Train driving a dead end job?

[tygar2]

Were you under the impression when you got into the job that there would be more opportunists for progression then? Also, just out of curiosity, what drew you to the job in the first place? Are/were you a rail enthusiast before you got the job? Had you worked in the lower ranks before becoming a train driver or did you come in straight off the street?

I think switching to a FOC might be your best bet if your looking to break out of the monotony of your current job as I don't see anything else you can step up to, as really your at the pinnacle if you don't have the option of doing express' with your TOC.

I have worked in the rail industry from retail ticket office to the depot as a shunter then I became a driver. I had always believed that there are routes availabale to always progress for those who want it. As in my original post, what concerns me is the very specific nature of rail and the non transferrability of skills. Im strting to understand this in a way......maybe Its just that have reached the top of this game.....

Anyone with info on how commuter drivers can transfer to express? I think express lines like virgin would give me the sense of fulfilment I need as a driver.

Anyone managed to do the switch?
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tygar2 - you could say the very same thing about my job in that once you've reached Captain there's nothing else left, which is true to a certain extent, however, the way pilots usually re-energise their passion for the job is simply to go to another Operator that has a different type of aircraft or route structure. In your case, if you delve deep and understand what drew you to driving in the first place, and then realise you still have that passion then I think the answer for you is to do just that. You have a whole range of options - ECML, WCML, Eurostar etc. If however you discover that you're bored of driving full stop, then you're still young enough to change careers altogether, and don't be scared at all of doing that.

A lot depends on what you class as 'progression', whether you're talking in terms of driving something which is faster and stops less frequently, or if you mean being your Company's CEO.

Most importantly, don't be worried that you have these feelings, in essence that is exactly what drives us forward.

PS - Just thought I'd add a bit as we were typing at the same time - if what you're saying about instructor and management roles being reserved for cronies is true then that's the fault of the Company, and from what I've heard the railway industry isn't very good at accepting change so you might fight a losing battle trying to change that. Experience certainly doesn't mean ability as you say and the solution would be to move to another Company that isn't run by a Boy's club style of senior management.

Thanks Flyboy. You make a lot of sense. Maybe Im just bored and need change. Maybe my TOC is too small to allow progress. For me progress allowing opportunity to those driven enough to go all the way to CEO.

Im my TOC there are grumbles that there are a lot of middle and senior management who run rail companies but have never set foot in a train! In my companty the senior driver manager has never driven a train! How does he manage me when he does not understand my job? Why arent these opportunities offered to drivers? Thats what I expected to be the automatic progression route. Why does it seem like theres a glass ceiling of some sort?

Progress may also mean a change. Maybe its boredom.....but like I said, driver skills dont appear to be transferrable. I cannot just walk into Eurostar irregardless of my experience. Ive always fancied hst like virgin or eurostar but access to them is very limited and restrictive (HST experience required apparently) also most TOCs (mine included) take their drivers from the lower rungs (guards and depot drivers) within their own company.What chance for existing drivers on commuter routes? Go back to being a shunter if you want change?

I just feel TOCs need to focus more on people development and a more flexible approach to intecompany people transfers pushing forward the routes that allow you to be the best you can be....

 

[Aictos]

I knowv two FCC drivers last year made the jump to NXEC and are now driving HSTs and 91s instead of 313s/317s/365s.

 

[the sniper]

Anyone with info on how commuter drivers can transfer to express? I think express lines like virgin would give me the sense of fulfilment I need as a driver.

Progress may also mean a change. Maybe its boredom.....but like I said, driver skills dont appear to be transferrable. I cannot just walk into Eurostar irregardless of my experience. Ive always fancied hst like virgin or eurostar but access to them is very limited and restrictive (HST experience required apparently) also most TOCs (mine included) take their drivers from the lower rungs (guards and depot drivers) within their own company.What chance for existing drivers on commuter routes? Go back to being a shunter if you want change?

