Train Etiquette

[ralphchadkirk]

No threat, I invited him out onto the platform because I believed his manners needed some improvement.

And you don't think that someone who threatens fellow commuters (because being told to take it onto the platform because I want to teach you some manners is very much a threat - and could be construed as assault) because they asked something of you might need more lessons in manners than them?

Incredible.
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I really didn't know he was still onboard but he initiated the confrontation........he was slack and should have kept his peace because he was in the wrong.
....
Sometimes you have to stand up for what's right.

Brilliant idea. Let's introduce some laws for that shall we? When someone is alighting their only allowed to be on the train for 30 seconds after the doors have opened? Get real.

 

[GarethW]

I've seen some people become offended when offered a seat, which doesn't help either. If you've had an older person say 'Actually, I'm quite able to stand thank you' then you may just sit there and wait until you're asked next time.

People DO ask if they can sit down and I'm yet to see anyone refused, so maybe those who need to sit should simply ask? Not everyone is so frail it's visibly obvious, while you can't go assuming that a lady with a big bump is pregnant (and, boy, do you not want to make that mistake!).

Certainly happened to me on more than one occasion. I've been sworn at once on the tube by a pregnant woman. Don't give up my seat on the tube now. Still would do on the train, though the criteria has narrowed somewhat!

 

[chuckles1066]

Brilliant idea. Let's introduce some laws for that shall we? When someone is alighting their only allowed to be on the train for 30 seconds after the doors have opened? Get real.

You're not a Guardian reader, are you?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You're not a Guardian reader, are you?

Nope. Though I fail to see how one's choice of getting news and comments is relevant in this discussion :roll:

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .
He threw back some feeble response at which point I invited him out onto the platform to teach him some manners......the 18.21 gets in about seven minutes early so there was plenty of time for me to improve his education.

For some reason he suddenly got out very quickly and I haven't seen him on that train since :-?

But if I do........

And equally, there was plenty of time for you to be patient and couteous and allow him to alight in his own time. (If it was in your disposition towards other people, you might even have offered to be helpful!).

I have to say that the way you've described this little incident makes me sympathetic to the cyclist and critical of your attitude to others!

 

[Dolive22]

Greenback, I do say of quiet coach violators that if they clearly know you should point out that it isn't allowed.

I think there is something in the argument that if you weren't told that you couldn't do certain things you normally can do on a train it is unreasonable for the TOC to enforce that if they knew in advance that seat would be in quiet coach. But I never disturbed anyone. Hardly anyone ever rings me on my mobile and I have no wish to share most of my conversations with my mother who was usually sitting next to me when this happened, let alone the rest of the world, so I don't make calls on trains. It was just the principle that if I'm letting the train take the strain, I should be able to make or receive a call if I choose.

I didn't notice that I swore, and I didn't mean to. I'll have to watch my fingers in future.

As to proving that you ordered a particular ticket, I suppose all you can do is maintain that you asked for the normal ticket and offer them the opportunity to have it out in court. They can charge me with fare evasion in which case I will be asking for my costs down to itemised tyre wear when I'm acquitted because 'He asked for a child', 'I asked for an adult' isn't even within spitting distance of beyond reasonable doubt, or they can sue for the penalty fare in which case they will lose because 'He asked for a child ticket' 'How many tickets did you sell that day' 'thousands' doesn't swing it on the balance of probabilities against 'I asked for an adult and that was the only ticket I bought that day'. Of course they won't do either, because they would have to dig out the CCTV tapes and send a lawyer to the local county court.

When I put luggage on a seat it was because I wanted easy access to it without hogging table space. I packed what I wanted to read and eat on the journey and I don't want to have to get it down from the rack everytime I want a few banana chips or a different book to read. If there are spare seats no one suffers and no rules are broken. If there aren't spare seats then obviously I'm not going to put my bag on the seat. When there aren't spare seats and aren't racks I just have to have it on my lap. Luckily it turns out I can read Politics Review with my right hand while holding my rucksack with my left.

 

[scotsman]

Ha ha, the 18.21 Bristol Temple Meads to Cardiff rolled in a few weeks ago.

It stopped, the doors opened and those who needed to disembarked.

