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Train Driving in Snow

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12LDA28C

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If it doesn’t affect the braking distance, why the reduced speeds? I would’ve thought the point of reducing speed would be to keep braking distance the same, unless it’s to do with the actual train’s mechanics or something?

Good question. Assume it's for perceived or actual diminished effectiveness of the brake during snow conditions although if that were the case, braking from 90mph rather 100mph would seem to make negligible difference.
 
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Grumpy Git

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I always thought that was a bizarre rule. Once the railhead is covered, how is a driver expected to know if the snow is 2 inches deep, 8 inches deep or more...

I'm not a driver, but would hazzard a guess that it is about 8" deep when the snow is level with the top of the rail?
 

12LDA28C

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I'm not a driver, but would hazzard a guess that it is about 8" deep when the snow is level with the top of the rail?

The Rule refers to depth above the railhead, not above ground/sleeper level.
 

chuff chuff

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158’s have to stop at Snow Boards in falling Snow too. Couple of them on the HML
The 158s main problem with snow is with the inboard disc and the cloud of disturbed snow coating the disc in water and causing the pads to aquaplane,this was sorted with a different pad.
 

Boilinthebag

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I imagine that driving into falling snow especially if thick can also be quite disorienting as well so no doubt extra concentration required . And on occassion if snow is heavy enough it can also obscure signals .
This rule can also apply in heavy falling snow: TW1 22 If you cannot see signals, block markers or lineside indicators soon enough to react to them during poor visibility, you must reduce the speed of your train as you consider necessary.
 

Efini92

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Fair enough. Wonder if it has anything to do with TASS? There was an occasion where several Pendolinos had outer skins broken due to ice after VT failed to introduce any speed reductions.
I’m not sure. I thought they just reverted it to PS and 10 below the maximum.
 

azOOOOOma

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I was coming home from London as a passenger yesterday. It was my first time in snow. Can anyone tell me what all the loud clicking and banging is under the train? I assumed it was just chunks of compressed snow being disturbed. Any suggestion, fellas?

Laura x
 

merry

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Is there a danger that snow blocks points mechanisms? Presumably, if the points are not fully in position, the protecting signal will show danger
That's the reason that many modern installations have point heaters, to melt ice and snow (if the heaters are working, of course). During falling snow, traditional mechanical signalling rules require regular movement of points required for operation of services, to prevent build up of snow in the blades.
 

Annetts key

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Snow affecting colour light signals.
If/how snow affects these in my experience, it depends on the type of snow and the direction of the wind. Also on the type of signal.

For main aspect signals on posts, brackets or on a gantry:

Ice cold (so called “dry”) snow doesn’t tend to stick on the lenses or build up on the hoods as long as there is some wind.

Wet snow however can, if the wind direction is ‘right’ can stick on lenses and may build up on hoods.

However, if enough light can still make it through the coating of snow, generally drivers don’t notice unless they have to stop at a signal or are passing the signal slowly.

Ground mounted signals, such as GPLs or ground mounted main aspect heads are far more likely to be affected. In part due to the snow being blown around by the trains as they move.

Is there a danger that snow blocks points mechanisms? Presumably, if the points are not fully in position, the protecting signal will show red.
If the point operating equipment is unable to detect that the switch rail is in the correct position, then no position will be indicated to the signaller and the interlocking will prevent any signal from showing a proceed aspect over the route that the points apply to, or adjacent route (point to point locking, flank protection etc.).

I would assume so, clearly less of a risk if point heaters are installed and working correctly.

That's the reason that many modern installations have point heaters, to melt ice and snow (if the heaters are working, of course). During falling snow, traditional mechanical signalling rules require regular movement of points required for operation of services, to prevent build up of snow in the blades.

Nearly all modern power operated point operating equipment has electrical heaters to reduce the likelihood of snow or ice causing problems. Note this is for the point operating equipment only.

Many points also have electric heating to heat either the chairs or both the stock rails and the switch rails. This is normally fitted at major junctions, junctions where one passenger line joins another and where the powers that be have decided it’s a requirement. Not all branch lines, loop points (including on main lines) or freight lines are fitted. And it’s uncommon for points for or in sidings to be fitted.

The electric point heaters should keep the points free of snow and ice for most weather conditions seen in Britain.

Points that are not fitted with electric heaters, if used regularly, may not experience problems. Ice is more of a problem than snow. However, if some snow gets compressed, it may turn to ice. Or if the snowfall is heavy or continuous, yes, eventually it may cause problems. Typically it builds up and turns to blocks of ice on the slide chairs (against the stock rail) and prevents the switch rail from fully fitting up to the stock rail. Then the point operating equipment won’t be able to detect that the switch rail has completed its movement (because it’s fowled). The type of snow and the wind direction are also factors. As is the type of point operating equipment and the length (maximum permitted speed) of the points (turn out). Clamp locks (and related) systems in my experience perform worse in winter weather.

Note that the modern design of the electric rail heating systems are fully automatic and switch themselves on when needed.
 

