Train Penalty Fare with No Railcard (16/17 Saver)

[Jamespt2]

So I received a penalty fair recently, I have put in 2 appeals so far and both have been declined. My issue is similar to a member that recently posted yesterday, I am a uni student and I had purchased the ticket from London Euston to Coventry for £8.50, but mistakenly included the railcard which I don't have.

When being checked on the train, the inspector offered to actually let me buy the ticket on the day or appeal, he had convinced me that submitting an appeal would be better as they are likely to just get me to pay the original price of when I purchased the ticket (£8.50 *2 so £17 in total, 16-17 offers 50% off from what I was told) rather than the full train ticket price (£31.40).

Both the ticket and the penalty fare are attached, as well as the message I sent for the first appeal. The deadline for the final appeal is on the 19th, if there is any way for this to be avoided that would be great. If not, it is what it is and I'll just have to be careful.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Jamespt2. Welcome to the forum. On what grounds do you think you can make a valid appeal? You appear to have purchased / used an inappropriately discounted advance ticket without an accompanying valid, in date, railcard. Might be best to pay up unless there are technical reasons why the PF issued might be invalid. Where in the journey did it get issued?

 

[Snow1964]

You would be advised to pay the discounted penalty of £50 (half of £100 for prompt payment) plus the ticket value.

You deliberately selected a railcard that you knew you didn't own, taking a chance you wouldn't be caught, but you were caught. The fixed penalty amount is there to deter trying to get away with it, and show there are consequences of chancing it (it is not a fine). And unless there are obscure reasons penalty was invalid, you should accept it.

If you are caught with a wrong (invalid) ticket, it is treated as no ticket. The fare charged will be walk up (on the day) single price for your journey (Euston-Coventry by Northwestern trains, or until next station if you didn't want to continue beyond that). You cannot buy advances on the train, it is the full single price (in your case off peak). From your description it sounds like you were offered to excess (upgrade to what normal ticket would cost, by paying the difference) instead you chose a penalty.

But as you didn't have a 16-17 railcard (rather than you had forgotten it), you misunderstood that sending in a copy of your railcard retrospectively (which can be done once per year) would clear the penalty. I am guessing your conversation about having wrong settings on phone was couldn't show your railcard when asked (digital railcard either not downloaded properly or you couldn't locate it on your phone), rather than you admitting you deliberately chose the 16-17 railcard price because it is 50% off even though the ticket purchase screen would have warned you that you need a railcard. It was also your choice to do it late at night when tired, hence the consequences.

What you have is not forgotten railcard (because you haven't bought one) it is choosing to underpay on a ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

You would be advised to pay the discounted penalty

Hang on a minute we haven't even found out if the PF was lawfully issued or not yet!

If you are caught with a wrong (invalid) ticket, it is treated as no ticket. The fare charged will be walk up (on the day) single price for your journey (Euston-Coventry by Northwestern trains).

Wrong. It is the single fare to the next station at which the train calls.

OP please advise which exactly train you were on and whether you asked for the PF to cover you to your destination.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

OP please advise which exactly train you were on and whether you asked for the PF to cover you to your destination.

If the Advance was for the 11:23 departure to Birmingham New Street from London Euston, and was issued at 11:29 as per the PF, it was probably issued early into the journey after leaving London Euston, so likely the train was somewhere between Euston and Watford Junction. @Jamespt2. Can you confirm this point and clarify the other matter(s) that @AlterEgo has asked?

 

[Snow1964]

OP please advise which exactly train you were on and whether you asked for the PF to cover you to your destination.

The attachments show ticket as an advance Euston-Coventry 11:23 LNR+WMR, there has been nothing to suggest wasn't this train and penalty for no documentation was issued at 11:29

 

[Jamespt2]

If the Advance was for the 11:23 departure to Birmingham New Street from London Euston, and was issued at 11:29 as per the PF, it was probably issued early into the journey after leaving London Euston, so likely the train was somewhere between Euston and Watford Junction. @Jamespt2. Can you confirm this and clarify the other point(s) that @AlterEgo has asked?

That's more or less spot on, the inspector came round about 2 mins after the train left.
Replying to @AlterEgo 's other question, I didn't ask for it to be covered, he told me himself that they would likely be able to cover it (I'm assuming you mean that I'd only pay what's left of the original price of the ticket, if not please elaborate).
Just a notice too, I did have a 16-25 railcard, but it just expired in July, unfortunate timing. I doubt that will make a difference but thought I'd mention it just in case.

 

[Snow1964]

@Jamespt2 if you have an expired 16-25 railcard, is it fair to say you are too old for a 16-17 railcard. Are you over 25 now ?

For clarity 16-17 railcard gets 50% off
16-25 railcard gets third off (but with £12min at times)
Expired 16-25 gets nothing off as same as no railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

Non compliant penalty fare. Violates the Regulations (that is, the law) as follows:

(2) In paragraph (1), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to—

(a)the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call; or

(b)the station at which the person leaves the train if, at the time the penalty fare is charged—

(i)the person is leaving the train; or

(ii)the train is stationary at a station and there is sufficient opportunity for the person charged to leave the train at that station.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

You need to quote the legislation and explain the circumstances exactly in your appeal. Ignore advice to pay the Penalty Fare at this stage. Post up a draft of the appeal on the forum so we can check the tightness of the wording. This is the only ground on which you appear to be able to make an appeal as far as I can tell.