Train Driving to Airline Flying?

[Economist]

I've noticed a couple of people on here who've made the move from flying to train driving but was wondering if anyone has been successful in going from the driving cab to the flight deck?
I've been a driver for several years now and think it's a fantastic job, enjoyable, great colleagues, conditions etc. That being said growing up I wanted to fly for a living and training costs were a problem until recently, I fly on a PPL as a hobby, flying is the only career away from train driving I'd want to do. My head says stay in the driving grade but my heart says if I got to 65 without giving commercial flying a go I'd regret it. Has anyone tried ATPL theory whilst working full-time driving trains? Am I mad for considering a move away from the driving grade?

Mods - Since it's career-related I've started the thread in the Railway Jobs & Careers forum but happy for it to be moved if it's not deemed relevant.

 

[Snowman84]

Hello, I'm not a driver but completed my PPL a few year ago an my brother is a capatain for a major uk airline. He done his training at FTE Jerez, and I can remember the course being very intense so would imagine it being a challenge to complete any of the ATPL Theory whilst working. Having said that, anything is possible

I've considered the same as a career move also - have you looked up the TUI Cadet Programme or BA Speedbird as they are both fully sponsored right up to type rating with a job at the end of it.........although living costs would have to be self funded if you have family and a mortgage for example

 

[12guard4]

I think the costs stop the majority. As mentioned above even if you get on one of the few schemes, you still have costs.

 

[notadriver]

Just go for it. You’re only 40. They are crying out for pilots. I would if I was younger.

 

[DesiroOperator]

Go get a class 1 medical first (if you can’t pass one then no point spending the money on any theory or flight training beyond PPL). Theory via distance learning with a school like BGS in cheddar is more than manageable alongside work, more affordable whilst earning too.

It’s an expensive road to run with few schemes offering any financial support left. If you go the modular (do each part separately.. PPL. CPL, Multi Engine, Instrument Rating, ATPL theory) route whilst still working as a driver it is probably financially far easier than finding £80-100k up front for an integrated course (all the above roles into one continuous course), but there is still a debate over which gets you a job quicker.

It’s a very different industry and you’ll find far less support and union involvement. You’ll be reassessed every 6 months on top of an annual ride out and you’ll be expected to demonstrate mastery each time, the book won’t be open anymore, nor is a trip to the sim straightforward. Moreover as you’re seeing you’ll be expected to pay for all of your training (some of which is argue should be the airline’s responsibility).

It is however quite a rewarding job with many opportunities and day to day isn’t rocket science at all, I think many people can learn to fly, that said those that excel in the role do need some in built aptitude, and you’ll always be studying. You’ll also find the hours potentially less sociable than you’re already used to.

Flying aircraft is amazing but I always found flying a C172 far more fun than flying a jet tbh, so even if the commercial side of things doesn’t work for you I’d highly recommend enjoying your PPL and maybe adding in an IMC or ME rating to expand your experiences.

 

[43066]

Has anyone tried ATPL theory whilst working full-time driving trains? Am I mad for considering a move away from the driving grade?

Perfectly doable while working full time, if you are motivated and believe it will lead somewhere. The thing that has totally demystified it for me (and ultimately put me off pursuing it as a career) is knowing some experienced airline pilots!

The market for new pilots is seemingly good now - the issue of course is that if you commence training now you may qualify just as the market slumps again. The best advice is to keep the driving going and flex your training around that.

Go get a class 1 medical first (if you can’t pass one then no point spending the money on any theory or flight training beyond PPL). Theory via distance learning with a school like BGS in cheddar is more than manageable alongside work, more affordable whilst earning too.

It’s an expensive road to run with few schemes offering any financial support left. If you go the modular (do each part separately.. PPL. CPL, Multi Engine, Instrument Rating, ATPL theory) route whilst still working as a driver it is probably financially far easier than finding £80-100k up front for an integrated course (all the above roles into one continuous course), but there is still a debate over which gets you a job quicker.

It’s a very different industry and you’ll find far less support and union involvement. You’ll be reassessed every 6 months on top of an annual ride out and you’ll be expected to demonstrate mastery each time, the book won’t be open anymore, nor is a trip to the sim straightforward. Moreover as you’re seeing you’ll be expected to pay for all of your training (some of which is argue should be the airline’s responsibility).

It is however quite a rewarding job with many opportunities and day to day isn’t rocket science at all, I think many people can learn to fly, that said those that excel in the role do need some in built aptitude, and you’ll always be studying. You’ll also find the hours potentially less sociable than you’re already used to.

Flying aircraft is amazing but I always found flying a C172 far more fun than flying a jet tbh, so even if the commercial side of things doesn’t work for you I’d highly recommend enjoying your PPL and maybe adding in an IMC or ME rating to expand your experiences.

From previous posts you were an airline FO who went train driving? Any desire to go flying again? Out of interest, what took you away from flying and in the direction of the railway?

The interests certainly cross over, and I know a few drivers including myself (a PPL) who have varying level of pilot qualifications, and indeed several professional pilots who like trains more than they’d admit to their colleagues .

 

[DesiroOperator]

Perfectly doable while working full time, if you are motivated and believe it will lead somewhere. The thing that has totally demystified it for me (and ultimately put me off pursuing it as a career) is knowing some experienced airline pilots!

The market for new pilots is seemingly good now - the issue of course is that if you commence training now you may qualify just as the market slumps again. The best advice is to keep the driving going and flex your training around that.



