Train fine/prosecution for not producing a ticket?

[michael769]

If they're removing it from the Avantix machine, how will that work with unmanned stations or stations where the only working ticketing facility is out of order?

Presumably they are only removing it where the starting station is one with ticket issuing facilities?

But even that will have issues as some smaller station's offices sometime close for short periods. And if ticket selling facilities means TVMS then there will be issues where the TVM does not accept the full range of payment methods.

I do hope this is being though through properly the ToCs seriously need to up their game in terms of ticket selling opportunities. I know that ticket fraud is a serious problem but the ToCs really don't make it easy for their staff to enforce the rules sometimes.

 

[Monty]

What is coming, and in fact has come for some lines is, if you board a train at a place where ticket issuing facilites were available, all the conductor on the train will be able to sell you is a anytime ticket. Thats no savers, no railcard discounts, no super off peak, just anytime singles and returns. All other fares will be removed from the avantix.

That's unlikely to happen imho, not that I don't have any problem with passengers who get sold standard full fares when they had an opportunity to purchase a ticket from a station. RPIs and Guards still need to be able to issue the full range of tickets (as much as the advantix allows anyway) for when passengers board from stations where the faculties may have been out of service or closed.

 

[jb]

I too think more consistency is needed when applying this rule. I can't count the number of threads I've seen in this forum where the unlucky traveller has genuinely believed that buying a ticket on the train, or at their destination, is acceptable

Do you mean consistency in the sense that the rule is applied universally, or do you actually mean that it isn't applied at all? I know which one I prefer.

Exactly! In Skipton, despite there being a usually open ticket office and a recently added TVM, people “know” that they can just walk onto the train and buy a ticket from the guard and the guard will be happy to sell them one. It’s been that way for the 20 years I’ve lived there and I don’t know anyone who has thought otherwise.

Leaving aside the "caveat" of not having enough time before the train arrives, I find this thinking bizarre. People who walk past ticket-purchasing opportunities to stand on the platform for a few minutes because they "know" they can buy on-board deserve everything they get IMO.

 

[CNash]

You don't understand the mindset of these passengers. They are genuinely unaware that buying on board is not acceptable! They're not all chancers, defiantly walking past ticket-buying opportunities, as you seem to think.

Why do they think this way? Because in most cases, the TOC operating the route they usually take has never strictly enforced the rules. They've had no reason to think otherwise. Now that Northern and other TOCs are cracking down, these passengers are paying for a costly "education" in the railway byelaws, and some of them are a little narked off... because they're genuinely unaware that they've done anything wrong. To them, paying on the train is the norm.

 

[Flamingo]

I don't know about Northernland, but in my experience on my patch, passengers know they should buy before boarding, but don't think it applies to them.

It comes down to a lack of deterrence - there is a much greater chance of not having to buy any ticket at all than being charged.

 

[Fare-Cop]

You don't understand the mindset of these passengers. They are genuinely unaware that buying on board is not acceptable! They're not all chancers, defiantly walking past ticket-buying opportunities, as you seem to think.

Why do they think this way? Because in most cases, the TOC operating the route they usually take has never strictly enforced the rules. They've had no reason to think otherwise. Now that Northern and other TOCs are cracking down, these passengers are paying for a costly "education" in the railway byelaws, and some of them are a little narked off... because they're genuinely unaware that they've done anything wrong. To them, paying on the train is the norm.

In understanding that this means re-education for some people, I'm interested to see the views of forum users in relation to how long people think TOCs should wait, before taking action, once they have put warnings and reminders in place at stations, on trains and on timetables etc.

 

[sheff1]

In understanding that this means re-education for some people, I'm interested to see the views of forum users in relation to how long people think TOCs should wait, before taking action, once they have put warnings and reminders in place at stations, on trains and on timetables etc.

I think TOCs should set a specific date from which they will implement the 'new' rules and be clear on which lines/in which areas this will apply. Of course the rules are not actually new, but in the minds of people who have been used, or even encouraged, to purchase on board without issue then they will be new. In some areas the practice of buying on board will have been entrenched for 20+ years. The date should be publicised by the methods you describe and, ideally, in local newspapers as well. On train announcements would also be useful during the notice period.