I may be missing something as a non-rail employee, but I frequently check TOC sites for jobs and there's normally at least one advertising for existing drivers. Just taking a quick look now, CrossCountry are looking for qualified drivers to be based at Birmingham or Bournemouth and London Midland are "very interested" to hear from drivers willing to work out of Northampton/Bletchley depot.

 

[Metroland]

Is Train driving a dead end job? Depends what you mean. Like the Police, nurses, teachers etc, you are pretty much confined to that line or work with possible progression to admin and management roles. Like other operating roles on the railways, a couple of nasty mistakes will land you back unemployed.

The railway industry is still quite closed off. Unlike buses, trucks, aviation and so on, you cannot yet obtain a license from a third party and that can be used as a ticket to transfer.

There are however, plenty of internal promotion opportunities in my experience, and you can make the most of it by bolstering your experience with qualifications from, for example, the institute of railway operators, for which you can take qualifications up to degree level.

http://www.railwayoperators.org/

 

[tygar2]

I knowv two FCC drivers last year made the jump to NXEC and are now driving HSTs and 91s instead of 313s/317s/365s.

Interesting....something positive. So it is possible then....thanks for that.!
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I may be missing something as a non-rail employee, but I frequently check TOC sites for jobs and there's normally at least one advertising for existing drivers. Just taking a quick look now, CrossCountry are looking for qualified drivers to be based at Birmingham or Bournemouth and London Midland are "very interested" to hear from drivers willing to work out of Northampton/Bletchley depot.

Thanks for the links. Always helpful to know what's out there. At least there are openingings out there which is why I started this thread. It was to discuss the limitations of the industry but your links at least show lateral movement is still possible!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is Train driving a dead end job? Depends what you mean. Like the Police, nurses, teachers etc, you are pretty much confined to that line or work with possible progression to admin and management roles. Like other operating roles on the railways, a couple of nasty mistakes will land you back unemployed.

The railway industry is still quite closed off. Unlike buses, trucks, aviation and so on, you cannot yet obtain a license from a third party and that can be used as a ticket to transfer.

There are however, plenty of internal promotion opportunities in my experience, and you can make the most of it by bolstering your experience with qualifications from, for example, the institute of railway operators, for which you can take qualifications up to degree level.

http://www.railwayoperators.org/

At least you acknowledge that the industry is pretty closed off. That was my main point of discussion. Dont get me wrong, rail provides so very good jobs which are relatively economically secure. I looked into the IRO courses and they seem a step in the right direction in openeing up oppotunities for progression. Until recently the upfront fee requirement was a bit restrictive for those paying for it privately.
Its a pity TOCs dont seem to actively encourage employees to better themselves as other buisness ventures do through subsidisation of fees for those interested in personal growth. I guess Im objecting against a long imbedded culture of seniority and progression being gauged via experience alone. Some want to and are able to do more and the train driving experience only adds to their understanding and expertise if they choose the management route. Some people are good at their jobs and just need variety and maybe the chance to get more normal hours if they earn it and are so inclined. The train driving grade should not be the end of the line but rather a stepping stone for those who choose a different path. The industry needs to open up a bit more. IRO may yet open doors that are closed.....we'll see!

Thanks for all the feedback. Anyone else got any input on the down side of the driver grade? This is not to trash the job....maybe moan a bit.....but then again moaning is a train driver's pastime. Its a fantastic job......I just want prospective drivers who search forums like this one to have access to both the negative and positive aspects of the job before making decisions. Hopefully input from this forum may somehow improve some condition somwhere someday!

 

[O L Leigh]

I don't know. I quite like my job and can see me happily doing it for the foreseeable future. I'm not keen to progress and don't particularly want to take on extra responsibilities.

It would be nice to move to a different company/location and get some experience of different types of driving, though. Where I work now is all one type of traction, one type of signalling system and one type of working. I don't really want to still be doing precisely the same thing in another 20 years.