From previous posts you were an airline FO who went train driving? Any desire to go flying again? Out of interest, what took you away from flying and in the direction of the railway?

I know the interests cross over, and I know a few drivers including myself (a PPL) who have varying level of pilot qualifications, and indeed several pilots who like trains more than they’d admit to their colleagues

I left the cockpit for a combination of reasons rather than one alone I guess, and they still exist, so flying again is definitely not in my future… except in something with a prop for fun.

The non-technical skills have plenty of cross over and in many ways the industries could learn from one another.

I know Industrial relations at some TOC’s are “strained” (might be generous), but the airline world is something else, and with margins as tight as they are, airline companies are often in a fight for survival which can be stressful, (I don’t think I know many pilots that haven’t at some point faced furlough or redundancy when some
world event has hit).

Airlines don’t tend to be very good at saving for rainy days (shareholders to pay) so along comes Covid and … some fairly nasty outcomes for front line workers. (Even BA engaged in fire and rehire).

It’s also far from the glamorous job that many imagine. Crawling out of bed at 1am on the clock (your home base time) to head to report after spending the previous 8 hours staring at the ceiling never gets easier. Crew meals, jet lag induced IBS (really) and being out of the country for 9 days over a loved ones birthday all take their toll.

That said it is a career that can get into your blood. The sun rise over the ocean west of Australia, a Kingston Approach into JFK, the utter efficiency that the controllers in the UK display in handling our congested airspace. Staff travel, 5 star hotels and great bunch of diverse work colleagues combine to make it amazing fun. Plus perfecting your technical ability to control several hundred tonnes onto a runway is rewarding.

But the direction of crew planning and terms of employment since the late 90s, when I started, has made it a young person’s career I feel. (Or maybe just more difficult for people my age). It’s harder for those with families and I couldn’t envisage keeping up with the schedule in my, ahem, twilight years. (My pattern at one point was 6 on 1 off 5 on 2 off repeat, until I maxed out my hours and they had to give me more time off or force some leave. It can be brutal.

But the bigger thing is, if you like it, you’ll put up with all the negatives no questions, because it is so rare. Unless, as in my case, life comes along and shakes you a bit.

 

[Economist]

Thank you for all of the replies so far. I've started the ball rolling on the Class 1 process, it's involved a couple of referrals, one I've definitely passed, the other I've been told I'm highly likely to pass.
I put in for the Speedbird Academy the past two years, unfortunately didn't make the cut, I'm not allowed to apply for the TUI version since I have over 100 flying hours. Financially, I could just about self-fund integrated whereas I couldn't before train driving, however I'd be mad to leave the driving cab without some sort of airline contract in my hand. Unless a fully-funded airline programme accepts me it'll be the modular route for me.

Just go for it. You’re only 40. They are crying out for pilots. I would if I was younger.

Haha, I'm still in the first half of my thirties!

It is however quite a rewarding job with many opportunities and day to day isn’t rocket science at all, I think many people can learn to fly, that said those that excel in the role do need some in built aptitude, and you’ll always be studying. You’ll also find the hours potentially less sociable than you’re already used to.

Flying aircraft is amazing but I always found flying a C172 far more fun than flying a jet tbh, so even if the commercial side of things doesn’t work for you I’d highly recommend enjoying your PPL and maybe adding in an IMC or ME rating to expand your experiences.

I take it the hours are worse often due to the jetlag of long-haul and/or time spent downroute. Something I've thought a bit because it seems outside of Aer Lingus/Ryanair/Easyjet there are very few places which have a fixed roster.
Did you find a C172 more fun due to a lot of airline flying being more systems-management based? I've only ever experienced an Airbus in a simulator environment but the design philosophy appears to be to optimise it for as much automation as possible as far as the flying is concerned.

Perfectly doable while working full time, if you are motivated and believe it will lead somewhere. The thing that has totally demystified it for me (and ultimately put me off pursuing it as a career) is knowing some experienced airline pilots!

The market for new pilots is seemingly good now - the issue of course is that if you commence training now you may qualify just as the market slumps again. The best advice is to keep the driving going and flex your training around that.

I recall you mentioning a fellow whose airline wanted to send to Scandinavia for six months of the year with the remaining six months in the UK. Do the folks you know complain about the job as much as some of the drivers in our messrooms?! I never expected the industry to rebound so quickly after the pandemic, if I had I may have started commercial training earlier but it's so difficult to predict the peaks and troughs of the airline industry. One of the reasons I'd like to see more sponsored programmes is that the airlines have skin in the game with those.

I left the cockpit for a combination of reasons rather than one alone I guess, and they still exist, so flying again is definitely not in my future… except in something with a prop for fun.

The non-technical skills have plenty of cross over and in many ways the industries could learn from one another.

I know Industrial relations at some TOC’s are “strained” (might be generous), but the airline world is something else, and with margins as tight as they are, airline companies are often in a fight for survival which can be stressful, (I don’t think I know many pilots that haven’t at some point faced furlough or redundancy when some
world event has hit).

Airlines don’t tend to be very good at saving for rainy days (shareholders to pay) so along comes Covid and … some fairly nasty outcomes for front line workers. (Even BA engaged in fire and rehire).

It’s also far from the glamorous job that many imagine. Crawling out of bed at 1am on the clock (your home base time) to head to report after spending the previous 8 hours staring at the ceiling never gets easier. Crew meals, jet lag induced IBS (really) and being out of the country for 9 days over a loved ones birthday all take their toll.