As to how much notice of the date is reasonable, I would vote for 28 days.

EDIT - If you want more feedback on this, might be worth starting a specific thread.

 

[Flamingo]

I work in and out of Paddington, it has been a penalty fare station for years now, posters are all over the place saying buy before you board, I will usually make an announcement to this effect before departure, but it is rare to go off an unbarriered platform and NOT find somebody with no ticket.

They usually say it's because they were running late for the train - even if I saw them on board twenty minutes before departure.

Blaming it on the TOC's not educating the public is kind of missing the point. The only thing that makes certain people buy a ticket is a bloody big barrier stopping them getting on or off the platform without a ticket. Whether they then have a valid ticket is another story, but it's half the battle that they have parted with some money.

 

[sheff1]

Blaming it on the TOC's not educating the public is kind of missing the point.

I understand what you mean, but putting up loads of posters etc and then not actually carrying through the threat, even when people are 'caught', only educates certain types of people that they can get away with it.

You have previously explained that company management does not encourage enforcement of the rules. In that case they might as well take the posters down.

The only thing that makes certain people buy a ticket is a bloody big barrier stopping them getting on or off the platform without a ticket

The squads of enforcers (up to a dozen strong, some armed) I have seen in Belgium, Germany & The Netherlands seem quite effective too

 

[Flamingo]

Enforcing the rules in a consistnt manner would cause too much hassle, and too many complaints and incident forms. These all cause an overworked manager dealing with all the other issues too much extra work, so they discourage staff from doing anything that increases theri workload. Couple that with the "feelgood" factor of senior managers / PR wanting everybody to say nice things about them on twitter, and the simple fact that it's easier to say "yes" than "no", and we have the current situation where people do know they are breaking the rules, yet react with surprise and indignation when they are enforced.

Look at the recent threads by passengers caught travelling in cabs after forcing the doors - they expected there to be no consequences. Or when FGW started blockading Filton AbbeyWoods on a daily basis. The first few weeks the revenue staff were just selling tickets and giving out warnings - these were by and large daily commuters. The third and fourth weeks they started giving out Penalty Fares to the same people, as they had ignored the previous two weeks warnings.

 

[bb21]

I understand what you mean, but putting up loads of posters etc and then not actually carrying through the threat, even when people are 'caught', only educates certain types of people that they can get away with it.

I think another issue w.r.t. the posters is that people will not read them, no matter what train companies think. In Northern-land I believe there is a case to be made that many people are genuinely unaware that boarding without tickets is an offence, due to practice inherited from Pay-Train days.

Putting a date on the posters emphasising that the rules will be enforced after a certain time is one thing that can be done to change current practice but a massive publicity campaign is required and the notice period would need to be substantial imo, so something like six-months would be more appropriate.

It is difficult for people used to the way things are done over the previous few decades to change their behaviour in a short space of time and that should be given due consideration. Northern's half-hearted attempt at the moment is not really acceptable.

 

[142094]

A few years ago I would have agreed that in Northern territory, many people would have been unaware that they had to buy at the ticket office due to historic reasons, myself included. However about 1-2 years into Northern's franchise after they took over from ATN etc, there was a gradual process where they stopped accepting railcards on board if the ticket office was open, then started only selling anytime tickets. Passengers should know by now what they can and cannot buy on board, and unfortunately, ignorance is not an excuse.

Has been suggested in the past that there should be some form of railcard available to everyone whereby they get a discoutn on tickets when bought at a ticket office (where available), which would encourage people to get a ticket before they board.

 

[michael769]

I think another issue w.r.t. the posters is that people will not read them, no matter what train companies think.

This is a reality on all walks of life but does not really offer a get-out. If people willfully fail to take notice of such signs then they risk reaping the consequences of their lack of attention.

However I agree that long standing policies of selling all tickets unconditionally has effectively educated passengers that they can do this - there is a good argument that by allowing this they have in effect being granting people permission to board without tickets and that this need to be explicitly revoked.