Unobrow

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I always thought that was a bizarre rule. Once the railhead is covered, how is a driver expected to know if the snow is 2 inches deep, 8 inches deep or more?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



I would assume so, clearly less of a risk if point heaters are installed and working correctly.
You don’t carry a ruler………????
 

Unobrow

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Unsurprisingly, no.
Aaahhhhh, you’ll have to use guess work then……..

There was supposed to be a laughing emoji at the end of my initial reply so people knew I wasn’t being serious or sarcastic. That didn’t turn out too well did it……..?:rolleyes::lol:
 

furnessvale

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I was once involved in an argument on line with a former conductor who was adamant that ANY snow over the rail head meant all trains had to stop, "because the driver could not see that the rails were still there". Even the editor of a famous railway magazine got involved, backing up the conductor and became quite abusive towards me.

My attempts to point out that the rule book (at the time, I don't know current rules) allowed for 8" of snow above railhead were poo-pooed. Even pointing out that snowploughs only remove down to 8" above rail, leaving the train to do the rest were ignored. Pointing out the futility of their argument, in that it would mean every inch of railway in the country would have to be cleared down to rail level BY HAND before trains could run also fell on deaf ears.

Only the intervention of a couple of S & T lads backing me up silenced the pair, who rather ungraciously backed out withour comment. A certain railway magazine editor has never spoken to me since.
 

Deepgreen

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Surely any depth above the railhead would be problematic. 8 inches is quite high
It shouldn't be, if the snow is fresh (i.e. not solifidied into ice). Steel wheels will cut through snow (and ice for that matter) with ease. Of course, 8" above rail head is rare in the UK, even in most of Scotland, and there many trains will have mini snow-ploughs attached.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I was once involved in an argument on line with a former conductor who was adamant that ANY snow over the rail head meant all trains had to stop, "because the driver could not see that the rails were still there". Even the editor of a famous railway magazine got involved, backing up the conductor and became quite abusive towards me.

My attempts to point out that the rule book (at the time, I don't know current rules) allowed for 8" of snow above railhead were poo-pooed. Even pointing out that snowploughs only remove down to 8" above rail, leaving the train to do the rest were ignored. Pointing out the futility of their argument, in that it would mean every inch of railway in the country would have to be cleared down to rail level BY HAND before trains could run also fell on deaf ears.

Only the intervention of a couple of S & T lads backing me up silenced the pair, who rather ungraciously backed out withour comment. A certain railway magazine editor has never spoken to me since.
How pathetic - by that argument trains couldn't run at night!
 
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driver9000

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Beattock, Druimuachder and Slochd Summits, both up and down directions.

The same instruction applied at Beattock Summit. The snowflake signs are still in place but the instruction has been deleted now 158s don't work over that section of the WCML.
 

matchmaker

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The same instruction applied at Beattock Summit. The snowflake signs are still in place but the instruction has been deleted now 158s don't work over that section of the WCML.
It's still in the latest (September 2024) Sectional Appendix - although there are a lot of other out of date sections still in it!
 

Rescars

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It shouldn't be, if the snow is fresh (i.e. not solifidied into ice). Steel wheels will cut through snow (and ice for that matter) with ease. Of course, 8" above rail head is rare in the UK, even in most of Scotland, and there many trains will have mini snow-ploughs attached.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


How pathetic - by that argument trains couldn't run at night!
....or through quite a few tunnels!
 

AlastairFraser

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I was once involved in an argument on line with a former conductor who was adamant that ANY snow over the rail head meant all trains had to stop, "because the driver could not see that the rails were still there". Even the editor of a famous railway magazine got involved, backing up the conductor and became quite abusive towards me.

My attempts to point out that the rule book (at the time, I don't know current rules) allowed for 8" of snow above railhead were poo-pooed. Even pointing out that snowploughs only remove down to 8" above rail, leaving the train to do the rest were ignored. Pointing out the futility of their argument, in that it would mean every inch of railway in the country would have to be cleared down to rail level BY HAND before trains could run also fell on deaf ears.

Only the intervention of a couple of S & T lads backing me up silenced the pair, who rather ungraciously backed out withour comment. A certain railway magazine editor has never spoken to me since.
You could have just taken a picture of the many times trains run in snowy conditions on the Buxton line, especially east of Whaley! :lol:
 

furnessvale

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You could have just taken a picture of the many times trains run in snowy conditions on the Buxton line, especially east of Whaley! :lol:
Indeed, but sadly these days trains are more often turned back at Hazel Grove when snow falls while the parallel A6 conitinues unaffected.
 

AlastairFraser

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Indeed, but sadly these days trains are more often turned back at Hazel Grove when snow falls while the parallel A6 conitinues unaffected.
:lol: Imagine if Northern followed the severe weather policy of High Peak Buses. I've seen them turn up in all sorts of mad situations before!
 

Meerkat

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Is it the same as driving a car in falling snow in the dark - lights up, foot down, and off into hyperspace!?
 
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