That said it is a career that can get into your blood. The sun rise over the ocean west of Australia, a Kingston Approach into JFK, the utter efficiency that the controllers in the UK display in handling our congested airspace. Staff travel, 5 star hotels and great bunch of diverse work colleagues combine to make it amazing fun. Plus perfecting your technical ability to control several hundred tonnes onto a runway is rewarding.

But the direction of crew planning and terms of employment since the late 90s, when I started, has made it a young person’s career I feel. (Or maybe just more difficult for people my age). It’s harder for those with families and I couldn’t envisage keeping up with the schedule in my, ahem, twilight years. (My pattern at one point was 6 on 1 off 5 on 2 off repeat, until I maxed out my hours and they had to give me more time off or force some leave. It can be brutal.

But the bigger thing is, if you like it, you’ll put up with all the negatives no questions, because it is so rare. Unless, as in my case, life comes along and shakes you a bit.

Compared with the railway, especially the passenger side, the aviation industry appears red in tooth and claw and I get the impression that BALPA are nowhere nearly as strong as ASLEF. 6/1/5/2 sounds very tough, we've got a fellow at my TOC who does something that entirely by choice and he's probably going to be on similar to a BA Euroflyer captain or relatively senior BA/Virgin FO. I'm quite lucky in that I've swapped for permanent lates at my current TOC and having a stable sleep pattern is great. I was speaking to a 777 FO at a Big Airline and he despite being fairly senior and fleet and seat I got the impression he'd have wanted my roster and union. As you've said though, once the flying bug bites it can be very difficult to let aviation go. Have you thought about instructing PPLs part-time around train driving at some point?

 

[pug1]

Economist, I can’t really contribute much more than what DesiroOperator has. I’ve also never been involved in the rail industry. I would like to advise though that you should seriously consider the integrated route at an FTO (Flight Training Organisation) that has proven links to airlines (easyJet being the main one!). You should look at the easyJet MPL, you will have to fork out the costs up front but you will have a job at the end on the condition of successfully completing the training course, you would of course need to leave your current job to do this.

As far as the ATPL studies are concerned, it is entirely possible to complete this around your job IF you have the motivation to succeed. Even with the part time distance learning options you have to do a mandatory number of hours in a classroom, usually called brush up weeks. You will do one of these for each module of exams. I attempted distance learning and just couldn’t do it, so I enrolled on a residential course where I was successful in passing all exams first time with a high average. However this meant leaving my well paid non flying airline job to complete.

The job itself is very much dependant on who you work for. The leisure airlines like easyJet, Jet2 and TUI tend to work you to the bone in the summer (good luck getting the leave when you want it by the way!) and quieter rosters in winter (except Christmas Day where you will invariably be on a contactable reserve or standby, even if the airline don’t have scheduled flights on the 25th, you’ll probably fly on Christmas Eve or Boxing Day though!) with more standby duties at home and in the airport. Most work to a random roster usually published half way through the month for the following month. Some do have a fixed pattern of 5/4/5/3 (this option is available at easyJet once reaching the rank of Senior First Officer) or simply 5/4, but this can be more fatiguing than random roster, although you can at least plan your life! You will work most weekends, you will in some cases work late into the night and you will be surprised about how long your day at work can be even when considering the FTL’s - the crewing departments tend to use these as targets rather than limits!

Some airlines let the unions in fully (easyJet with Balpa), some only on pay (Jet2 have historically had a frosty relationship with Balpa). You’ll find it’s not the same as the railway industry.

Pay can vary wildly. At most leisure/low cost airlines you can expect to start as a Second Officer on a fairly reasonable £60k per year. Once you reach a requisite number of hours (usually around 1250 on type) you will be promoted to First Officer and gain a fairly nice chunk of cash which usually includes per diems on top of the base salary. However at some regional airlines (where entry level positions are still very competitive and it’s often who you know..) the pay can work out to be less than minimum wage when taking into account the number of hours spent at work!!

Time to command varies from company to company. In some it is a fairly quick (6 years) transition and based on your competency. At others it is a dark art and not very transparent. However you should be able to become a Senior First Officer and gain further uplift in salary (and get an extra bar on your epaulettes) within a few years of starting.

If you’re looking at easyJet be prepared that you would have to fund your own Type Rating which will cost more than £30k, you will not be paid a penny by easyJet until you start your induction with easyJet themselves, this will be after completion of the type rating. This is done full time and will take around 2 months. You will need to source accomodation.

Ryanair have traditionally been the first airline for most fresh fATPL holders but BE WARNED!! Because of Brexit they are an Irish airline on the Irish register and therefore you will need an EASA licence to work for them. They do operate aircraft on the G-Reg, but the recruitment onto that fleet is very limited and they rarely recruit cadets that hold only a U.K. CAA licence. Gaining a dual licence can add significant cost - research this. Like with easyJet you will be expected to self sponsor the Type Rating which is around £29k last time I checked.

The job is a good one, there are other non airline flying jobs that can be rewarding but may not pay quite as much. It does have its frustrations, this summer has been one of significant slot delays, when you’re rostered to fly just remember that you have no idea what time you will arrive home! Also be mindful that in any downturn airlines are often the first to take the hit and the last to recover, Covid bucked this trend but only because of the pent up demand that now seems to be levelling off.

I’m not sure where you are located but be prepared to move literally anywhere, at least for your first flying job. If you live in the South East and your employer has a massive base or two there they will inevitably send you to Glasgow or Belfast for no apparent reason whatsoever. You will then enter the base transfer process which can be fairly rapid of potentially take months/years to be granted.