Once (apparently) finished, I got on only to encounter a middle aged bloke faffing about with his muddy, oily-chained pushbike, clearly he considered himself so important that he didn't need to get off with the ordinaries.......he took one look at me and said "hey, wait for everyone to get off first".

I replied "well you wanna stop dawdling around grand-dad, there's people stood out there in sub-zero temperatures".

He threw back some feeble response at which point I invited him out onto the platform to teach him some manners......the 18.21 gets in about seven minutes early so there was plenty of time for me to improve his education.

For some reason he suddenly got out very quickly and I haven't seen him on that train since :-?

But if I do........

Yeah, threatening violence does that to people. I assume you've never had the joy of trying to get a bike off a rack before.

 

[syorksdeano]

All this reminds me of a few years ago when travelling from Newcastle to Doncaster. I'd damaged tendons in my ankle (which I didn't know at the time), and I had a reserved seat. Anyway the train was packed and this old dear was going to have to stand as no-one was going to move for her, you know the types the ones that just tut or give that "huff".

Anyway been the nice person that I am (it's true I can be nice) I moved from my seat to let her sit down and hobbled down to first class where I knew seats would be available.

Anyway it came to the time for ticket checks and I explained that I'd given my reserved seat to this old dear and explained the ankle situation and even though I was more than willing to pay for the upgrade to first class I just got told to forget about it, which I thought was nice, even allowing me to put my foot up in the chair opposite.

I've always wondered about the no seat situation tho.....if the train has no seats remaining and customers standing all the way down the aisle and near the doors, and seats are available in first class, could you just sit in the seat?

 

[scotsman]

You're not a Guardian reader, are you?

I am from time to time. Punch me.


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I've always wondered about the no seat situation tho.....if the train has no seats remaining and customers standing all the way down the aisle and near the doors, and seats are available in first class, could you just sit in the seat?

It seems to be a common misconception - absolutely not. You can get yourself in all sorts of bother if you're caught. You could be (in ascending order of seriousness): Kicked out, excessed, penalty fared, reported for prosecution.

 

[Greenback]

Greenback, I do say of quiet coach violators that if they clearly know you should point out that it isn't allowed.

I think there is something in the argument that if you weren't told that you couldn't do certain things you normally can do on a train it is unreasonable for the TOC to enforce that if they knew in advance that seat would be in quiet coach. But I never disturbed anyone. Hardly anyone ever rings me on my mobile and I have no wish to share most of my conversations with my mother who was usually sitting next to me when this happened, let alone the rest of the world, so I don't make calls on trains. It was just the principle that if I'm letting the train take the strain, I should be able to make or receive a call if I choose.

I didn't notice that I swore, and I didn't mean to. I'll have to watch my fingers in future.

As to proving that you ordered a particular ticket, I suppose all you can do is maintain that you asked for the normal ticket and offer them the opportunity to have it out in court. They can charge me with fare evasion in which case I will be asking for my costs down to itemised tyre wear when I'm acquitted because 'He asked for a child', 'I asked for an adult' isn't even within spitting distance of beyond reasonable doubt, or they can sue for the penalty fare in which case they will lose because 'He asked for a child ticket' 'How many tickets did you sell that day' 'thousands' doesn't swing it on the balance of probabilities against 'I asked for an adult and that was the only ticket I bought that day'. Of course they won't do either, because they would have to dig out the CCTV tapes and send a lawyer to the local county court.

When I put luggage on a seat it was because I wanted easy access to it without hogging table space. I packed what I wanted to read and eat on the journey and I don't want to have to get it down from the rack everytime I want a few banana chips or a different book to read. If there are spare seats no one suffers and no rules are broken. If there aren't spare seats then obviously I'm not going to put my bag on the seat. When there aren't spare seats and aren't racks I just have to have it on my lap. Luckily it turns out I can read Politics Review with my right hand while holding my rucksack with my left.

I wasn't intending to have a go at you Usually people ar equit ehappy if a phoe rings and that person nips outside to talk, or even talks very quietly - after all quiet conversations occur in the quiet carriage all the time!

What I, and many others it seems, object to are people who like the guy in Newport last week who comes in the quiet coach with his very young chidlren, and then proceeds to have several loud conversations with their mother regarding why he is late bringing them home. He was a fine example of how rules don't apply to some people because they don't fit in with what they want. And I should add that the rules on quiet coaches are hard to enforce and should be observed by consensus!

