"Train journey from Hell"

[185143]

Is there any evidence that relevant trains were "full of drunks" or is this the usual attempt to push the failings of the railway onto its paying customers?

I've got lots of experience with late night trains out of Manchester and Liverpool stretching back about 10 years.

I can 100% guarantee you all of the potential rescue trains will have been full, and probably standing, with drunk passengers.

Source: I'm frequently a drunk passenger standing on the late night trains out of Manchester

 

[Phil56]

I've got lots of experience with late night trains out of Manchester and Liverpool stretching back about 10 years.

I can 100% guarantee you all of the potential rescue trains will have been full, and probably standing, with drunk passengers.

Source: I'm frequently a drunk passenger standing on the late night trains out of Manchester

Sounds like they need more (or longer) trains if the last trains of the day are always full & standing.

 

[185143]

Sounds like they need more (or longer) trains if the last trains of the day are always full & standing.

It's not as bad as it used to be in fairness, since the introduction of 319s and 802s for TPE.

 

[43066]

Is there any evidence that relevant trains were "full of drunks" or is this the usual attempt to push the failings of the railway onto its paying customers?

Have you ever been on a train on a Friday or Saturday night?

 

[skyhigh]

Is there any evidence that relevant trains were "full of drunks" or is this the usual attempt to push the failings of the railway onto its paying customers?

From earlier in the thread:

They were intending on using 2F15 to either rescue or evacuate the trapped train but unfortunately disorder on board it meant it went on to it's destination instead.

It would be a fairly bad idea to use a train that's already got disorderly passengers on to try and evacuate another train...

 

[exbrel]

or track circuit clips

thanks...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2022 ==

Assuming you mean assistance protection, yes, the crew still have to place dets.

thanks...

 

[skyhigh]

or track circuit clips

You wouldn't use track circuit clips for assistance protection.

 

[L401CJF]

i know this might be a silly question, but they say a silly question, is the one you don't ask... and i've been retired a good few years now so out of touch, but do the train crew still have to put detonators etc out, or will the signal box do the necessary protection...

Assistance protection ie detonators 300m from the train as requested by the signaller.

Regarding full protection for the stranded train, would only have to be placed if the crew were unable to contact the signaller. In which case track circuit clips as applicable, 3x detonators 1.25miles away - or until you reach a signal box/signal post telephone/lineside telephone, carry red lamp (as it is dark) to stop approaching train should one appear.

Think I have that right

 

[skyhigh]

Regarding full protection for the stranded train, would only have to be placed if the crew were unable to contact the signaller. In which case track circuit clips as applicable, 3x detonators 1.25miles away - or until you reach a signal box/signal post telephone/lineside telephone, carry red lamp (as it is dark) to stop approaching train should one appear.

That is emergency protection. No requirement to lay that (under normal circumstances) for a failed train as you are still protected by the signalling system as normal.

 

[175001]

Is there any evidence that relevant trains were "full of drunks" or is this the usual attempt to push the failings of the railway onto its paying customers?

Take it from us who work on the railway, yes it would be. Manchester to Liverpool on a Saturday night? C'mon now...

 

[northwichcat]

Is there any evidence that relevant trains were "full of drunks" or is this the usual attempt to push the failings of the railway onto its paying customers?

Try 99.9% of trains late on a friday/Saturday and you'll soon have your answer. It seems much worse lately on the lines I work.

Remember the train left Liverpool at 9:30pm. The people who spend the most time out drinking wouldn't be ready to go home that early.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2022 ==

I've got lots of experience with late night trains out of Manchester and Liverpool stretching back about 10 years.

I can 100% guarantee you all of the potential rescue trains will have been full, and probably standing, with drunk passengers.

Source: I'm frequently a drunk passenger standing on the late night trains out of Manchester

1. The train was heading in to Manchester.
2. The next train towards Manchester would have come from Chester. Although, Chester has a hen party problem and on race days....

 

[skyhigh]

Remember the train left Liverpool at 9:30pm. The people who spend the most time out drinking wouldn't be ready to go home that early.

Depends how early they started!

 

[L401CJF]

That is emergency protection. No requirement to lay that (under normal circumstances) for a failed train as you are still protected by the signalling system as normal.

Ah sorry I misunderstood the question being asked!

 

[Craig1122]

Control being uncontactable is concerning. We have these stories on here every so often and the common theme is that there just isn't the capacity in the system to deal with failures like this. Especially if two or more incidents happen at the same time.