O L Leigh

 

[Domeyhead]

Hi, very interesting thread. If it makes you feel any better, back in the 80s I was commuting into London from Aldershot. Like thousands of others getting up in the dark on a rainy winters morning we'd herd onto a packed platform before 7am waiting for a train consisting of ageing HAP and EPB units to appear out of the dark. THe train was already packed when it arrived and with the condensation streaming down to the windows and steam coming off everyone's coats it was too packed to even read the paper. When we got to Waterloo and headed down the Drain to our dreary and miserable jobs in the City I would pass the driver hidden in his cab and think "You lucky, lucky b******, you are going to stroll to the other end and drive right on back down to Alton"
The grass is always greener, Ty believe me!

 

[Metroland]

Incidentally it is not uncommon for people to transfer between modes of transport. Former bus and truck drivers have been known to transfer to the railways - some even keeping up skills part time. I've known of several people who transferred to aviation and vice versa.

However, like I say, if you want to become a truck/bus driver or pilot its simply a question of having the money and passing the course. Its a great shame the same option doesn't exist to became a qualified train driver - a lot of the course is classroom based rules and regulations. What with simulations and use of preserved railways, it shouldn't be beyond wit and wisdom to at least get to the level of 'qualified driver', ready to take on traction/route handling practice and qualification with various TOCs.

Likewise there should be college courses in transport (yes I know there is a few planning ones at degree level) that give a basic grounding in customer service, economics, planning so on a so forth, with specialisations for the various modes and options to gain qualifications for specific jobs - like signal technicians, station managers, guards, signallers, haulage company mangers, airport staff and so on.

There are millions of people that work in transport (over 150,000 in the rail industry alone) yet very few formal courses to allow 16 year olds to at least get a grounding and a way in, as well as older people to pick up skills and transfer - unlike the plethora of 'media' courses, for an industry that employs 1/2 the number of staff that the rail industry employs! It's a great shame, because there or so many people (especially young males) that are interested in transport.

 

[tygar2]

I don't know. I quite like my job and can see me happily doing it for the foreseeable future. I'm not keen to progress and don't particularly want to take on extra responsibilities.

It would be nice to move to a different company/location and get some experience of different types of driving, though. Where I work now is all one type of traction, one type of signalling system and one type of working. I don't really want to still be doing precisely the same thing in another 20 years.

O L Leigh

Hi

I totally agree with you because what you wrote reflects exactly how I feel. I work to similar conditions too which is what made me ask as I was thinking "is this it till I retire?" What if something happens and I cannot do my job? What if I lose my job (very easily done!)? What can I do to secure skills that will serve as a fall back postion with the rail industry? What transferrable skills can I obtain? Im my view is no proactive encouragement gain skills to protect yourself or do anything else if you are so inclined.

To illustrate my point chew on this - What options does a 40 year old driver, with 10 years experience, have if he gets a long term medical condition which prevents him from driving trains (doesnt take much)? What if a driver decides he would like to do something different in his life? Is the anything proactively in place at any TOC which would have allowed this driver to gain skills which allow him to transfer into another part of the rail industry?

The rail industry is very large but it seems the different sections are totally closed of from each other. I know its a bit extreme but wouldnt it be nice if there was a identified routes for a driver (or anyone within rail) to move to rail engineering, signalling, management, train planning if they are so inclined? Surely the driver's experience must count for something....no?

Imagine knowing that as a driver, if you are so inclined, your TOC allows you to learn about train planning while you drive and move to that sector later on if you meet the requirements and pass the tests? This could be signalling or management. Imagine knowing that if you wanted change you could be the bloke on the other end of the ca radio sitting in the signal box. Would your driving experience not be a valuable contribution towards your new job? How about just knowing that no matter what happens, I have a skill I can use elsewhere? Something to fall back on. If a driver loses or cannot do his driving job or wants a break what happens? From move from £40k/year to £6/hour in a factory because his driving skill is now worthless there was no route and opportunity for him to gain other skills to do something else? Kind of worying that.

Seems that for a driver the available route is moving to another TOC which is a bit of a shame coz I know a large number of people got into rail following their childhood dreams and are passionate enough to make meaningful and exciting contributions to the industry if given the opportunity.