Any questions please feel free to fire away, and best of luck with gaining your Class 1 as that’s the first hurdle to jump through.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Ryanair

A friend works for Ryanair as a captain and absolutely loves it. They have a lot of SOPs, much more than other airlines, but they generally ignore their crews if everything is working according to plan. He made it to captain in just over 4 years, and as he's based in Malaga, he sees plenty of decent long sectors of 3-4 hours each. He also says that once he reaches 800 hours or so for the year, then a lot of his duties are actually on standby as to avoid busting the 900 hour limit.

What he does say is that Ryanair is not an airline for a pilot if you can't do things by the book. They have probably the best training in Europe, and getting extra sim time is a matter of simply asking for it, but they really focus on following their processes rather than 'doing it your way'. I asked whether those SOPs were a nusiance, and he said that they actually make life much easier. For example, they are expected to get the plane down in the touchdown zone every time without fail, even if it involves putting it down quite hard.

 

[gabrielhj07]

They have a lot of SOPs, much more than other airlines, but they generally ignore their crews if everything is working according to plan.

What does this mean, that they have plenty of scope for departing from SOPs in the right/justifiable circumstances?

 

[pug1]

A friend works for Ryanair as a captain and absolutely loves it. They have a lot of SOPs, much more than other airlines, but they generally ignore their crews if everything is working according to plan. He made it to captain in just over 4 years, and as he's based in Malaga, he sees plenty of decent long sectors of 3-4 hours each. He also says that once he reaches 800 hours or so for the year, then a lot of his duties are actually on standby as to avoid busting the 900 hour limit.

What he does say is that Ryanair is not an airline for a pilot if you can't do things by the book. They have probably the best training in Europe, and getting extra sim time is a matter of simply asking for it, but they really focus on following their processes rather than 'doing it your way'. I asked whether those SOPs were a nusiance, and he said that they actually make life much easier. For example, they are expected to get the plane down in the touchdown zone every time without fail, even if it involves putting it down quite hard.

Interesting, I’ve never worked for Ryanair and I’m aware their SOP’s (Standard Operating Procedures) are quite rigid and not open to interpretation as you may see elsewhere. However every airline in the U.K. operates to stringent SOPs and landing witching the touch down zone is vital for ensuring the rollout can be completed within the runway available. Runway excursion is a significant risk. Also, there is a falsehood that Ryanair like to ‘smack it in’. The Boeing 737NG is designed to ‘connect’ and has a relatively high inspection limit on the main gear for this reason. If you don’t get it in the touchdown zone you are going around and that may be less than ideal for Ryanair who are time conscious (though they will not promote avoiding a go around for obvious reasons!).

They do have a good time to command as you say, they also operate to a fixed 5 on 4 off roster pattern which works for a lot of people. But I understand that getting time off outside of rostered days off can be a nightmare for some, and like I said in my post if you don’t have an EASA licence you aren’t likely to get very far with them when applying for jobs - so any UK prospective pilot will need to complete a dual licence which is costly and time consuming as you will need to complete the ATPL exams twice! You will also pay for your Type Rating (around £29,000) and will not receive any pay until this is completed and you become a Ryanair employee which could be a good few months!

Brexit ‘benefits’ I suppose.

 

[Cloud Strife]

However every airline in the U.K. operates to stringent SOPs and landing witching the touch down zone is vital for ensuring the rollout can be completed within the runway available. Runway excursion is a significant risk. Also, there is a falsehood that Ryanair like to ‘smack it in’. The Boeing 737NG is designed to ‘connect’ and has a relatively high inspection limit on the main gear for this reason. If you don’t get it in the touchdown zone you are going around and that may be less than ideal for Ryanair who are time conscious (though they will not promote avoiding a go around for obvious reasons!).

Isn't also part of it that the 737NG main gear was somewhat overengineered, so it can cope with hard landings without needing to flare at all? About Ryanair in particular, I've heard from several sources that Ryanair don't really consider "passenger comfort" on landing as being important, especially when compared to the risks and bad publicity of a runway excursion. Part of it is down to the fact that they fly to plenty of places where there really isn't the room to risk floating down the runway, such as Mykonos, and it makes far more sense to have pilots putting it down hard every time than to have different rules for each airport.

Having said that, I'm well aware that a "hard" landing on Ryanair is still well within the structural limits of the plane, and that a smooth landing is not necesssarily the best or safest. I'd certainly prefer the average pilot to put it down hard over making a butter smooth landing, even at airports where they've got plenty of runway to work with.

What does this mean, that they have plenty of scope for departing from SOPs in the right/justifiable circumstances?

No, rather that they simply don't bother their crews if everything is performed as it should be. They expect the SOPs to be followed to the letter, and for many years, they've encouraged captains to think carefully about the amount of fuel actually taken. Yet, if all is in accordance with their rules, they generally leave their pilots alone and don't bother them with needless discussions. My friend explained their fuel policy as: as long as you can explain everything in a rational way, you won't be bothered about it. They're not going to be happy if you take extra fuel on a perfect day between two lightly used airports without severe weather problems (e.g. Billund and Poznań), but no-one is going to bother their pilots over taking extra fuel on a stormy day between Barcelona and Rome.