There's an interesting article in this month's Modern Railways about Anglia route control, one thing they'd identified was that staffing was too tight, in particular that too much was being put on the on call managers. Of course the problem with contingency is it means sometimes you're paying for people and assets that aren't in use all the time. And plenty of people at a high level don't like that!

 

[Starmill]

Trying to manage an evacuation via the track, in the dark, is very, very difficult. Some people will struggle to walk on the ballast let alone pull themselves up into the train. Young children, passengers who have had a lot to drink and anyone with a disability affecting mobility and it becomes nearly impossible to do safely. The majority of trains at Northern do not have unit end gangways so either this or transboardment bridges are the only options.

 

[childwallblues]

If it was cancelled from Victoria, where did it end up? Just stay there until the morning?

323234 was noted yesterday afternoon on the long siding adjacent to the Merseyrail line east of Allerton Depot

 

[northwichcat]

The majority of trains at Northern do not have unit end gangways

Even if they do, can you move passengers from an electric train, that can't move due to an infrastructure problem, to a self-powered train that can move?

 

[skyhigh]

Even if they do, can you move passengers from an electric train, that can't move due to an infrastructure problem, to a self-powered train that can move?

Yes, though not necessarily through the gangway. It's not an uncommon occurrence when there's OHLE issues.

 

[Howardh]

323234 was noted yesterday afternoon on the long siding adjacent to the Merseyrail line east of Allerton Depot

Thanks for that info!

 

[gazzaa2]

As been said, if you know the area, & even though it's 10 miles from Manchester City Centre, the area around Astley signal box is very rural, & a 2 mile walk, down single track country roads, with high hedgerows either side, to the nearest main road, which is the East Lancs Road, i wouldn't fancy that in the middle of the day, never mind 11pm in the pitch black.

Not that i'd self evacuate anyway but i'd rather take my chances and walk to the East Lancs road and get a bus/taxi into Manchester or whatever than be stranded on that train for several hours, given the option. Astley signal box is right on a road at least, it's not like you're stuck miles from any roads, you can walk to the East Lancs road. I know there's no pedestrian walk but I can't imagine many cars about in a rural area like that at that time. Not ideal admittedly but depends how claustrophobic you are.

In reality most of the passengers wouldn't have had a clue where they were. Given the option of a two mile walk to a main road, many would have taken it.

 

[al78]

Not that i'd self evacuate anyway but i'd rather take my chances and walk to the East Lancs road and get a bus/taxi into Manchester or whatever than be stranded on that train for several hours, given the option. Astley signal box is right on a road at least, it's not like you're stuck miles from any roads, you can walk to the East Lancs road. I know there's no pedestrian walk but I can't imagine many cars about in a rural area like that at that time. Not ideal admittedly but depends how claustrophobic you are.

In reality most of the passengers wouldn't have had a clue where they were. Given the option of a two mile walk to a main road, many would have taken it.

It depends on how far you have to walk to get to the minor road which leads to the A580. It is fine if the train has conveniently stopped at the crossing, less good if it has stopped a mile away and you have to find the minor road in the pitch black. I've looked where this happened on streetmap and it looks to be a flat rural area consisting of farmland, with very little habitation, so minimal lighting at night. The only traffic on that tiny road will be local traffic accessing one of the farms or Astley Green. If walking it, one has to be careful with navigation, There are a couple of places which involve a turn at a junction and a wrong turn will put you in someone's farmyard. Once you get near Astley Green there is a pavement. If you could make it to the East Lancs, are the buses still running at that time of night?

 

[jayah]

What do you mean by "open line"? No doubt the driver and signaller were already in regular contact, and the driver almost certainly with maintenance/fleet control as well trying to rectify the problem.

As for the guard getting through, by far the easiest way to do this, would be the reverse, with Control directly contacting the guard after X minutes so they know who to priotise. If this wasn't done, it is indeed a failing. There wouldn't be any easy way in a crisis to priortise one mobile number (the guard's) on phone systems whilst controllers are trying to deal with a) the immediately impacted train and b) the surrounding impact.

Back in the 1990s traders had telephone systems that allowed them to see all the incoming calls and pick and choose who they wanted to speak to first.

There can't be many people they should want to speak to more than the crew of the stranded train?

 

[LowLevel]

Back in the 1990s traders had telephone systems that allowed them to see all the incoming calls and pick and choose who they wanted to speak to first.