This is just me thinking out loud. Hope it makes sense.
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Incidentally it is not uncommon for people to transfer between modes of transport. Former bus and truck drivers have been known to transfer to the railways - some even keeping up skills part time. I've known of several people who transferred to aviation and vice versa.

However, like I say, if you want to become a truck/bus driver or pilot its simply a question of having the money and passing the course. Its a great shame the same option doesn't exist to became a qualified train driver - a lot of the course is classroom based rules and regulations. What with simulations and use of preserved railways, it shouldn't be beyond wit and wisdom to at least get to the level of 'qualified driver', ready to take on traction/route handling practice and qualification with various TOCs.

Likewise there should be college courses in transport (yes I know there is a few planning ones at degree level) that give a basic grounding in customer service, economics, planning so on a so forth, with specialisations for the various modes and options to gain qualifications for specific jobs - like signal technicians, station managers, guards, signallers, haulage company mangers, airport staff and so on.

There are millions of people that work in transport (over 150,000 in the rail industry alone) yet very few formal courses to allow 16 year olds to at least get a grounding and a way in, as well as older people to pick up skills and transfer - unlike the plethora of 'media' courses, for an industry that employs 1/2 the number of staff that the rail industry employs! It's a great shame, because there or so many people (especially young males) that are interested in transport.

Hmm.... this discussion is getting very stimulating! I totally agree with what you are saying Metroland especially regarding the lack of formal courses. The industry is 24 hrs and very shift based so therefore should set up personal development schemes that allow those within to progress and allow those outside to come in. This could be things like formal distance learning qualifications. The IRO is a step in the right direction but that is management focussed, what if I just want a go at being a signaller? Can I get a qualification relevent to that whilst in my current job?

I work in transport but have no formal inter industry accepted transportation qualification to show prove this. The fact that I am a qualified train driver means absolutely nothing elsewhere within the rail industry. The should be more courses and freedom within the sector.

At the moment it is too closed off for those inside and those trying to get in. That cannot be a good thing for the industry as a whole.
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Hi, very interesting thread. If it makes you feel any better, back in the 80s I was commuting into London from Aldershot. Like thousands of others getting up in the dark on a rainy winters morning we'd herd onto a packed platform before 7am waiting for a train consisting of ageing HAP and EPB units to appear out of the dark. THe train was already packed when it arrived and with the condensation streaming down to the windows and steam coming off everyone's coats it was too packed to even read the paper. When we got to Waterloo and headed down the Drain to our dreary and miserable jobs in the City I would pass the driver hidden in his cab and think "You lucky, lucky b******, you are going to stroll to the other end and drive right on back down to Alton"
The grass is always greener, Ty believe me!

Commuters are funny like that! I think they all secretly hate drivers in the mornings. Where were you when I woke up at 3am? :roll: Kinda odd how they forget who's sitting in the cab when they stagger,totally ****ed, onto the last train home on a Friday night with the weekend to look forward to! Who's the lucky b****** now?

 

[Metroland]

Imagine knowing that as a driver, if you are so inclined, your TOC allows you to learn about train planning while you drive and move to that sector later on if you meet the requirements and pass the tests? This could be signalling or management. Imagine knowing that if you wanted change you could be the bloke on the other end of the ca radio sitting in the signal box. Would your driving experience not be a valuable contribution towards your new job? How about just knowing that no matter what happens, I have a skill I can use elsewhere? Something to fall back on. If a driver loses or cannot do his driving job or wants a break what happens? From move from £40k/year to £6/hour in a factory because his driving skill is now worthless there was no route and opportunity for him to gain other skills to do something else? Kind of worying that.

Indeed, I left the rail industry because I did not want to end up 'high and dry' because I couldn't transfer to another post. I saw a lot of things go on, where perfectly competent people were suddenly denied all chances of promotion because of a small mistake, or became embroiled in things because of mistakes of others.

I don't think outsiders realise just how easy to it to get involved in things, or how simple lapses in concentration can reduce your standard of living massively or heaven forbid kill someone. In the end, despite signalling 1 million trains (as well as many other things) and stopping 2 major crashes, one of which known about by everyone on this forum (and no I'm not going to discuss it, I never have only with close friends) I decided enough was enough and left to take on a career change.

