Train Hits Buffers at Brighton

[trainmania100]

A class 387/2 hit the buffers yesterday on platform 4 at brighton
Doesn't seem to be a lot of info on it but there were no casualties.

See picture at: http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2017-01-31/train-collides-with-buffers-at-brighton/

Haven't quoted anything as there is limit information on thesubject but still worthy of interest. If they'd used 442s their built in buffers would probably bounce off the station buffer block

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will all platforms at Brighton have TPWS overspeed grids?

It looks like there probably wasn't any damage, no mention of it on The Argus website

 

[dctraindriver]

Will all platforms at Brighton have TPWS overspeed grids?

It looks like there probably wasn't any damage, no mention of it on The Argus website

If it got that far and in one piece, it wasn't overspending approaching the buffers.

Let's hope the driver isn't hung, drawn or quartered.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If it got that far and in one piece, it wasn't overspending approaching the buffers.

Overspending, you say. The mind boggles what these modern traction units can now do...

 

[Trainfan344]

Looking at the damage to the unit, the location, it can't have been going very fast 5 mph or less I'd say*.

*I'm not an expert. I'm just sat in an armchair.

 

[Deepgreen]

With the snail's pace approach to the buffers that prevails these days, how on earth can this still happen? Amazing.

 

[trainmania100]

With the snail's pace approach to the buffers that prevails these days, how on earth can this still happen? Amazing.

Drivers often get very close to the buffers when stopping the train at a terminus, probably to reduce walking distance for passengers, it just seems this one got a bit too close

 

[Bromley boy]

With the snail's pace approach to the buffers that prevails these days, how on earth can this still happen? Amazing.

Probably a lot more easily than you might imagine. All it takes is a tiny lapse in concentration at the wrong moment.

 

[Bromley boy]

Will all platforms at Brighton have TPWS overspeed grids?

It looks like there probably wasn't any damage, no mention of it on The Argus website

Yes they will, sensitive to approach speeds of 10mph and above. They won't do anything to prevent a low speed collision.

 

[ainsworth74]

Probably a lot more easily than you might imagine. All it takes is a tiny lapse in concentration at the wrong moment.

Or something to have greased the rails.

 

[Deepgreen]

Probably a lot more easily than you might imagine. All it takes is a tiny lapse in concentration at the wrong moment.

A "tiny" lapse? The lapse would have to be pretty big to occur precisely at the most critical moment!

 

[broadgage]

With the snail's pace approach to the buffers that prevails these days, how on earth can this still happen? Amazing.

The snails pace approach should prevent SERIOUS buffer stop collisions. It cant stop a driver approaching very slowly, at say 3 MPH, but leaving braking from this very low speed too late.
A collision is then unavoidable, but should not have serious consequences at such a low speed.

Causes could include a minor misjudgement by the driver, or oil on the rail head reducing the effectiveness of the brake.

 

[Bromley boy]

A "tiny" lapse? The lapse would have to be pretty big to occur precisely at the most critical moment!

The final approach to the buffers is made at walking pace, aiming to stop 6 feet back from them. They start to disappear from view below the windscreen and I've often thought it would be very easy to misjudge.

I'm not implying that's what happened in this case, of course. Greasy rails are another possibility.

 

[Deepgreen]

The snails pace approach should prevent SERIOUS buffer stop collisions. It cant stop a driver approaching very slowly, at say 3 MPH, but leaving braking from this very low speed too late.
A collision is then unavoidable, but should not have serious consequences at such a low speed.

Causes could include a minor misjudgement by the driver, or oil on the rail head reducing the effectiveness of the brake.

I do wonder if the very low speed and therefore very time-consuming approaches to buffers at so many termini readily lends itself to lapses in concentration. BTW, I am not assuming that happened here, but it must be considered as a possibility. If rail adhesion was the issue, what, I wonder, would have caused that since the previous train at the platform had left?

 

[Deepgreen]

Drivers often get very close to the buffers when stopping the train at a terminus, probably to reduce walking distance for passengers, it just seems this one got a bit too close

Indirectly so, but it is simply required for correct berthing - because full length formations need to clear the starting signal at the rear of the arriving train, for example.

 

[tsr]

I do wonder if the very low speed and therefore very time-consuming approaches to buffers at so many termini readily lends itself to lapses in concentration. BTW, I am not assuming that happened here, but it must be considered as a possibility. If rail adhesion was the issue, what, I wonder, would have caused that since the previous train at the platform had left?

The ballast at Brighton is not known for being clear of litter (even though it does get reasonably regular litter picks) so there could be all sorts of contaminants down on the track. Also, there could have been detergent from cleaning windscreens (very hazardous when spilt on steel), grease or anything else you might find around a railway terminus.

It will have been part of the investigation, though I don't know if any more news will get into the public domain.

Alternatively, as others have said, it could have been some sort of misjudgment on the part of the driver. There is recognition within the industry that drivers creeping towards buffers and red signals can be carrying out such a distracting activity in and of itself (due to the concentration needed to maintain very slow speed control of the movement and maximise comfort for passengers) that the likelihood of passing a signal at danger, or hitting the buffers, can actually be increased. It seems counter-intuitive to suggest this, when you have a picture in your mind of a big red light or block of steel sitting in front of you, but it is a surprisingly big risk. In a way, if you are travelling very slowly, the red signal feels less hazardous ("I couldn't possibly pass that") whereas it is all too easy to carry on at the same speed until it is too late to stop in the conditions.