 

[pug1]

Isn't also part of it that the 737NG main gear was somewhat overengineered, so it can cope with hard landings without needing to flare at all? About Ryanair in particular, I've heard from several sources that Ryanair don't really consider "passenger comfort" on landing as being important, especially when compared to the risks and bad publicity of a runway excursion. Part of it is down to the fact that they fly to plenty of places where there really isn't the room to risk floating down the runway, such as Mykonos, and it makes far more sense to have pilots putting it down hard every time than to have different rules for each airport.

Having said that, I'm well aware that a "hard" landing on Ryanair is still well within the structural limits of the plane, and that a smooth landing is not necesssarily the best or safest. I'd certainly prefer the average pilot to put it down hard over making a butter smooth landing, even at airports where they've got plenty of runway to work with.



No, rather that they simply don't bother their crews if everything is performed as it should be. They expect the SOPs to be followed to the letter, and for many years, they've encouraged captains to think carefully about the amount of fuel actually taken. Yet, if all is in accordance with their rules, they generally leave their pilots alone and don't bother them with needless discussions. My friend explained their fuel policy as: as long as you can explain everything in a rational way, you won't be bothered about it. They're not going to be happy if you take extra fuel on a perfect day between two lightly used airports without severe weather problems (e.g. Billund and Poznań), but no-one is going to bother their pilots over taking extra fuel on a stormy day between Barcelona and Rome.

Ryanair will just operate to the manufacturer standards, I’m not sure completely but I doubt their landings are any different to any other 737NG operator. They may have the short field performance kit which, I may be wrong, but I believe increases the inspection limit (or it might reduce it slightly I can’t remember.) Boeing do say that a hard landing is one determined by the pilots though, so maybe Ryanair’s idea of a hard landing is different from other operators

 

[Economist]

Thank you for the further replies. I've had a look at the easyJet MPL though there does seem to have been training delays recently and with it being self-funded the airline doesn't really have the same "skin in the game" as an airline running a fully-funded programme. One of the attractions about a fully-funded programme is that if there is a significant economic/political event, the airline has a bit more of a vested interest in getting the cadets they're funding through training and into a role with the airline even if no flying slots are immediately available.

The easyJet/Ryanair fixed roster patterns like good, I believe Aer Lingus has a similar pattern too, at least for short-haul. I must admit I was a little bit surprised when I first read about the roster at places like Jet2, TUI, Eastern etc. I know BA has always been bid by seniority and I know Virgin has a bidding system but I can see why random rosters aren't popular.

I'm eligible to live and work in the EU due to having access to an EU passport through ancestry so I'm looking at doing a dual UK/EASA licence.

Looking at the whole process it's easy to see why it has to a large extent become a rich kids' game. I'd say it's clear that the railway is the better industry out of the two to work in and in some ways I'm amazed BALPA has let things slide to the extent that they have. I know it's a harder industry to operate a union in due to the options for labour arbitrage and self-funding of training always existing but I don't see ASLEF allowing half of the practises which seem to be normal in aviation.

 

[pug1]

Thank you for the further replies. I've had a look at the easyJet MPL though there does seem to have been training delays recently and with it being self-funded the airline doesn't really have the same "skin in the game" as an airline running a fully-funded programme. One of the attractions about a fully-funded programme is that if there is a significant economic/political event, the airline has a bit more of a vested interest in getting the cadets they're funding through training and into a role with the airline even if no flying slots are immediately available.

The easyJet/Ryanair fixed roster patterns like good, I believe Aer Lingus has a similar pattern too, at least for short-haul. I must admit I was a little bit surprised when I first read about the roster at places like Jet2, TUI, Eastern etc. I know BA has always been bid by seniority and I know Virgin has a bidding system but I can see why random rosters aren't popular.

I'm eligible to live and work in the EU due to having access to an EU passport through ancestry so I'm looking at doing a dual UK/EASA licence.

Looking at the whole process it's easy to see why it has to a large extent become a rich kids' game. I'd say it's clear that the railway is the better industry out of the two to work in and in some ways I'm amazed BALPA has let things slide to the extent that they have. I know it's a harder industry to operate a union in due to the options for labour arbitrage and self-funding of training always existing but I don't see ASLEF allowing half of the practises which seem to be normal in aviation.

Whilst you are correct in that a fully funded scheme can offer more security, be warned that places on these schemes are rare as rocking horse droppings. Someone posted elsewhere recently about the TUI fully sponsored MPL;

6000 applicants
2000 interviews (most presumably video interviews whittling down to a manageable number to invite for assessment)
30 offered a position.

In my crude maths that would be a 0.5% chance of success. No reason to believe the BA Speedbird course is any less competitive. You will be up against people who don’t care about rosters, unionisation and high pay. I’d say half of the reason the unions can’t get as much traction as they get in the rail industry is because of years of self funding (like you mentioned) but then actually having to get a job. None of the smaller operators or regional airlines would survive if they had the same level of unionisation as the rail industry, and even the major established airlines would struggle at times. The US is better unionised, and people often point to that as an example of how our airline industry should look, but these people are missing a key point. US is mainly domestic air connections where there are no viable surface alternatives. In the U.K. the vast majority of people flying are doing so to go on holiday, to that end they are influenced far more by any economic downturns (think I said previously that airlines are the first to take the hit and the last to recover!) than their rail or US counterparts.

I believe easyJet are one of the best for employees at the moment, their MPL offers conditional offer of a job. Unless you go modular to save a bit of money it’s probably the one I’d be aiming to get a place on! Going modular can limit your options for first job, and getting your first job is one of the hardest parts of flight training!