As regards the child ticket, my observation was more to suggest that staff are bound to be sceptical, rather than immediately agree that by being issued witht hem you have been given permission to travel by an authorised person! In addition, the traveller should look at their tickets to make sure they are the right ones! I doubt it would ever get to court!

Luggage on seats is a bit of problem to me. I pack everything I need into a bag that I then place on the floor at my feet, on the pull down table if there is one or on my lap. This means I don't inconvenience anyone but myself when I want to get a biscuit or magazine out of it. Though I must admit I have placed bags on the seat on very quiet trains, but I have moved them as soon as we pull into a station where there are a few people waiting. I try and be considerate to others, even going so far as not waking them up when I want to sit down next to them!

 

[Dolive22]

I didn't feel you were having a go at me. I seem to come over very angry on screen. I assure you I appear much calmer in the flesh.

When I have luggage on seats it's on the seat next to me where there are other seats available and usually at a table. I think I've just been lucky that I usually went on holiday in the Midlands at a quiet time. Benefit of a dad who had funny shifts I suppose. Then there was an almost empty train coming back from Hull, having been on an absolutely packed train up. I don't know how that happened. I know people are friendly in Hull, but surely some of the passanger want to leave?

 

[Greenback]

At least you don't want to teach people manners on the platform!!!

 

[jon0844]

I will sometimes put my rucksack on the seat next to me, but common courtesy is to move it when people board so they don't need to ask. If nobody sits down next to me, I can put the back bag on the seat and carry on.

It's hardly much hassle and it gives you something to do on a journey. If the train is all stations, then the bag would be on the floor/luggage rack all the time though!

 

[MCR247]

I sometimes put my bag on the seat next to me. But I'll move it as soon as it gets busy.

If someone has their bag on a seat on the bus, and its the last seat, I'll proceed to sit on it (almost!), stare at the person expectedly or they might have moved it already

 

[button_boxer]

I do tend to put my bag on the seat next to me if there are plenty of other seats available. But then most of the time I'm travelling off peak and only going one stop (Derby to Sheffield on the non-stop XC). If I'm on a Chesterfield stopper I'll move the bag if it looks busy.

 

[stut]

I sometimes put my bag on the seat next to me. But I'll move it as soon as it gets busy.

Same as me, FWIW. I also know which parts of the train, at different stations, fill up, and will always put the bag at my feet when pulling in, replacing it once it's clear everybody's sat down again. I'm also not shy about asking to sit somewhere if a bag's there - it's far more often thoughtlessness than malice.

What does rather irritate is the commuters' habit of putting bags on the floor in the aisle on my line. Not only does it block the aisle, they often also dump them on top of my feet (I'm comfortably over 6' - sorry, but they're going to protrude) without even looking.

The one thing I do that does annoy some people is take an aisle seat when the window seat is unoccupied. Mostly, this is to do with my height - an aisle seat is much, much more comfortable, but also so I have elbow room to do the crossword/killer. I will, of course, stand up with good grace for anybody wanting to sit in the window seat, and make it clear that the seat is free. However, this does still seem to wind some people up. Is it really that hard to say "excuse me, please, is that seat free?" I do it all the time!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Here's another one... Read my post from earlier to get my full thoughts on this one. The quiet coach usually advises restraint against mobile phone and personal stereo use. Those are optional and voluntary things that it's reasonable to ask a few passengers to control for the benefit of others.

Kids though are not optional for most passengers who have them. And if the quiet coach is the only place with a seat, they're not going to stand somewhere with their family just so you can have a nice day. The quiet coach signs do not say "no children" or "no crying kids", so stop moaning and deal with it or move yourself to somewhere else in the train - it's a lot easier for you to move yourself than for a whole family or mother with baby to relocate.

Stop being so bloody selfish - you work on the railways (as do I) so you should know better. Railways exist for the public and the public includes kids with fare paying parents who have every right to be there. Babies cry - do you have any kids? If so, please enlighten the rest of parents of the world how you managed to stop an ill/distressed/confused or tired baby from crying. Or is your message that young families are not welcome on trains? Should they be piling into cars instead?

They are not all "brats", but you certainly seem to be.

No I do not have any kids, and I can safely advise you I will not be having any either. I dislike children - especially young ones - with a passion.