There can't be many people they should want to speak to more than the crew of the stranded train?

Controls can generally see who is trying to call them, unless you use the GSMR on board radio. Whilst there is obviously a sense of priority other business doesn't just stop and you can only have so many people talking on the phone at once, and of those only so many will be able to make things like safety critical decisions.

If it's anything like our control there will be an emergency number which will bounce to any open line prioritising the higher grade controllers or duty managers, but that isn't intended for use during ongoing incidents unless something changes and they start to spiral out of control.

If anything I've found that during major incidents my company mobile can become a pain with people trying to get hold of me instead and you have to prioritise your own actions rather than just automatically answering the phone.

 

[Horizon22]

Back in the 1990s traders had telephone systems that allowed them to see all the incoming calls and pick and choose who they wanted to speak to first.

There can't be many people they should want to speak to more than the crew of the stranded train?

Yes and as I said one of the main outbound calls will be to the crew. The inbound calls will be coming in thick and fast which will be hard to differentiate, as well as trying to implement service plans for the rest of the network, speak with colleagues, and keep up to date with the options for recovery of this train.

 

[Gathursty]

If you walk south of Astley crossing, it is a passable road but with many potholes and dips as per the boggy landscape BUT it will take you directly to Irlam where there would be much more help than walking to Higher Green/Astley.

However at that time of night, it's not worth it and being in either Irlam or by the East Lancs at that time of night wouldn't get you any nearer to wherever you wish to be.

 

[childwallblues]

It depends on how far you have to walk to get to the minor road which leads to the A580. It is fine if the train has conveniently stopped at the crossing, less good if it has stopped a mile away and you have to find the minor road in the pitch black. I've looked where this happened on streetmap and it looks to be a flat rural area consisting of farmland, with very little habitation, so minimal lighting at night. The only traffic on that tiny road will be local traffic accessing one of the farms or Astley Green. If walking it, one has to be careful with navigation, There are a couple of places which involve a turn at a junction and a wrong turn will put you in someone's farmyard. Once you get near Astley Green there is a pavement. If you could make it to the East Lancs, are the buses still running at that time of night?

Why would you walk to the East Lancs Road? Are there lights on that stretch? As the Lancs is pretty straight moving traffic will probably be doing 70+. You are safer on the demic train.

 

[MP393]

Why would you walk to the East Lancs Road? Are there lights on that stretch? As the Lancs is pretty straight moving traffic will probably be doing 70+. You are safer on the demic train.

As a regular driver on the East Lancs I can confirm there’s lights along the whole stretch (except after the M6 at Haydock for a small stretch), the road changes from 60-50mph somewhere around Astley, but your comment regarding speed is probably correct, as there’s no cameras until Salford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you could make it to the East Lancs, are the buses still running at that time of night?

Most younger people these days (at least) would just pull out their phone and summon a taxi using the Uber app. Their phone also has Google Maps (and some will have more useful sites for rural areas like OS Maps or Openstreetmap) and a torch.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2022 ==

Why would you walk to the East Lancs Road? Are there lights on that stretch? As the Lancs is pretty straight moving traffic will probably be doing 70+. You are safer on the demic train.

The ELR has a cycle path and pavement throughout and is fully lit. It is a mostly urban dual carriageway, not a motorway. I forget about that stretch but it mostly has a 60 limit (or lower as you near Manchester).

 

[Bantamzen]

Most younger people these days (at least) would just pull out their phone and summon a taxi using the Uber app. Their phone also has Google Maps (and some will have more useful sites for rural areas like OS Maps or Openstreetmap) and a torch.

Although summoning enough Ubers to there for a train load after 11pm at night would be fun, and likely cause roadside arguments. Most Uber drivers working would be in the centre of Manchester by then for the first of the homeward bound revellers than lurking around the East Lancs Road.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although summoning enough Ubers to there for a train load after 11pm at night would be fun, and likely cause roadside arguments. Most Uber drivers working would be in the centre of Manchester by then for the first of the homeward bound revellers than lurking around the East Lancs Road.

I'd say au contraire, there would be plenty happy to take a fare for returning back to Manchester for another job out rather than going back empty as they otherwise might.

I doubt there'd be arguments, you tend to find when lots of people (even drunk people on late evening trains) are being screwed over by the railway they tend to be quite co-operative and helpful to one another. If anything lots would be agreeing to share.