"Train journey from Hell"

[northwichcat]

I'd say au contraire, there would be plenty happy to take a fare for returning back to Manchester for another job out rather than going back empty as they otherwise might.

I doubt there'd be arguments, you tend to find when lots of people (even drunk people on late evening trains) are being screwed over by the railway they tend to be quite co-operative and helpful to one another. If anything lots would be agreeing to share.

I find Greater Manchester taxi companies to be a lot more flexible than ones in Cheshire. Some of the ones in Cheshire act like you're asking a friend or relative to provide a lift if the journey you request doesn't fit nicely in to their schedule. On the other hand some of the South Manchester taxi companies will happily do a local pre-booked journey within Cheshire. Presumably as they are doing a number of airport shuttles it would mean a Knutsford to High Legh journey, for example, is no problem as a driver will be in the area having just done a journey from the airport to the Knutsford area. That driver might not return by the quickest route by accepting that journey but they will get some revenue for it and they'll get their name noticed with taxis being branded.

 

[al78]

Why would you walk to the East Lancs Road? Are there lights on that stretch? As the Lancs is pretty straight moving traffic will probably be doing 70+. You are safer on the demic train.

It doesn't matter how fast the traffic is moving, there is a shared use path segregated from the carriageway. I was thinking someone could get to the Lancs and walk as far as a bus stop if there are night buses running, otherwise calling for a taxi would be an option, although on a Friday/Saturday night you might have a long wait.

Having had a very quick check it appears the buses along the East Lancs between Manchester and Leigh don't run between around 23:20 and 4:15 so if it was very late at night, a taxi or a friend/relative might be the only options for anyone who left the train (assuming they could). In the time taken to walk to a decent pick-up point and wait for a lift, one would be better staying on the train and wait for assistance.

 

[standish1]

I have been to Hell in Norway and sent out postcards. Nice place

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It would perhaps be inappropriate to re-mention that the failed train service in question (a.k.a. the "Train journey from Hell") originated from Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[jayah]

Yes and as I said one of the main outbound calls will be to the crew. The inbound calls will be coming in thick and fast which will be hard to differentiate, as well as trying to implement service plans for the rest of the network, speak with colleagues, and keep up to date with the options for recovery of this train.

You say 'thick and fast' but the point is the Controllers should be able to see all the incoming calls, including who they are, and choose who they are picking up and when.

 

[class397tpe]

It doesn't matter how fast the traffic is moving, there is a shared use path segregated from the carriageway. I was thinking someone could get to the Lancs and walk as far as a bus stop if there are night buses running, otherwise calling for a taxi would be an option, although on a Friday/Saturday night you might have a long wait.

Having had a very quick check it appears the buses along the East Lancs between Manchester and Leigh don't run between around 23:20 and 4:15 so if it was very late at night, a taxi or a friend/relative might be the only options for anyone who left the train (assuming they could). In the time taken to walk to a decent pick-up point and wait for a lift, one would be better staying on the train and wait for assistance.

Yeah, even if it makes more sense to stay on the train (which in this scenario it did), I'm surprised people didn't try to get off for a couple of minutes so they could pop to the toilet outside (since the one in the train was blocked and overflowing)

 

[Robertj21a]

All rather worrying. Is there really no form of 'Panic button' that can be used by any onboard train staff ? - or did the control centre not fully appreciate the seriousness of the situation ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, even if it makes more sense to stay on the train (which in this scenario it did), I'm surprised people didn't try to get off for a couple of minutes so they could pop to the toilet outside (since the one in the train was blocked and overflowing)

In this situation of drunk people I suspect they'd either use the gangway or bottles, or pull the egress and just "go" out of the gap.

 

[childwallblues]

It would perhaps be inappropriate to re-mention that the failed train service in question (a.k.a. the "Train journey from Hell") originated from Liverpool Lime Street.A

It would perhaps be inappropriate to re-mention that the failed train service in question (a.k.a. the "Train journey from Hell") originated from Liverpool Lime Street.

But the train failed outside of Merseyside in Greater Manchester. Merseyside ends at Newton-le-Willows. So I assume that you are inferring that Liverpool is a better place for a night out than Manchester.

 

[bramling]

I'd say au contraire, there would be plenty happy to take a fare for returning back to Manchester for another job out rather than going back empty as they otherwise might.

I doubt there'd be arguments, you tend to find when lots of people (even drunk people on late evening trains) are being screwed over by the railway they tend to be quite co-operative and helpful to one another. If anything lots would be agreeing to share.

Must say this thread has amused me somewhat. Having once visited Astley SB, it’s really not the location where anyone unfamiliar with the precise location is going to go traipsing down a narrow unlit winding country lane, one which can be surprisingly busy by virtue of being a nasty little rat-run. Its not like cutting across a field is likely to be a wise choice either, might get muddy shoes rather quickly…

Someone with location awareness on their phone might just be able to get an Uber directed to the level crossing, but that’s about it.