 

[Cloud Strife]

I'd say it's clear that the railway is the better industry out of the two to work in

In some ways, yes, although the earnings in aviation can be considerably more once you reach the left hand seat. There's also the career aspect, which might not be so relevant at the LCCs with a single type, but airlines like BA still offer a fairly well defined career progression from short haul onto long haul and then onto the left hand seat. In comparison, the railway doesn't really have much to offer, and you certainly aren't constantly studying the machine like you do in a plane. I would argue that route knowledge, although incredibly difficult in its own right, still doesn't compare to the demands of becoming a captain on something like the 737 or A320.

 

[TravelDream]

Whilst you are correct in that a fully funded scheme can offer more security, be warned that places on these schemes are rare as rocking horse droppings. Someone posted elsewhere recently about the TUI fully sponsored MPL;

6000 applicants
2000 interviews (most presumably video interviews whittling down to a manageable number to invite for assessment)
30 offered a position.

In my crude maths that would be a 0.5% chance of success. No reason to believe the BA Speedbird course is any less competitive.

You're right. In fact it was more competitive.

24,000 applications. 8,000 moved forward to the online assessment stage. 60 places.

0.25% of those initial applications and 0.75% of those who went though to the online assessment stage got in.

Though BA upped the number of places to 100 so it ended up at 1.25% of those in the second stage.

If looking for sponsored, options are very limited. BA, TUI and Aer Lingus would be the three airlines Brits can apply for.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I'm eligible to live and work in the EU due to having access to an EU passport through ancestry so I'm looking at doing a dual UK/EASA licence.

Be aware that the dual license isn't an option if you were to do the easyJet MPL; you'd have to choose between UK License (& therefore base), or EU.

 

[DesiroOperator]

I wouldn’t count on a fully sponsored scheme. I got on one but two courses of 15 cadets out of 12000 initial applicants. Plus this was some time ago. When they were actually less rare.

 

[Terry Tibbs]

Before jumping ship to a career in aviation I would have a good think about what you want that career to look like and compare that to your age and estimated time of finishing training. For example if you are 40 now and your goal is to sit in the LHS of a UK based long haul passenger carrier then it’s highly unlikely you will achieve this. Barring some unforeseen and massive change in the industry the timescales just do not work. On the other hand if you are 21 and want to work out of a regional base for a budget carrier then it’s highly likely you’d achieve command by your late 20s.
There does appear to be a shortage of pilots who have a UK licence and the right to live and work in the UK. Each airline in the UK is after this ever diminishing pool of individuals. I’d like to think this would encourage an increase in the number of sponsorships available. A sponsored cadet is a guaranteed pilot (unless they fail the course) and it gives the airline certainty when planning.
I wouldn’t say you are expected to show mastery when in the sim. Flying is just a small part of the job. Nor are you expected to be constantly studying. I’d go as far to say if you are constantly studying then something is not quite right.
Do not be put off by the statistics on recruitment. Someone/some people will to be given the job so just try your best and go for it. I believe there are courses you can enrol on (1/2 day one) which will prepare you for interviews and assessments. Maybe consider one of these.
The work life balance of the airlines differ wildly. Some will have you there and back every day of duty. Always in your own bed, no nightstop, no hotels, only short flights. Some will have you on 9 day trips where you’re away for a long time in different hotels and different time zones in different countries. Depending on where you are in your life - single, family etc - could you cope? My point is that you may live in London with a family and would like a job with a touring airline but after finishing training you are offered a job in Glasgow with a budget carrier. Is that something you’d want?
Aviation is notoriously unpredictable even during times of relative stability. It is also evolving rapidly. The concept of reduced crew operations, if brought in, will change the job enormously. The job will potentially look totally different in 20 years to what it is now.
Earnings are good in aviation but probably job security is much better in the rail industry. If you’re in a seniority based airline you’ll not have the best rosters for a long time. But once you’re at the top you’ll have great rosters. Again think about where you are in your life and if you can cope with that.
Aviation is not a rich kid’s game. I certainly did not come in as a rich kid. But I was fortunate enough to secure a place on a scheme with an airline in the early 2000s. Most of my contemporaries were not rich kids. But some people in the industry are ‘rich‘ and they had the good fortune of being so which meant they could enter the industry under their own steam. Good fortune will play a role in anyone’s aviation career. There is a lot of right place, right time for those who are successful. And that you cannot control.
Good luck to anyone who makes the move.

 

[DesiroOperator]