Surely the best approach would be a media campaign followed by an "education" phase where "offenders" were issued with their tickets along with a flyer warning that the policy has changed and that they can expect action to be taken in future. After a suitable interval (6 months say) they could switch to the "enforcement" phase.

Having said that IMO the vast majority of folks asking for help here know full well what the rules are, full well that what they were doing was wrong, their only surprise is in getting caught and in failing to charm their way out of it!

 

[jb]

Whether people are chancers or not (some are, but many aren't) isn't really the issue. Nor does the genuine unawareness (underlined or italicised as much as you like) really change anything.

"I didn't know" is the defence of the four year-old. Much of the issue stems from certain members of the travelling public expecting to be treated like four year-olds, supported by many on this forum who expect the TOCs to treat the public in that fashion. That would all be fine if they accepted that Daddy is going to punish them if they are naughty. But of course they don't want that either.

Meanwhile, those of us who are content to act and to be treated like adults get a little fed-up with it all. It's undoubtedly the case that TOCs have done plenty of "parenting" along the path of least resistance, by not enforcing the rules in the way they might. But that doesn't make the consequent bellyaching when they do enforce the rules any more edifying.

 

[Flamingo]

Having said that IMO the vast majority of folks asking for help here know full well what the rules are, full well that what they were doing was wrong, their only surprise is in getting caught and in failing to charm their way out of it!

what a great turn of phrase! I'm stealing that one

 

[jon0844]

Isn't stealing a good comment on this forum a byelaw offence?

 

[sheff1]

........... in Northern territory ........... Passengers should know by now what they can and cannot buy on board ...

But how can they know*, when a not insignificant number of Northern guards still operate the Paytrain model and sell a full range of tickets to anyone, regardless of which station they boarded at. Passengers are then understandably surprised when they encounter a guard enforcing the 'new' policy or a station blockade.

Confusion is compounded when different operators on the same route 'in Northern territory' have different policies. Take Sheffield - Doncaster:-
TPE advertise widely that you can buy on board;
XC are less clear but on the rare cases they check on this section seem to sell tickets without complaint;
on Northern (as already discussed) it appears to depend which guard you get;
with EMT you could be PF'd.

I doubt whether most passengers making this journey are really aware of which TOC runs which train and what the different policies are.

* yes I know about the NRCoC etc, but am talking about the real world where even some guards and Customer Service Team members do not know what is in the NRCoC or, on occasion, do not believe they apply to their TOC.

 

[TPJ]

At Barry Town station the notice stating you should buy a ticket at the first opportunety will not be seen by I would think 95% of passengers going to the ticket office and 100% when the ticket office is not open

 

[Greenback]

It is a difficult issue. I am sympathetic to the concerns of TOC's such as Northern, who must have realised long ago that quite a few people regularly travel without buying a ticket when overcrowded trains and short journey times between stops means that conductors cannot get around who gets on to check and sell tickets.

The increases in passenger numbers on some routes has exacerbated the situation.

Yet, at the same time I believ that not enough has bene done to encourge people to use the ticket facilities that are present. I have no doubt that there are some chancers who take advantage of barrierles sstations and crowded trains, and set out with the deliberate intention of only paying for their journey if or when they are challenged. I wouldn't like to hazard a guess, though, as to what sort of percentage we would be talking about as opposed to the numbers who genuinely don't realise that they should buy a ticket before boarding the train wherever possible.

And what should a company like Northern do about the situation? Only selling Anytime tickets on board isn't much of a deterrent when that is the fare that the passenger should be paying in the first place, or when it is only a small amount more than the off peak version. Penalty Fare schemes may help, but they tend to bring their own set of problems.

 

[buzzar]

Any idea how long it will take to receive a reply letter back from the train investigation company, if I get a reply at all?
It took them over a month to send the first letter, from the day I was cautioned at the station to the day that I received the letter (even though I was told within 5 working days by the person who questioned me?)

 

[VauxhallandI]

Any idea how long it will take to receive a reply letter back from the train investigation company, if I get a reply at all?
It took them over a month to send the first letter, from the day I was cautioned at the station to the day that I received the letter (even though I was told within 5 working days by the person who questioned me?)