Whereas it might be every little boys dream to do some of these jobs: pilots, signallers, drivers of various kinds, you can keep it, I don't want the responsibility! I have perfect admiration for everyone in those jobs, most of which are highly underrated and unappreciated inside and outside these industries.

This is of course the major reason the railways are very unionised, to protect oneself from being cast out. So often senior management don't take the blame, and it's the little man that has carry the can. Possibly one factor in the railways sometimes appalling industrial relations.

 

[tygar2]

Indeed, I left the rail industry because I did not want to end up 'high and dry' because I couldn't transfer to another post. I saw a lot of things go on, where perfectly competent people were suddenly denied all chances of promotion because of a small mistake, or became embroiled in things because of mistakes of others.

I don't think outsiders realise just how easy to it to get involved in things, or how simple lapses in concentration can reduce your standard of living massively or heaven forbid kill someone. In the end, despite signalling 1 million trains (as well as many other things) and stopping 2 major crashes, one of which known about by everyone on this forum (and no I'm not going to discuss it, I never have only with close friends) I decided enough was enough and left to take on a career change.

Whereas it might be every little boys dream to do some of these jobs: pilots, signallers, drivers of various kinds, you can keep it, I don't want the responsibility! I have perfect admiration for everyone in those jobs, most of which are highly underrated and unappreciated inside and outside these industries.

This is of course the major reason the railways are very unionised, to protect oneself from being cast out. So often senior management don't take the blame, and it's the little man that has carry the can. Possibly one factor in the railways sometimes appalling industrial relations.

Very interesting..... You seem to have had the same thoughts Im having now. If you dont mind telling me, Im curious about your career change. From your last post Im assumming you were a signaller.

How long did you do your rail job? What did you go on to do after you left? Did your rail experience count for anything or did you have to start from scratch?

If you'd rather not say here please PM me!

You're right about the fragile nature of some of these jobs and the lack of appreciation from people. I also feel the "us vs them" relationship between management and other staff in industry is also responsible for the lack of options and failure to have formal qualifications within the industry. Its not right and it traps people.

Its not very nice feeling unappreciated, unmotivated and knowing thats there is nothing you can do to protect your livelihood in a very unforgiving industry. A MISTAKE could leave you unemployed, with no skills whatsover.

No wonder some unons are millitant however I feel they could better serve their members by pushing for the opening up of career progeression and qualification routes that not only further protect but educate, skill and motivate and empower them.

That way upper management may one day be filled with people who understand what its like further down the chain resulting in better conditions for all and motiavtion for people to be the best they can be! win - win!

Just my 2p's worth!

 

[Metroland]

Very interesting..... You seem to have had the same thoughts Im having now. If you dont mind telling me, Im curious about your career change. From your last post Im assumming you were a signaller.

Yep, and a couple of other posts

How long did you do your rail job? What did you go on to do after you left? Did your rail experience count for anything or did you have to start from scratch?

10 years, and it counts for very little, unless I went into transport planning or other control centre work. I had to start from scratch in an another industry and glad I did, I much prefer looking from the outside.

You're right about the fragile nature of some of these jobs and the lack of appreciation from people. I also feel the "us vs them" relationship between management and other staff in industry is also responsible for the lack of options and failure to have formal qualifications within the industry. Its not right and it traps people.

Its not very nice feeling unappreciated, unmotivated and knowing thats there is nothing you can do to protect your livelihood in a very unforgiving industry. A MISTAKE could leave you unemployed, with no skills whatsover.

It's the biggest challenge the rail industry has, while they have come a long way from BR days, the fact remain most people in the industry are circulated around, its not seen as an attractive industry because its so closed shop. (Government, unions and management all to blame). It's often seen as low tech, which is completely wrong.