Before jumping ship to a career in aviation I would have a good think about what you want that career to look like and compare that to your age and estimated time of finishing training. For example if you are 40 now and your goal is to sit in the LHS of a UK based long haul passenger carrier then it’s highly unlikely you will achieve this. Barring some unforeseen and massive change in the industry the timescales just do not work. On the other hand if you are 21 and want to work out of a regional base for a budget carrier then it’s highly likely you’d achieve command by your late 20s.
There does appear to be a shortage of pilots who have a UK licence and the right to live and work in the UK. Each airline in the UK is after this ever diminishing pool of individuals. I’d like to think this would encourage an increase in the number of sponsorships available. A sponsored cadet is a guaranteed pilot (unless they fail the course) and it gives the airline certainty when planning.
I wouldn’t say you are expected to show mastery when in the sim. Flying is just a small part of the job. Nor are you expected to be constantly studying. I’d go as far to say if you are constantly studying then something is not quite right.
Do not be put off by the statistics on recruitment. Someone/some people will to be given the job so just try your best and go for it. I believe there are courses you can enrol on (1/2 day one) which will prepare you for interviews and assessments. Maybe consider one of these.
The work life balance of the airlines differ wildly. Some will have you there and back every day of duty. Always in your own bed, no nightstop, no hotels, only short flights. Some will have you on 9 day trips where you’re away for a long time in different hotels and different time zones in different countries. Depending on where you are in your life - single, family etc - could you cope? My point is that you may live in London with a family and would like a job with a touring airline but after finishing training you are offered a job in Glasgow with a budget carrier. Is that something you’d want?
Aviation is notoriously unpredictable even during times of relative stability. It is also evolving rapidly. The concept of reduced crew operations, if brought in, will change the job enormously. The job will potentially look totally different in 20 years to what it is now.
Earnings are good in aviation but probably job security is much better in the rail industry. If you’re in a seniority based airline you’ll not have the best rosters for a long time. But once you’re at the top you’ll have great rosters. Again think about where you are in your life and if you can cope with that.
Aviation is not a rich kid’s game. I certainly did not come in as a rich kid. But I was fortunate enough to secure a place on a scheme with an airline in the early 2000s. Most of my contemporaries were not rich kids. But some people in the industry are ‘rich‘ and they had the good fortune of being so which meant they could enter the industry under their own steam. Good fortune will play a role in anyone’s aviation career. There is a lot of right place, right time for those who are successful. And that you cannot control.
Good luck to anyone who makes the move.

I’m sorry but if a pilot gets into the sim for their OPC I’d expect proficiency in the core skills assessment. There is a part for learning and development too yes, but also a part for demonstrating mastery of the basic skills required for recertification. Otherwise said recertification wouldn’t happen.

Even in the developmental parts of the sim repeated failure to demonstrate certain non technical skills results in competency development plans.

I’d also expect the average pilot to remain far more up to date with their relevant manuals than many drivers appear to be, that requires regular revisits to those documents to study. Whilst some may have a laissez faire attitude in that regard many operators aren’t all that accepting of that approach these days. Now I’ll give you that it would be far less necessary if standards departments and manufacturers didn’t feel the need to constantly change things, but they do, and so a need to keep updated and study are quite real. My last operator’s OPC included an extensive exam for the “ground school day” and it was often obscure parts of the FCOM/OM-A/B being tested. Pilots were failed for not having prepared.

I’m not trying to put the OP off but, maintaining the skills and knowledge to be a good pilot will take up more their time than they are used to now.

 

[Economist]

Fully agreed regarding unionisation in the aviation industry, BALPA don't appear anywhere near as strong as ASLEF and the endless supply of people with £100k of debt and an fATPL keeps conditions down. A few months back I was chatting with a widebody FO who was in the top half of seniority on fleet and seat, I got the impression he'd rather be represented by ASLEF than BALPA and that he somewhat envied the railway's rostering stability. That said, he had a few days on a tropical island coming up which I was equally envious of but I imagine it'd be much tougher with a family etc.

I'm early thirties so long-haul LHS wouldn't necessarily get me a great roster at somewhere run on a strict seniority basis like BA, I've heard of 20-year A320 FOs there who pretty much write their own rosters. I think I'd have to go into things with an open mind but I'm mindful of the fact that my comparatively late entry compared to some might limit a few options. No spouse or kids so I'm pretty much free to relocate to wherever I'd need to go, of course there's some options which wouldn't be favourable to live in, i.e. places with shocking human rights records.

As things stand, there's been a couple of referrals during my Class 1, one of which was a straight pass (it was very binary) and the other I've been recommended as fit by the specialist but it's a bit more of a grey area. Compared to my initial Class 2 the AeMC has been much less helpful than my AME was. In the meantime I'll likely put in for BA, Aer Lingus and TUI if the latter scraps the 100-hour maximum hours limit.

 

[TravelDream]

Fully agreed regarding unionisation in the aviation industry, BALPA don't appear anywhere near as strong as ASLEF and the endless supply of people with £100k of debt and an fATPL keeps conditions down. A few months back I was chatting with a widebody FO who was in the top half of seniority on fleet and seat, I got the impression he'd rather be represented by ASLEF than BALPA and that he somewhat envied the railway's rostering stability. That said, he had a few days on a tropical island coming up which I was equally envious of but I imagine it'd be much tougher with a family etc.

BA isn't anywhere near as bad as UK airlines.
At BA, pilots bid for a line which is a month's schedule. At US airlines, pilots bid for individual flights. It leads to craxy things like 60 year old first officers who refuse to upgrade as they go from the top of their seniority list picking and choosing what they fly to a pretty mid position in the captain's seniority list. Junior pilots might spend most of the month on standby which is super unpopular. At BA, some standby is built into all lines so it gets shared more fairly.

And I am sure most would agree on BALPA. It's definitely got its plus points and had its wins, but it's a pretty poor union compared to the railway ones. It's well known at certain airlines that ambitious pilots who want to get into management become reps and get on the company council for that purpose. With some, you wonder if they represent their members or the airline.

 

[43066]

With some, you wonder if they represent their members or the airline.

Don’t worry, that happens on the railway too. There are more than a few ASLEF reps like that .