However, I do understand that travelling with kids for many people is not optional and I also I understand that kids and babies do occasionally cry / scream etc. Yound kids that are beyond this stage should be controllable.

On a local train for example there is no "quiet coach" and as such errant children are tolerated as the train is one big area with no seperate classes or designations of accommodation.

BUT, on some Intercity routes there are Quiet carriages, and they should be just that - QUIET. Whilst the sign may say no mobile phone conversations or loud stereos, it makes no mention of folk playing computer games with the sound on full blast on their laptop. Is this allowed as the sign doesn't mention it? No - it is a quiet carriage. Is it allowed (in my view) for a large group of football supporters to stand in the carriage singing loud songs and having a party - no, it is a quiet carriage.

The name of the carriage gives the game away - QUIET. And this applies to all noisy activities - including children running up and down causing a hullabaloo. My message is not that children and young families aren't welcome on trains - if the children cannot sit down quietly then they are not welcome in the quiet carriage.

If I am travelling with a group of friends I do not generally use that coach as the chances are we will be having conversations, perhaps a drink, etc - and as I do not wish to upset others and we may make a noise, I will avoid the quiet coach as we cannot guarantee being quiet. If I am on my own however I quite like the quiet carriage.

 

[Flamingo]

Some people travelling with children try to keep them from causing an annoyance to other passengers.

Some people let them run riot.

Just saying "children cry, you can't keep them quiet" is a cop-out.

Any reasonable passenger will see if a parent is making an effort to keep their children under control, be it in a quiet carriage or anywhere else on the train.

They will also see when absolutely no effort is being made. If this is the case, then as the Guard, I will have a word with the adults, and tell them to either keep the children under control, or move out of the quiet carriage.

I have small children myself - I make every effort to keep them under control on a train, or if they are noisy, I'll bring them out to the vestibule so the tantrum doesn't disturb everybody else. It's not easy, but it is possible.

 

[Darandio]

Many pet hates in this thread which totally correlate with what we experience daily, however, the worst is general attitude, something I find to be very prevalent with business types who feel that they are above everyone else on the train, including staff.

There was a guy on an XC HST last year who got on at Birmingham, had his ticket checked and promptly fell asleep. He then woke up as we passed Northallerton to realise that he wanted to be off at York for a change to Scarborough. Cue several loud swear words before charging off down the train to find the "manager".

A couple of minutes later I could hear his voice in the next carriage and he duly appeared, storming back to his seat with the guard following behind. The guard was a nice guy actually who explained that we would be arriving at Darlington shortly and there would be an East Coast service heading back to York in around 10 minutes with a FTPE connection at xxxx, all in all, he would only arrive home around 80 minutes later than planned. The guard would even make sure he was able to use the EC service free of charge as mistakes happen, people fall asleep etc etc.

However, this simply wasn't enough for the "business type" who ranted about owning a business, was enduring a busy month due to overseeing a new office opening and was basically above everyone else. Basically, as the guard had checked his ticket on leaving Birmingham, the guard should then know that this guy wants to be off at York and should make sure the train didn't depart unless he was sure this guy was not asleep on his train. So out of a good 300 pax who boarded at Birmingham, this man expects the guard to specifically remember this one person and his destination/change.

Cue a rant about customer service, a name request and the threat of sending a letter to higher management (who he claimed to know someone who knows someone) and then we were at Darlington where he departed and that was that.

I hope he did send a letter to XC and got a reply banning him from all future travel on their services, it's the least he deserved other than being thrown out of the window at 125mph!

 

[emoaconr]

People who are insistent on sitting on your seat because they think they have a reservation... in an empty carriage... or where reservation tickets haven't been put out... or they think the "14A" seat refers to seat 14 in coach A when their ticket actually says Coach C.

But otherwise I have no problem with annoying people on trains. You just get on with it. At least they're using public transport. People learn these things in time as they use them more and more. Nobody knows everything at first.

 

[Oswyntail]

... Young kids that are beyond this stage should be controllable. ....

Ah, the voice of inexperience. Yes, taking the small person out to the vestibule may well help. And bringing a "calm" child back may spark things off again. In my experience, what sets children off more than anything is parental stress - believe me, travelling with children is never an easy experience - and being told to shut the bloody child up or be thrown off the train (as happened to me some 20 years ago) is not going to help. But a calm and understanding reaction is.