Please be sure when you correspond with them you state you "bought a ticket" rather than "brought a ticket" as it may be cause for confusion.

 

[Greenback]

It tends to vary, probably due to factors such as workload, staff availability, and whether it is deemed necessary for the case to be prioritised.

 

[scarby]

Exactly! In Skipton, despite there being a usually open ticket office and a recently added TVM, people “know” that they can just walk onto the train and buy a ticket from the guard and the guard will be happy to sell them one. It’s been that way for the 20 years I’ve lived there and I don’t know anyone who has thought otherwise. It’s only by coming here for ticket advice and reading some of the other forums that I have become aware of byelaw 18 and its strict liability. Northern Rail would have a field day if they decided to enforce it in Skipton as they appear to have elsewhere and there would be an awful lot of unlucky passengers.

I'm completely with you on this - just like you I was oblivious to byelaw 18 until I came across it in this forum. Why? Because for years I have seen just as you have people buying tickets from the guard having originated from stations with ticket facilities; not to mention several operators writing clearly that they sell a "limited range" of tickets on the train etc.

The Skipton example you give is very interesting, because unless Northern communicated clearly to passengers that there was a change in "policy", surely this would be a case where if a passenger challenged a prosecution, it would be the barrister who would have a "field day" - in that this clearly constituted entrapment? I'm only surprised that no-one yet (as far as I know) has gone down this road.

 

[michael769]

Don't Northern have posters in all their stations pointing out that you need a valid ticket before you board a train unless at an unmanned station?

 

[scarby]

Don't Northern have posters in all their stations pointing out that you need a valid ticket before you board a train unless at an unmanned station?

Can't see how that would make an ounce of difference as long as guards were willingly selling tickets on the trains to passengers boarding at these stations.

 

[michael769]

Can't see how that would make an ounce of difference as long as guards were willingly selling tickets on the trains to passengers boarding at these stations.

You suggest that Northern need to tell passengers they need to buy before boarding. If a notice to that effect at every station is not sufficient I wonder what they are suppose to do?

I would suggest to you that most people know fine well that they are supposed to have a ticket, and are relying on lax enforcement to get away with it. The problem with relying on lax enforcement is that the day inevitably comes when the rules are enforced - and it turns out that our legal system does not accept lax enforcement as a valid excuse.

By the way entrapment does not mean what you seem to think it does!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would also suggest that this thread is fretting about an issue that does not really exist.

How many of the people asking for help on here have joined a train at a manned station, asked the conductor to sell them a ticket between the correct start and end stations and offered to pay the correct fare?

 

[scarby]

However I agree that long standing policies of selling all tickets unconditionally has effectively educated passengers that they can do this - there is a good argument that by allowing this they have in effect being granting people permission to board without tickets and that this need to be explicitly revoked.

You said it!

How many of the people asking for help on here have joined a train at a manned station, asked the conductor to sell them a ticket between the correct start and end stations and offered to pay the correct fare?

Sure. Good point well made.

 

[michael769]

I don't disagree that the ToCs are making life hard for themselves.

But that does not mean that people don't realise that they are really supposed to be buying the tickets up front!

The vast majority of folks asking for help on here are in trouble not because they asked a conductor for the correct ticket for their journey, but because they fibbed about the station they joined at or where caught walking past the ticket office at their destination.

 

[buzzar]

I promised that I'd post on this forum when I got a reply so here I am.
Got a letter in the post this morning; looks a standard letter which made no appropriate comments to the letter I sent them in reply to their first letter. Although I’m a bit disappointed they made no effort to personally address the issues I brought up, I understand that they must get hundreds of letters a day.
Anyway, the letter stated that because I had no previous records with them that I could simply pay the unpaid fare along with all administration cost. This came to a total of £42.50. I have no idea how they came up with this figure, seems a bit ridiculous to me but I'm just going to pay it and move on with my life. Hopefully they'll use the money to improve the rail network and not their wages.
So thank you everyone for your help, hopefully you won’t hear from me again.

 

[Flamingo]

Thanks for getting back to us.