Train joining portions at two different stations (timetable data geekery)

[Paul Kelly]

I came across this TPE train with an extremely unusual join/divide pattern, because it was triggering a 12-year old bug in the BR Times source code. In fact there is only a single train in the current timetable that shows joins in two different places. It runs on Fridays only:

• The 21:00 from Manchester Piccadilly to York terminates there at 22:36, then waits for
• The 22:45 from Scarborough which arrives at York at 23:34
• They join and depart York at 23:40, arriving Leeds at 00:07
• They then join the 23:01 from Hull, which has already arrived at Leeds at 00:04
• The combined train departs at 00:13 and arrives Manchester Piccadilly at 01:25

Here it is on BR Times: https://www.brtimes.com/!train?uid=L36812

I wonder has anybody seen this train out and about (or might notice it tonight)? I am curious if it is really a triple 185 from Leeds to Manchester. E.g. perhaps the unit that arrived from Manchester is locked out when attached at York and is removed again at Leeds? RTT seems only to show one unit from YRK-LDS and two units from LDS-MAN but that does not seem consistent with the timetable data.

 

[Russel]

That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

 

[Tom]

It looks to me like the associations for a lot of those services are just completely glitched out.

There's also a NP association against the 2100 Manchester-York onto L36926 1U44 2244 York-Manchester which looks like the correct one to me. I expect RTT is disregarding the JJ association as it does a check to see where that schedule continues onto and if it looks like a double back it drops it.

 

[dodecahedron67]

FSX 2U87 couples with 1P46 at York

FO 2U87 forms 1U44, 1P46 couples with 1K40 at Leeds

SO 2U87 forms 2U94, 1T46 terminates at York

No triple 185.

 

[ABB125]

Wouldn't some of the "jumbo" trains on the West Highland Line count? One unit departs Mallaig, joins another at Fort William, then at Crianlarich another unit from Oban is attached

 

[Kite159]

Wouldn't some of the "jumbo" trains on the West Highland Line count? One unit departs Mallaig, joins another at Fort William, then at Crianlarich another unit from Oban is attached

Or even during the summer where the afternoon departure from Mallaig ran as a pair of 156s to attach with a 153 at Fort William and later on another 156 from Oban crashes into the rear at Crianlarich giving a 7 coach sprinter formation

 

[ABB125]

Or even during the summer where the afternoon departure from Mallaig ran as a pair of 156s to attach with a 153 at Fort William and later on another 156 from Oban crashes into the rear at Crianlarich giving a 7 coach sprinter formation

I did wonder if that might be the case on some journeys!

~~

Meanwhile, do any of the Cambrian Coast services have an additional unit added for the Shrewsbury to Birmingham section? Not something I've ever come across, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen...

 

[Sheridan]

I did wonder if that might be the case on some journeys!

~~

Meanwhile, do any of the Cambrian Coast services have an additional unit added for the Shrewsbury to Birmingham section? Not something I've ever come across, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen...

There are definitely some 3x158s from
Shrewsbury to Birmingham but I’m not sure where the joining happens and if it would match the criteria for this thread.

 

[bramling]

Wouldn't some of the "jumbo" trains on the West Highland Line count? One unit departs Mallaig, joins another at Fort William, then at Crianlarich another unit from Oban is attached

There used to be something similar in Connex days. In the daytime, a 4-car (normally 4Cig) would start from Hastings, attach to a further unit whilst reversing at Eastbourne, and then join a further 4-car from Littlehampton (?) at Haywards Heath.

Something similar happened on the west side where there was also a join-up of services from possibly three different destinations (one definitely originated as a 4-car from Bournemouth to form a similar 12-car in the opposite half hour.

I think at the time these were the only regular off-peak 12-car services in the country.

 

[stadler]

There used to be something similar in Connex days. In the daytime, a 4-car (normally 4Cig) would start from Hastings, attach to a further unit whilst reversing at Eastbourne, and then join a further 4-car from Littlehampton (?) at Haywards Heath.

Something similar happened on the west side where there was also a join-up of services from possibly three different destinations (one definitely originated as a 4-car from Bournemouth to form a similar 12-car in the opposite half hour.

I think at the time these were the only regular off-peak 12-car services in the country.

That actually happened much more recently. It was booked to happen until May 2020 when the Haywards Heath attaches and divides (other than a few early morning and late night trains) were stopped. There were about five or six trains booked each day which started as a four car at Ore or Hastings and then attached to another four car at Eastbourne and then attached to another four car at Haywards Heath which had come from West Coastway stations. Then in the reverse direction it would do the opposite and drop off portions twice.

 

[Watershed]

That actually happened much more recently. It was booked to happen until May 2020 when the Haywards Heath attaches and divides (other than a few early morning and late night trains) were stopped. There were about five or six trains booked each day which started as a four car at Ore or Hastings and then attached to another four car at Eastbourne and then attached to another four car at Haywards Heath which had come from West Coastway stations. Then in the reverse direction it would do the opposite and drop off portions twice.

There's still one a day - the 05:07 from Hastings gains 4 coaches at Eastbourne and then joins with the 05:37 from Littlehampton at Haywards Heath to become 12 coaches:

Realtime Trains | 0507 Hastings to London Victoria | 18/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 0507 departure from Hastings to London Victoria on 18/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Believe that the formation may vary on Mondays and Fridays due to reduced commuter demand - but don't have the diagrams to say for sure. RTT is inconclusive due to disruption over the last few weeks.

 

[SargeNpton]

In the system that validates the timetable data for use in retail systems, the software was set up to deal with trains that join or split at more than one location - mainly so that the reservations system can offer through seats in the relevant coaches.

From memory, up to eight joining/splitting portions can be handled. Those systems only deal with public "associations", so the adding/removing of empty coaches en route is ignored.

For the northbound Highland Sleeper, there have been a few occasions - due to engineering work - where the Fort William portion was split off at Edinburgh with the rest of the train heading to somewhere further on (Falkirk/Stirling perhaps?) where the Inverness and Aberdeen portions parted company.

 

[MCR247]

For the northbound Highland Sleeper, there have been a few occasions - due to engineering work - where the Fort William portion was split off at Edinburgh with the rest of the train heading to somewhere further on (Falkirk/Stirling perhaps?) where the Inverness and Aberdeen portions parted company.

I think I recall an occasion where they both ran to Aberdeen and the Inverness portion carried on from there via Elgin