 

[gazzaa2]

It depends on how far you have to walk to get to the minor road which leads to the A580. It is fine if the train has conveniently stopped at the crossing, less good if it has stopped a mile away and you have to find the minor road in the pitch black. I've looked where this happened on streetmap and it looks to be a flat rural area consisting of farmland, with very little habitation, so minimal lighting at night. The only traffic on that tiny road will be local traffic accessing one of the farms or Astley Green. If walking it, one has to be careful with navigation, There are a couple of places which involve a turn at a junction and a wrong turn will put you in someone's farmyard. Once you get near Astley Green there is a pavement. If you could make it to the East Lancs, are the buses still running at that time of night?

Perhaps around the time the train stopped. 2 or 3 hours later probably not unless there's a night bus. It's more convenient for a taxi at least.

 

[Edgeley]

Should you have the misfortune of being turfed off a train near Astley crossing I'd recommend taking a brisk half hour's walk north to the Old Boat House, a pleasant pub located where the lane crosses over the Bridgewater Canal. Once suitably fed and watered you could continue through Astley Green to the East Lancs Road. If you wait for a bus here, however, you'll be waiting a long time. No buses traverse the East Lancs (east of the M6) west of Ellenbrook. You need to carry on for a short distance on the other side of the Lancs to reach the road where you can pick up a bus for Manchester or the Trafford Centre. These are not the Vantage Manchester services: the guided busway runs further to the north which would entail an even longer walk. Evening services are only hourly.

By day the quiet, flat farmland of Chat Moss has a curious ambience of Lincolnshire or Cambridgeshire, rather than being part of Salford or Wigan.

 

[Djgr]

So if I might sum up this thread:

Another triumph for the railway because the customers who pay their wages, by being drunk (although no evidence is offered) have only themselves to blame and therefore deserve nothing.

 

[Horizon22]

You say 'thick and fast' but the point is the Controllers should be able to see all the incoming calls, including who they are, and choose who they are picking up and when.

There are only so many people available. A guards telephone number will probably just show up as “9107xxxxxxxx”. If you’re on another call already you have to take it in turn.

The responsible controller would have been informed pretty quickly anyway by colleagues (NR or TOC) inside the control centre or directly via the signaller.

 

[exbrel]

There are only so many people available. A guards telephone number will probably just show up as “9107xxxxxxxx”. If you’re on another call already you have to take it in turn.

The responsible controller would have been informed pretty quickly anyway by colleagues (NR or TOC) inside the control centre or directly via the signaller.

i would have thought a "work phone" or a specific number would have been used, that would tell the centre a in house call...

 

[DJ_K666]

I have been to Hell in Norway and sent out postcards. Nice place

And you came back too.

How far is the location from Chat Moss? I wouldn't want to try de-training there.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'd say au contraire, there would be plenty happy to take a fare for returning back to Manchester for another job out rather than going back empty as they otherwise might.

I doubt there'd be arguments, you tend to find when lots of people (even drunk people on late evening trains) are being screwed over by the railway they tend to be quite co-operative and helpful to one another. If anything lots would be agreeing to share.

You're kidding right, a few dozen or more lads & lassies juiced up after a day/night out in Liverpool having clambered down off and train, and along a couple of miles of dark country roads wouldn't argue over the first couple of Ubers that finally made it out there? I admire your optimism...

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're kidding right, a few dozen or more lads & lassies juiced up after a day/night out in Liverpool having clambered down off and train, and along a couple of miles of dark country roads wouldn't argue over the first couple of Ubers that finally made it out there? I admire your optimism...

You know how Uber works, right?

Would be true of Hackney carriages or cash-paying private hire, of course. It might be that one of the Ubers could be swayed to doing an illegal cash job and cancelling the Uber job, though.

 

[43066]

You're kidding right, a few dozen or more lads & lassies juiced up after a day/night out in Liverpool having clambered down off and train, and along a couple of miles of dark country roads wouldn't argue over the first couple of Ubers that finally made it out there? I admire your optimism...

To be fair it’s pretty difficult for anyone to argue “that’s not your Uber, it’s mine” when everyone has an app on their phone giving driver and registration details of “their” vehicle.

 

[Bantamzen]

You know how Uber works, right?

Would be true of Hackney carriages or cash-paying private hire, of course. It might be that one of the Ubers could be swayed to doing an illegal cash job and cancelling the Uber job, though.

Magic right?

The thing is they still have to be in the area to get to the passengers quickly. People who've been on the lash and stood around for hours tend not to be as patient.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I don't have an Uber account but have heard enough stories of venues 'tipping out' and people jumping in 'someone else's' Uber and heading off into the night leaving the original hirer stranded (and having paid 'their' fare for them already too). Very nice!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Magic right?

The thing is they still have to be in the area to get to the passengers quickly. People who've been on the lash and stood around for hours tend not to be as patient.

Payment is through the app and you can't get confused because your app says which one's yours and the driver knows the name of the passenger. The only scope for someone else taking someone else's Uber in that way is a willingness to do an off-books cash job instead. If someone did steal an Uber having booked another one, the driver wouldn't get paid because it'd be reported and the passenger refunded at the driver's expense, and it'd be known from the location of their phone and the driver's that they didn't travel in it, so the only way a driver would accept the wrong passenger would be if they were doing a knock-off cash job, which could cost them their access to the Uber platform if found out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2022 ==

I don't have an Uber account but have heard enough stories of venues 'tipping out' and people jumping in 'someone else's' Uber and heading off into the night leaving the original hirer stranded (and having paid 'their' fare for them already too). Very nice!

