with people going to/from the airport.

St Pancras has some places open 24/7 (Starbucks for example) so it's not too hard to have to wait an hour or two between trains during the night; at least there IS one. The stupidity is that on a Saturday night/Sunday morning, they finish early to allow for engineering work - whether it's done or not.

With Network Rail talking of working towards a 24 hour railway, perhaps this will end. At the very least, run some trains during the night and for the times where essential maintenance can't be avoided, put on replacement coaches/buses.

 

[Greenback]

It costs a lot to run a train, even if you could run it without driver or guard.

Yes, running a train is more complicated and costly than running a coach.

Are we forgetting the fact that a station will only take you from A to B? That's ok if you live near a station but its no good getting a train to your nearest station then having to get a bus or taxi the rest of the way. A car has definite advantages at night, and there are less people on the roads making journey times significantly shorter. As much as I avoid buses like the plague, they can make more stops (in convenient places), are more flexible and much cheaper to run.

Until the railways have a management system that adapts to the views/needs of the local populace more readily and is more willing to try things out

I think that it's more that the system is not set up to be a public service to enable people to get around without cars. Until there is a shift in the raison d'etre for UK rail, then most overnight services will not be viable.

There is a 24 hour Swansea - Cardiff - Bristol - Heathrow national express coach service

Indeed there is, and it provides a very useful way of travelling overnight to the airports for an early flight without the need for a hotel stay and a very early alarm call!

However the economics of running overnight coach services are vastly different to rails ervices. And the demand is simply not great enough - there are rarely more than 40 or so on each coach.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I wish there was a later Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour (or even Bristol - London Paddington) train. Currently going from Cardiff to Bath, the last train is 10pm (changing at bristol). A bit too much of a rush if coming from a Cardiff City football game. There is a 11pm from Cardiff to Bristol, but then afaik there is no way (other than a taxi) to get from there to Bath (I think the last bus is around half 12, but that would be a bit of a rush and a fuss too).

There is a late night Bath to Cardiff service (formed of a london paddington to cardiff service that goes via bath), so would very much appreciate if there was an option going the other way.

Although I do have doubts about how well used such a service would be.

 

[western Champion]

The 22.30 and the 23.30 Euston to Wolves services are usually fairly busy in standard at least and years ago there used to be a 00.10 from Euston to Wolves (formed of Mk 1s so shows how long ago it was) but would it be viable past Milton Keynes if it ran today ?
The journey time on the 22.30 and 23.30 can sometimes be towards three hours (1 hour 45 mins in the day and that's slow) because of time allowed for engineering work that is not always taking place.

 

[Greenback]

I wish there was a later Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour (or even Bristol - London Paddington) train. Currently going from Cardiff to Bath, the last train is 10pm (changing at bristol). A bit too much of a rush if coming from a Cardiff City football game. There is a 11pm from Cardiff to Bristol, but then afaik there is no way (other than a taxi) to get from there to Bath (I think the last bus is around half 12, but that would be a bit of a rush and a fuss too).

There is a late night Bath to Cardiff service (formed of a london paddington to cardiff service that goes via bath), so would very much appreciate if there was an option going the other way.

Although I do have doubts about how well used such a service would be.

No insult intended to our capital city, but I'm not sure there's either a huge demand for a night out in Cardiff from residents of Bath, or a large number of Bluebirds fans residing there!

However, the last trains from major cities can be quite early, but then again with the issue of connecting transport later trains may be of little use anyway.

 

[spacehopper]

I wish there was a later Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour (or even Bristol - London Paddington) train. Currently going from Cardiff to Bath, the last train is 10pm (changing at bristol). A bit too much of a rush if coming from a Cardiff City football game. There is a 11pm from Cardiff to Bristol, but then afaik there is no way (other than a taxi) to get from there to Bath (I think the last bus is around half 12, but that would be a bit of a rush and a fuss too).

Shame the Pembroke Dock- Waterloo service doesn't still run. Although that ran after midnight from Cardiff.

 

[anthony263]

Shame the Pembroke Dock- Waterloo service doesn't still run. Although that ran after midnight from Cardiff.

I travelled on that from Pyle to London Waterloo, i slept from Cardiff to Bassingstoke i must admit it was a bit strange to be arriving into London Waterloo at 04:15. I personally think that there should be a 00:05 Cardiff - Bristol TM - Bath spa service as well as a 23:59 service from Bristol to Cardiff.

That said i also think that there should be a later service between Swansea & London Paddington, perhaps when the IEP's enter service a single 5 carriage train will be ok.

 

[Minstral25]

Maybe it's a case of there not being a market for a service until you go looking for one? Obviously 9 out of 10 night services simply aren't going to work, but the Brighton line demonstrates there ought to be some kind of background demand.
If you're ever at risk of missing the last train home to Oxted then it's a case of driving to Croydon and getting a train from there. This pattern is true for loads of other Southern stations as well, and is probably one of the main things keeping the night services viable, but (regardless of the fact I may have just explained away the seeming popularity of the night service inadvertantly ) these late trains always seem almost packed on leaving Victoria...

Where there is lots of four tracking and/or there are diversionary routes available, then some kind of skeleton night service has got to be something we'll see more in the future.

The Overnight trains from Victoria used to call at Redhill but was stopped shortly after Southern got the Franchise. Reason given - in case network rail do night work at Redhill Station and then they would have to put a coach on for Redhill passengers as the train would run via the Quarry Lines.

 

[WelshBluebird]

No insult intended to our capital city, but I'm not sure there's either a huge demand for a night out in Cardiff from residents of Bath, or a large number of Bluebirds fans residing there!

However, the last trains from major cities can be quite early, but then again with the issue of connecting transport later trains may be of little use anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I agree I am not so sure if the demand would be there for just that journey. However I do think there is a demand for a later timed Bristol - Bath service. Although maybe that is because I am seeing it from a students point of view as someone who really doesn't like forking out £35 plus on a taxi?

I also do find it odd that the last Cardiff - London service is at half 9. Seems very early for such a route. Surely there would be some kind of demand for a service a little later, perhaps going via bath spa (as the late night / early morning London - Cardiff service does).

 

[Greenback]

Don't get me wrong, I agree I am not so sure if the demand would be there for just that journey. However I do think there is a demand for a later timed Bristol - Bath service. Although maybe that is because I am seeing it from a students point of view as someone who really doesn't like forking out £35 plus on a taxi?

I also do find it odd that the last Cardiff - London service is at half 9. Seems very early for such a route. Surely there would be some kind of demand for a service a little later, perhaps going via bath spa (as the late night / early morning London - Cardiff service does).

Yes, the last trains can be too early as I said. There is more demand for late trains from London, though, compared to trains to London. I'm also not sure that the argument for later trains to enable students to get home without a taxi will attract a huge amount of support from the general public!

Joking aside, there is clearly a market for later trains on a lot of routes. But basically the TOC's won;t run extra trains unless it is in the franchise to do so.

 

[Lawman]

Yes, the last trains can be too early as I said. There is more demand for late trains from London, though, compared to trains to London. I'm also not sure that the argument for later trains to enable students to get home without a taxi will attract a huge amount of support from the general public!

Joking aside, there is clearly a market for later trains on a lot of routes. But basically the TOC's won;t run extra trains unless it is in the franchise to do so.

Surley in the future when the tender is out for new companies that want to run their trains on the network then one of the conditions in the contract is the running of later trains during the night,to meet passenger needs,more so at the weekend,bank holidays.