 

[trainmania100]

Indirectly so, but it is simply required for correct berthing - because full length formations need to clear the starting signal at the rear of the arriving train, for example.

Oh i see! That makes sense. They need to allow room incase another service needs to terminate on the same platform.

 

[trainmania100]

The ballast at Brighton is not known for being clear of litter (even though it does get reasonably regular litter picks) so there could be all sorts of contaminants down on the track. Also, there could have been detergent from cleaning windscreens (very hazardous when spilt on steel), grease or anything else you might find around a railway terminus.

As a matter of fact, im not sure platform 4,5,6,7 even have ballast at the end closes to the ticket barriers?
Its more like a concrete floor with the sleepers fixed to. The area around the buffers is often very filthy.

 

[Deepgreen]

Oh i see! That makes sense. They need to allow room incase another service needs to terminate on the same platform.

Partly, but it's just a basic requirement to stop as close to the buffers as possible - there is no reason to stop anywhere else in normal circumstances (whether another train needs to berth or not).

 

[Deepgreen]

The ballast at Brighton is not known for being clear of litter (even though it does get reasonably regular litter picks) so there could be all sorts of contaminants down on the track. Also, there could have been detergent from cleaning windscreens (very hazardous when spilt on steel), grease or anything else you might find around a railway terminus.

It will have been part of the investigation, though I don't know if any more news will get into the public domain.

Alternatively, as others have said, it could have been some sort of misjudgment on the part of the driver. There is recognition within the industry that drivers creeping towards buffers and red signals can be carrying out such a distracting activity in and of itself (due to the concentration needed to maintain very slow speed control of the movement and maximise comfort for passengers) that the likelihood of passing a signal at danger, or hitting the buffers, can actually be increased. It seems counter-intuitive to suggest this, when you have a picture in your mind of a big red light or block of steel sitting in front of you, but it is a surprisingly big risk. In a way, if you are travelling very slowly, the red signal feels less hazardous ("I couldn't possibly pass that") whereas it is all too easy to carry on at the same speed until it is too late to stop in the conditions.

I can readily see the risk, and I have long held the opinion that the over-cautious terminus approach regime is flawed. However, it's hard to get right to accommodate safety and passenger comfort equally.

 

[tsr]

As a matter of fact, im not sure platform 4,5,6,7 even have ballast at the end closes to the ticket barriers?
Its more like a concrete floor with the sleepers fixed to. The area around the buffers is often very filthy.

I'm using it as a generic term, but you have a good point. For Platform 4, I have to say I can't actually remember what the track on the approach to the buffers lies on - it's a long time since I've been at Brighton when that platform has actually been empty!

 

[Bromley boy]

I can readily see the risk, and I have long held the opinion that the over-cautious terminus approach regime is flawed. However, it's hard to get right to accommodate safety and passenger comfort equally.

I've been told that when the TPWS ovespeed grids were first installed at terminal platforms they were set at 5mph so the problem was even worse. Can anyone confirm?

 

[Deepgreen]

I've been told that when the TPWS ovespeed grids were first installed at terminal platforms they were set at 5mph so the problem was even worse. Can anyone confirm?

That certainly seemed to be the case at London Bridge when the terminal platforms were first used after rebuilding. The approaches were horribly slow.

 

[theironroad]

I've been told that when the TPWS ovespeed grids were first installed at terminal platforms they were set at 5mph so the problem was even worse. Can anyone confirm?

You're correct that they were set to 5mph when first installed.

 

[Deepgreen]

You're correct that they were set to 5mph when first installed.

Are they now set to 10mph, or are they platform/station-specific?

 

[theironroad]

Are they now set to 10mph, or are they platform/station-specific?

Advice to drivers is that the grids will trigger at speeds greater than 10mph and as far as I'm aware this applies to all terminal station platforms and bay platforms at through stations.

What they are actually set at I don't know, it may be be 11 or 12 mph to allow some tolerance.

 

[broadgage]

Oil or grease can dropped onto the rail by the previous train, not very likely with electric trains but they do have moving parts that need lubrication.

 

[ainsworth74]

Oil or grease can dropped onto the rail by the previous train, not very likely with electric trains but they do have moving parts that need lubrication.

There are DMUs serving Brighton. I believe they usually serve platforms further over than the one where the incident happened but strange things do happen when it comes to allocating platforms!

 

[Juniper Driver]

Partly, but it's just a basic requirement to stop as close to the buffers as possible - there is no reason to stop anywhere else in normal circumstances (whether another train needs to berth or not).

We have a red zone at Waterloo.

Oil or grease can dropped onto the rail by the previous train, not very likely with electric trains but they do have moving parts that need lubrication.

At Waterloo..possibly.I also find the odd slide on the Clapham Junction down main stop so I'm a bit more steady how I run in now.Bournemouth was another place for me.

Of course 159s and Virgin Voyagers share these places respectively.

 

[TrainfanBen]

It seems counter-intuitive to suggest this, when you have a picture in your mind of a big red light or block of steel sitting in front of you, but it is a surprisingly big risk. In a way, if you are travelling very slowly, the red signal feels less hazardous ("I couldn't possibly pass that") whereas it is all too easy to carry on at the same speed until it is too late to stop in the conditions.

Quite agreed. Some of the silliest mistakes I make on Train Simulator are at at low speed.