 

[Terry Tibbs]

I have not operated in an airline training environment such as Desiro states above so ultimately cannot comment. My experience of sims is for the trainees to demonstrate a level of knowledge and proficiency commensurate with their experience and rank. Assessments are made across a multitude of competencies of which only one or two may be actual flying. There are minimum standards to be met however the focus is on enabling the trainee to achieve their objectives. Having said that I wouldn’t worry about any of this at this stage. Nor would I be overly concerned about rosters. These are the things to consider once you are well on the way to being qualified.
Like one of the posters above has done one of the first things is to get a Class 1. It’s much easier to retain a Class 1 if you develop certain health conditions than get one after said health condition becomes apparent. Have a think also about whether you would rather do an MPL or traditional ATPL. Some schemes will offer a choice; there are significant differences between them. If you have the right to live and work in the EU it may better to do an EASA licence rather than a UK one if you are self sponsored. I would have a Plan A, B and C to achieve your goal to get a licence. Ideally a Plan A full sponsorship is the best but as life shows us things don’t always go to plan. Most airlines will restrict repeat applications to time scales so you may find you are ‘locked out‘ of applying for a year or 18 months if you fail a sponsorship assessment. This will become more important as you get older as ideally you’ll enter aviation as young as possible.
It can be, indeed it is, daunting starting out in aviation. The thought of spending tens of thousands for a job which isn’t guaranteed is a very big decision. It does go wrong for some people and they sadly end up with a big debt and nothing to show for it. You also need to think about the cost of maintaining your licence and ratings if you decide to get qualified the self sponsored way. It’s not cheap to stay current, renew and bank hours but it maybe something you end up doing. The industry is quite cyclical and does seem to be very buoyant at the moment. How long this lasts is unknown and difficult to predict. Some people qualified on September 10th 2001 - you obviously cannot plan for these type of events. Like I said in an earlier post good fortune will play a part in how your career eventually pans out.
Just to correct a post above BA pilots no longer bid for lines of work, this ceased a few years ago. And standby is not as the poster says either.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fully agreed regarding unionisation in the aviation industry, BALPA don't appear anywhere near as strong as ASLEF

The simple explanation for this in high level terms is that UK Government fundamentally doesn‘t care if a UK airline stops trading, but effectively guarantees the GB ‘franchised’ railway will keep trading.

 

[DesiroOperator]

The simple explanation for this in high level terms is that UK Government fundamentally doesn‘t care if a UK airline stops trading, but effectively guarantees the GB ‘franchised’ railway will keep trading.

Yes and no.

Whilst government intervention plays less into industrial relations it is still quite present.

I’d argue the biggest reason is the mentality of flight crew. Perhaps even their inner political views. They’re not naturally, (in the uk at least), left leaning whereas most industries with strong unions do, at least from a workers rights point of view, have a more ‘progressive’ outlook.

In my memory BA pilots even worked as Cabin Crew to help break the BASSA strike that essentially brought an end to the legacy CC fleets at Heathrow.

There’s more of Maggie than of Marx amongst the Nigels. That and anyone willing to self fund their way to the little blue book, plus a type rating, and contributions to their first 1500 hours, is already someone fairly open to being undervalued.

Which all seems weird in many ways as aircrew can moan just as well as train crew and they are arguably a more rare commodity. They just seem to do less about it in my experience.

 

[pug1]

Yes and no.

Whilst government intervention plays less into industrial relations it is still quite present.

I’d argue the biggest reason is the mentality of flight crew. Perhaps even their inner political views. They’re not naturally, (in the uk at least), left leaning whereas most industries with strong unions do, at least from a workers rights point of view, have a more ‘progressive’ outlook.

In my memory BA pilots even worked as Cabin Crew to help break the BASSA strike that essentially brought an end to the legacy CC fleets at Heathrow.

There’s more of Maggie than of Marx amongst the Nigels. That and anyone willing to self fund their way to the little blue book, plus a type rating, and contributions to their first 1500 hours, is already someone fairly open to being undervalued.

Which all seems weird in many ways as aircrew can moan just as well as train crew and they are arguably a more rare commodity. They just seem to do less about it in my experience.

Interesting observations that I’ve made too. A bizarre example is that if Brexit, where it was clearly going to make the lives of British pilots (and engineers) tricker - and in many cases more expensive. Yet from my experience there was a groundswell of support for it amongst the industry at the time.

Perhaps it’s cos they all grew up watching Battle of Britain or Great Escape and bought into that mawkish idealistic view of Britain as an island nation standing alone against the mighty EU?

Yes they walk (and fly) amongst us. Yes you too will have to sit next to these people for over 12 hours. There are reasons they say do not talk politics on the flight deck…

 

[DesiroOperator]

Interesting observations that I’ve made too. A bizarre example is that if Brexit, where it was clearly going to make the lives of British pilots (and engineers) tricker - and in many cases more expensive. Yet from my experience there was a groundswell of support for it amongst the industry at the time.

Perhaps it’s cos they all grew up watching Battle of Britain or Great Escape and bought into that mawkish idealistic view of Britain as an island nation standing alone against the mighty EU?

Yes they walk (and fly) amongst us. Yes you too will have to sit next to these people for over 12 hours. There are reasons they say do not talk politics on the flight deck…

That was my experience at least. Not universally but quite frequently. Brexit was a bizarre thing to support given the upheaval it still causes those trying to maintain validation in both CAA and EASA lands and the added difficulty in jumping bases around the EU.

I worked at an airline with a very diverse international group of pilots. Was a minefield. I avoided politics at all costs and was shocked at some of the views people would express after sitting next to them for a few hours. And then having another few hours of awkward silence when the moderate racism they expressed wasn’t well received.

Odd place to work. But there were plenty of good ones to make up for it.