In my opinion there are several things the industry needs to do over the next 10 years:

- Professionalise staff, do away with them and us, and become more pro-active. Outsiders will be surprised to learn I used to learn more though railway magazines than inside. Communication is dreadful.
- Reduce red tape and costs.
- Become less inward looking.
- Get a hell of a lot better at public and staff relations. Get a lot better at promoting the industry. If staff and enthusiasts 'get stick', much can be laid at the door of dreadful PR.
- Become much more innovative. There is very little R&D that goes on, much is bought off the shelf at huge prices.
- Make staff feel much more appreciated, instead of de constructive punitive measures, become much more constructive.
- Qualifications to move between posts and different sectors of transport, not heresay between cliques of managers.

No wonder some unons are millitant however I feel they could better serve their members by pushing for the opening up of career progeression and qualification routes that not only further protect but educate, skill and motivate and empower them.

That way upper management may one day be filled with people who understand what its like further down the chain resulting in better conditions for all and motiavtion for people to be the best they can be! win - win!

Just my 2p's worth!

I love railways, but I'm afraid I find it hard to recommend enthusiasts get involved too much, you are much better off with preserved railways or computer games. If you are keen you will be shocked by the:

- Don't care attitude', from some (but not all staff). Makes it very hard going for those that do care.
- Empire building and red tape.
- Slow pace at which EVERYTHING moves in terms of decision making. The constant one hand doesn't know what the other is doing and battles between companies in industry.
- Inability to communicate anything between the various posts and lack of hands on management. The managers who are admired most get stuck in, like Chris Garnet ex-GNER helping staff and passengers at King's cross when things used to go wrong, not hiding and paper pushing.
- Dreadful wastes of money and budget 'filling'.
- Lack of ability to understand risk management, especially from middle management.

The railway has some extremely good staff and managers, but as I always say, the whole lot needs an enema.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Normally, career progession goes hand in hand with more money. not so on the railway. Management are often on less money than the staff they manage!

 

[tygar2]

Normally, career progession goes hand in hand with more money. not so on the railway. Management are often on less money than the staff they manage!

Well that's no way to run a railway is it? Talk about a disincentive. Other sectors do it the other way around for a reason. No wonder its a bit of a mess.

 

[Domeyhead]

Commuters are funny like that! I think they all secretly hate drivers in the mornings. Where were you when I woke up at 3am? :roll: Kinda odd how they forget who's sitting in the cab when they stagger,totally ****ed, onto the last train home on a Friday night with the weekend to look forward to! Who's the lucky b****** now?

No not hate Tygar - why would commuters hate drivers? It's partly envy because they always have a seat! I take your point about the hours though.
One thing that I have wondered about driving as a job is loneliness. Boredom has been mentioned and of course you can't have distractions in the cab but there must be whole shifts where you have barely said a word to anyone and that can be hard for any outgoing soul. Perhaps that's what's at the root of your current dissatisfaction?

 

[O L Leigh]

Personally I don't see the need for accruing new skills at this stage, especially as I currently have no interest in changing to any other position on the railway. Getting some skills in train planning, dispatch or in the office would just be wasted time and effort.

We've had a few drivers who have had to step down from the footplate as a consequence of ill-health or incidents. In most cases a job has been found elsewhere in the TOC for them according to their abilities. Indeed, quite a few of our dispatchers are former drivers together with some of our controllers and office staff.

However, I wouldn't be panicking about not having transferrable skills. Quite the opposite in fact. All you need to do is consider how to properly frame the requirements and skills of your current job to suit any other job you might be interested in. Granted you're not going to be able to go straight into bus/lorry driving for example, but you certainly have a lot of the skills and experience they would be looking for. Reliability, responsibility, decision-making, following rules and regulations, experience of shift work, concentration and so on.

O L Leigh

 

[Flyboy]

At the moment it is too closed off for those inside and those trying to get in. That cannot be a good thing for the industry as a whole.

That's for sure! However, the industry seems to be happy keeping it closed off.

It's often been quoted to me that a lot of the problems stem from heavy Union influence, so I decided to contact ASLEF and asked to be referred to one of the Regional/National bods, he/she could then answer some of the questions I had and offer an opinion on why the Unions were often blamed for making it so damn hard to get into the industry.