Fairly pointless as there would be clear evidence that they hadn't travelled if it was reported. They'd be refunded and the driver would not be paid for the job and could even find themselves out on their backside if they accepted it too often. Uber is very strongly skewed in favour of the passenger in terms of dispute resolution, not the driver.

It used to happen all the time when minicabs were booked by telephone and paid for by cash. It'll happen a lot less with Ubers because it can land the driver in bother and result in them not being paid for the journey.

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't have an Uber account but have heard enough stories of venues 'tipping out' and people jumping in 'someone else's' Uber and heading off into the night leaving the original hirer stranded (and having paid 'their' fare for them already too). Very nice!

I've seen it happen too. In an ideal world the scenario of a few dozen merry punters bouncing up country roads to order Ubers would see them all queuing nicely, with them patiently watching their phones for their driver to ping them as they arrive one after another. In the real world the first one won't turn up for 30 minutes, and when they do the person booked them gets into an argument about being charged 40 bar back into Manchester, and whilst this is happening another punter jumps in and says he'll give them 30 cash now. A fight breaks out and other Uber drivers give the whole match a wide swerve whilst the remaining punters struggle to find local companies to book, and the GM Police turn up and chaos ensues.

Just like the rest of Manchester on a Saturday night....

 

[Dr Hoo]

Fairly pointless as there would be clear evidence that they hadn't travelled if it was reported. They'd be refunded and the driver would not be paid for the job and could even find themselves out on their backside if they accepted it too often. Uber is very strongly skewed in favour of the passenger in terms of dispute resolution, not the driver.

It used to happen all the time when minicabs were booked by telephone and paid for by cash. It'll happen a lot less with Ubers because it can land the driver in bother and result in them not being paid for the journey.

You are probably strictly right but it still means that you are stranded at the time and have all the faff of 'getting a refund' with 'all the evidence' later.

In the cases I heard about it was a case of young people just shrugging and setting off for a long walk home instead.

Anyway, sorry to deflect the thread.

ENDS

 

[northwichcat]

I don't have an Uber account but have heard enough stories of venues 'tipping out' and people jumping in 'someone else's' Uber and heading off into the night leaving the original hirer stranded (and having paid 'their' fare for them already too). Very nice!

Unless someone lived very close to you, either the other person would end up dropped off in the wrong place or the tracking would show the driver didn't fulfil your request to take the booked journey.

It used to happen all the time when minicabs were booked by telephone and paid for by cash. It'll happen a lot less with Ubers because it can land the driver in bother and result in them not being paid for the journey.

Pre-smart phone apps, when I was a student, I found the best way to get a taxi home was to walk in to a centrally located taxi office and to request one for a few reasons.

1. It counted as pre-booked, even though it was usually only a wait of less than 5 minutes, so attracted a cheaper fare than at the taxi rank.
2. It didn't require specifying a specific pick up time or location in advance.
3. The person in the taxi office was good at coordinating the taxis, so when one appeared outside he directed the appropriate people to the taxi.
4. It meant waiting inside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless someone lived very close to you, either the other person would end up dropped off in the wrong place or the tracking would show the driver didn't fulfil your request to take the booked journey.

Indeed, and either way the driver wouldn't in the end be paid (provided the victim reported the matter), so there's a strong motivation for Uber drivers (and similar) to ensure they get the correct passenger, unless they cancel the Uber request and take an illegal unbooked cash job instead (which some might).

Pre-smart phone apps, when I was a student, I found the best way to get a taxi home was to walk in to a centrally located taxi office and to request one for a few reasons.

1. It counted as pre-booked, even though it was usually only a wait of less than 5 minutes, so attracted a cheaper fare than at the taxi rank.
2. It didn't require specifying a specific pick up time or location in advance.
3. The person in the taxi office was good at coordinating the taxis, so when one appeared outside he directed the appropriate people to the taxi.
4. It meant waiting inside.

Never done that that I recall, but I always found it best to get a taxi (of any kind) away from any major venue, as the venues tended to attract the fraudster drivers. Most recently, having had issues with misbehaving drivers (e.g. asking for cash when I had booked card or overcharging) at Pink Punters in MK, I found that walking round to Fenny Stratford station tended to result in a fairly quick and properly-behaving driver showing up. Some clearly descend on drinking venues in the hope that they can find an easy (very drunk) target to rip off.

In CMK similarly I sometimes, when busy, found it worth walking down from Xscape etc to the station to get one there, which also had the added benefit of somewhere indoors to sit and wait.

 

[Moonshot]

The root cause of this incident was a blown transformer at Ordsall Lane. The ADD on the train itself operated automatically thus bringing the train to a stop. Apparently, Network Rails systems didn't detect the blown transformer and it was initially thought that the power fault lay with the train itself.