 

[GNER 373]

Many pet hates in this thread which totally correlate with what we experience daily, however, the worst is general attitude, something I find to be very prevalent with business types who feel that they are above everyone else on the train, including staff.

There was a guy on an XC HST last year who got on at Birmingham, had his ticket checked and promptly fell asleep. He then woke up as we passed Northallerton to realise that he wanted to be off at York for a change to Scarborough. Cue several loud swear words before charging off down the train to find the "manager".

A couple of minutes later I could hear his voice in the next carriage and he duly appeared, storming back to his seat with the guard following behind. The guard was a nice guy actually who explained that we would be arriving at Darlington shortly and there would be an East Coast service heading back to York in around 10 minutes with a FTPE connection at xxxx, all in all, he would only arrive home around 80 minutes later than planned. The guard would even make sure he was able to use the EC service free of charge as mistakes happen, people fall asleep etc etc.

However, this simply wasn't enough for the "business type" who ranted about owning a business, was enduring a busy month due to overseeing a new office opening and was basically above everyone else. Basically, as the guard had checked his ticket on leaving Birmingham, the guard should then know that this guy wants to be off at York and should make sure the train didn't depart unless he was sure this guy was not asleep on his train. So out of a good 300 pax who boarded at Birmingham, this man expects the guard to specifically remember this one person and his destination/change.

Cue a rant about customer service, a name request and the threat of sending a letter to higher management (who he claimed to know someone who knows someone) and then we were at Darlington where he departed and that was that.

I hope he did send a letter to XC and got a reply banning him from all future travel on their services, it's the least he deserved other than being thrown out of the window at 125mph!

The only thing that I wished had been in this story is that he slept until Aberdeen or somewhere much further North and had to walk the rest of the way....what an absoulute tosspot! Is it the Staff/Train Drivers fault that he'd fallen asleep? They are there for general safety and to check tickets...What an idiot!

 

[12CSVT]

No I do not have any kids, and I can safely advise you I will not be having any either. I dislike children - especially young ones - with a passion.

However, I do understand that travelling with kids for many people is not optional and I also I understand that kids and babies do occasionally cry / scream etc. Yound kids that are beyond this stage should be controllable.

On a local train for example there is no "quiet coach" and as such errant children are tolerated as the train is one big area with no seperate classes or designations of accommodation.

BUT, on some Intercity routes there are Quiet carriages, and they should be just that - QUIET. Whilst the sign may say no mobile phone conversations or loud stereos, it makes no mention of folk playing computer games with the sound on full blast on their laptop. Is this allowed as the sign doesn't mention it? No - it is a quiet carriage. Is it allowed (in my view) for a large group of football supporters to stand in the carriage singing loud songs and having a party - no, it is a quiet carriage.

The name of the carriage gives the game away - QUIET. And this applies to all noisy activities - including children running up and down causing a hullabaloo. My message is not that children and young families aren't welcome on trains - if the children cannot sit down quietly then they are not welcome in the quiet carriage.

If I am travelling with a group of friends I do not generally use that coach as the chances are we will be having conversations, perhaps a drink, etc - and as I do not wish to upset others and we may make a noise, I will avoid the quiet coach as we cannot guarantee being quiet. If I am on my own however I quite like the quiet carriage.

In addition to this some TOCs (East Midland Trains being one) have notices in their quiet coaches specifically asking people not to make unnecessary noise. So bleeping computer games, playing music, having drunken parties and letting children run riot is covered in the notices.

 

[TGV]

Ah, the voice of inexperience. Yes, taking the small person out to the vestibule may well help. And bringing a "calm" child back may spark things off again. In my experience, what sets children off more than anything is parental stress - believe me, travelling with children is never an easy experience - and being told to shut the bloody child up or be thrown off the train (as happened to me some 20 years ago) is not going to help. But a calm and understanding reaction is.

Well said.
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No I do not have any kids, and I can safely advise you I will not be having any either. I dislike children - especially young ones - with a passion.

You don't have kids, so you've no idea what it's like. Seriously.

No further questions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some people travelling with children try to keep them from causing an annoyance to other passengers.

Some people let them run riot.

Just saying "children cry, you can't keep them quiet" is a cop-out.