The reply I received was "Please refer to our website, thank you for contacting ASLEF"

I was appalled. I wonder what my reaction will be when/if I get into the industry and they want me to join?

 

[313103]

Dear Tygar,

I am going to be blunt (especially as i am someone from a lower rung (your words not mine).
Rather then whinge and moan about the lack of opportunities within the rail industry, i would consider that you leave the industry altogether.

The reason why i have come to that conclusion is that you started as a lower rung (once again your words and not mine). It appears that you have not tried for any Management positions.

We have a director in my company who started off as a lower rung (your words not mine) on the barriers as a ticket collector at a Network South East Station in the 1980s. Now all he answers to is the Managing Director, and you cant get any higher then that now can you.

Perhaps the reason why you havent tried this is because of the responsibility of the role (im only guessing).

 

[Flyboy]

313103 - I am going to be blunt, (your words, not mine :roll if you can't add anything constructive to this topic then don't add anything at all.

My words, not yours.

 

[O L Leigh]

Flyboy,

Sorry you feel that way, but 313103 isn't wrong. There are quite a lot of folk who started out in some fairly humble operational posts and have grasped the ladder and are now quite some way up. It's just a case of looking for the opportunities as and when they arise.

At our place we have drivers who have become instructor drivers before becoming what is known as "panel DM's". This then gives them a foot in the door should they then wish to become permanent driver managers. From there the possibilities are virtually endless. Granted the opportunities don't come up very often and there may only be a need for one panel DM from a depot of 100 drivers which may never come to anything. However, the chances are there for those who really want to seize on them. All you need is the desire and drive to do it.

Then again, you could just take the "sour grapes" approach and never take the chance to leave the footplate.

O L Leigh

 

[Flyboy]

OL - I was simply a little annoyed by the if-you-don't-like-it-then-leave attitude; tygar2's comments have at times appeared a little Devil's Advocate...ish, but that's perfectly OK with me, in the main he seems to be a genuine guy who's possibly at a crossroads in his life and is looking for constructive input from his peers, I don't think there's any sour grapes involved at all. Most people don't have the experience of being at such a point in their lives, but ambitious and driven people who are unsure of their calling often do.

Personally I'm enjoying the discussion.

 

[O L Leigh]

Fair enough.

I just felt your criticism of 313103 was a little unwarranted. It's hard to tell when you're chatting online just what experience a person has of any given matter, but the gentleman in question has been on the railways for some considerable amount of time and knows his onions. Perhaps his post was a bit stark in it's meaning but, as I said, he isn't wrong.

To my mind, 313103 was being no less constructive than anyone else. Tygar2 may indeed be at a crossroads in his career and be driven enough to consider what options are available to him, and 313103 was simply highlighting other directions in which he could take his career (on which I merely elaborated). However, the directions indicated do require a certain amount of courage and drive. The ladder is there to be climbed, but you won't get much higher than driver manager unless you are willing to change your outlook from that of a driver to a manager and are prepared to grasp the nettle of responsibility.

It all adds to the discussion.

O L Leigh

 

[ChrisTheRef]

313103 added constructive topics to the debate

People who say otherwise know they're fighting a losing battle

 

[313103]

313103 - I am going to be blunt, (your words, not mine :roll if you can't add anything constructive to this topic then don't add anything at all.

My words, not yours.

Thanks for thinking i aint got anything constructive to say, so therefore after this message, i will comment no further!
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Flyboy,

Sorry you feel that way, but 313103 isn't wrong. There are quite a lot of folk who started out in some fairly humble operational posts and have grasped the ladder and are now quite some way up. It's just a case of looking for the opportunities as and when they arise.

At our place we have drivers who have become instructor drivers before becoming what is known as "panel DM's". This then gives them a foot in the door should they then wish to become permanent driver managers. From there the possibilities are virtually endless. Granted the opportunities don't come up very often and there may only be a need for one panel DM from a depot of 100 drivers which may never come to anything. However, the chances are there for those who really want to seize on them. All you need is the desire and drive to do it.

Then again, you could just take the "sour grapes" approach and never take the chance to leave the footplate.

O L Leigh

Thank you O L Leigh for your support and understanding as to where i was coming from.
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313103 added constructive topics to the debate

People who say otherwise know they're fighting a losing battle

Also thank you Christhe ref.

 

[O L Leigh]

Most welcome, sir.

O L Leigh

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Ditto

 

[dauntless]

I have to agree If your not enjoying the job best to leave..... When you hearts not in the correct place could lead to mistakes.

What company do you work for? what depot?


Best wishes

 

[Metroland]

That's for sure! However, the industry seems to be happy keeping it closed off.

It's often been quoted to me that a lot of the problems stem from heavy Union influence, so I decided to contact ASLEF and asked to be referred to one of the Regional/National bods, he/she could then answer some of the questions I had and offer an opinion on why the Unions were often blamed for making it so damn hard to get into the industry.

The reply I received was "Please refer to our website, thank you for contacting ASLEF"

I was appalled. I wonder what my reaction will be when/if I get into the industry and they want me to join?

It's certainly operated like a cartel, and I suspect the unions are quiet happy with that as they can push up wage demands - simple demand and supply. Virtually no other industry works like this (bar maybe a couple of public services like the Police or armed forces - neither of which are allowed to strike).

There's no practical reason why far more training couldn't be carried out by third parties, and like most industries the railway called on ready (or near ready) trained certified/licensed staff. This is how modern industry works. Unfortunately inside the industry, all to often people who don't rock the boat are looked on far more favourably, or those willing to preserve the status quo and most promotion is taken on personal recommendation from managers, often based on whether the face fits, rather than qualifications. It suits the lifers, whole like secure employment, but not those wanting to exist in a flexible labour market. There are advantages for employees such as they don't have to pay for courses. There are courses than can be taken, but they are piecemeal, usually engineering based stuff like PICOP, lookout and so on - these tend to be paid by companies and of no use to the general public. As far as I'm aware, there is no route into the majority of positions unless applying directly to employers and getting them to train you (in which case they like to hold onto you) - unless its transferable skills like engineering (even then you have to take conversion courses). The only exception would be the railway engineering course at Sheffield. No outside courses for any operational role, and dedicated role exist to my knowledge, although I'm willing to be corrected. Even the DFT franchising process stipulates you must have a transport based company, how on earth you start an open access company god only knows. Obviously for roads, to start a bus company, you just need buses and some licensed staff, some for haulage, anyway can get training and set up in a matter of months. Airlines is more complex, but its not impossible if you can raise the money.

 

[Flyboy]

Let me clarify my comment above a little further. If I were a Driver or Depot Manager I would never dream of saying right off the bat "If you don't like it then leave." In my view that's an all too often used phrase that doesn't help anyone and it actually damages employee-employer relationships. In that position, and being responsible for the safety, performance and welfare of those under my control, I would as a matter of course explore several other avenues with the individual, and only after such measures had been exhausted without success would I recommend leaving.

tygar2's options are many and he should be advised accordingly, none of us here know the guy personally and we should not be too hasty to judge his position and tell him to leave the railway industry altogether. That is why I found 313103's comment didn't add anything constructive to the discussion, but of course that's my opinion and like all good management types I'm not right ALL of the time. On the other hand, if the railway industry is largely unsympathetic to its employees and the negative attitude to which I refer is commonplace, then I stand corrected.

 

[TDK]

I knowv two FCC drivers last year made the jump to NXEC and are now driving HSTs and 91s instead of 313s/317s/365s.

I started on 455's, 456's, 319's and slam doors,moved to 158's, 150's,175's, 153's and now drive 67's. If it is worrying you really need to relocate, as for Traction Inspectors and DI's nothing to do whether you face fits, by that comment you made I wouldn't see you suitable for the post anyway and I have interviewed drivers for DI posts, the assessment that is needed and the interviews make sure it's not whose face fits.