Any reasonable passenger will see if a parent is making an effort to keep their children under control, be it in a quiet carriage or anywhere else on the train.

They will also see when absolutely no effort is being made. If this is the case, then as the Guard, I will have a word with the adults, and tell them to either keep the children under control, or move out of the quiet carriage.

I have small children myself - I make every effort to keep them under control on a train, or if they are noisy, I'll bring them out to the vestibule so the tantrum doesn't disturb everybody else. It's not easy, but it is possible.

I was not using a cop out. I said babies cry - they do. I never said you can't keep them quiet - but there will inevitably be times when they are very difficult to keep calm as you must know. Esp. when they're unwell or distressed and in a train where it's often noisy, moving and busy, that is distressing to a baby... and some adults!

But you have made my point exactly - "any reasonable passenger" - THAT'S the point - some people that I'm reading here are not being reasonable. Of course if we're talking about kids running up and down screaming that are of school age, then yes - I'll join in and have a word with the parents, but blindly spreading general hatred for all kids as some people are here is unhealthy and offensive.

I was on a train only yesterday with my 2 kids. One is old enough to know how to behave in public, the other is too young - he doesn't speak yet, but when he started being noisy, we entertained him to ensure he didn't offend anyone. It's bloody hard work on a long journey, but like you said, it can be done. If some smart-arsed little spotter came up to me complaining about the noise when I'm doing my best for my family and other more reasonable passengers, they'd be starting a losing argument.

 

[GodAtum]

I try not to get annoyed on public transport and tolerate other people. But I dont mind shoving people who try to get on the train as soon as the doors open!

 

[Flamingo]

I was not using a cop out. I said babies cry - they do. I never said you can't keep them quiet - but there will inevitably be times when they are very difficult to keep calm as you must know. Esp. when they're unwell or distressed and in a train where it's often noisy, moving and busy, that is distressing to a baby... and some adults!

But you have made my point exactly - "any reasonable passenger" - THAT'S the point - some people that I'm reading here are not being reasonable. Of course if we're talking about kids running up and down screaming that are of school age, then yes - I'll join in and have a word with the parents, but blindly spreading general hatred for all kids as some people are here is unhealthy and offensive.

I was on a train only yesterday with my 2 kids. One is old enough to know how to behave in public, the other is too young - he doesn't speak yet, but when he started being noisy, we entertained him to ensure he didn't offend anyone. It's bloody hard work on a long journey, but like you said, it can be done. If some smart-arsed little spotter came up to me complaining about the noise when I'm doing my best for my family and other more reasonable passengers, they'd be starting a losing argument.

I wasn't referring to any specific post on this thread, more the type of passenger who thinks that they can sit in the quiet carriage with an uncontrolled brood and say "They're kids, what do you expect" when you tell them to control them.

We seem to agree with each other otherwise . It's not easy, but that's no excuse for not making the effort, or positively encouraging the little darlings to "express themselves".

 

[Greenback]

I fear that there is a lack of parenting skills in some people. I have seen mums and dads completely ignore their young children on quite long journeys while they make interminable calls on their mobiles, discussing the soaps, football scores and all sorts of other trivia. In the meantime the children are crying, screaming, running up and down or fighting, annying othe rpassnegers in the process, whether this is in the quiet carriage or not.

It's these sorts of things I object to rather than responsible parents like TGV who do try and look after their children in difficult circumstances.

 

[Flamingo]

ps, I had an "unreasonable" passenger reduce a mother and children to tears a few weeks ago screaming abuse at them for making noise. The kids were actually very well behaved, (which was backed up by other passengers around) it was just some little madam who had an inflated sense of her own importance (again, backed up by other passengers). I moved the family, and then gave the female a bollocking. If she hadn't been alighting at the next stop, I'd have chucked her off there anyway. Another complaint for my manager to read, I think...

 

[Greenback]

The theme to this thread seems to be how many people there are who think that they are special in some way, and above everybody else on the train!

 

[Sapphire Blue]

The theme to this thread seems to be how many people there are who think that they are special in some way, and above everybody else on the train!

Like people who think they are above those who like football and soaps maybe.

Next time I'm on my mobile on a train I must remember only to talk loudly about the works of John Keats and the latest Royal Ballet tour!