Train drivers overpaid?

[Javelin_55]

I am neither type of driver, but even I know it's a whole different kettle of fish.
As well as the differences pointed out already, it's worth mentioning the mental awareness differences.

I'm sure most people are familiar with the process of driving a road vehicle - it's reactive. You see somewhere you need to stop, you stop. You see a traffic light turn red, you stop.

In contrast, bringing a fully laden train going 125mph to a stand at a station, or through a very low speed restriction requires an immense amount of forward planning. Braking for a station 2-3 miles before you can see it, plus driving to speeds and signals requires constant attention to your location, speed, signal aspects, stopping pattern, train length, and vigilance for potential wrong routing. Not everyone can do that at the level required for the job.

 

[E27007]

the question should not be "are train drivers overpaid" but, why are workers underpaid?

 

[43066]

We are well paid, but relative to the job role.

Reasonably paid only for what’s involved, I’d suggest, especially in London.

It’s not our fault, nor our problem, that other people get paid a lot less/fail to stand up for themselves etc.

Most people complaining about our earnings slot neatly into three categories:

A. Earn less and are bitter;
B. Wouldn’t be prepared to do the shifts;
C. Wouldn’t be able to do the job anyway (or have applied for it and been knocked back). This last category includes many railway staff*, sadly.

Haters gonna h8…

*as a wise railway manager of mine once said, only three types of people work on the railway: People who want to be drivers; drivers; and failed drivers.

 

[yorkie]

the question should not be "are train drivers overpaid" but, why are workers underpaid?

No; that's a bogus argument. If everyone was paid more, the result would be (even more) inflation.

It's a simple fact that train drivers are going to be paid far more than the average salary; if you increase others' wages towards the salary of train drivers, train drivers salaries would simply go up accordingly.

...Not everyone can do that at the level required for the job.

Indeed; salaries are based on a combination of factors, such as the proportion of the workforce who is suitable/able to do the job, how much training is involved, how much responsibility is involved, and so on...

 

[Teddyward]

I’ll let you know on Friday

 

[43066]

No; that's a bogus argument. If everyone was paid more, the result would be (even more) inflation.

I fear you’ve bought into the Truss government narrative. “No rise for you people due to inflation”, while cutting tax rates for those on £150k+.

Now there’s a bogus argument, if ever I heard one (and I say that as a long-standing Tory voter).

It's a simple fact that train drivers are going to be paid far more than the average salary; if you increase others' wages towards the salary of train drivers, train drivers salaries would simply go up accordingly.

Every. Last. Penny richly deserved for what the job entails. I’ve done jobs that paid more for less effort.

I wouldn’t change it (for now).

 

[yorkie]

I fear you’ve bought into the Truss government narrative. “No rise for you people due to inflation”, while cutting tax rates for those on £150k+.

Now there’s a bogus argument, if ever I heard one (and I say that as a long-standing Tory voter).

OK let's say everyone was paid £55k+. What do you think would happen to prices? Would you be happy to remain at the same salary as at present, or would you want a corresponding increase?

 

[43066]

OK let's say everyone was paid £55k+. What do you think would happen to prices? Would you be happy to remain at the same salary as at present, or would you want a corresponding increase?

If the average salary was £55k I’d naturally assume I’d earn commensurately more than that, given the job I do.

What exactly do you think is happening to prices now, despite real terms earnings growth slumping across the board ?

(Look up cost push versus demand pull inflation)

 

[yorkie]

If the average salary was £55k I’d naturally assume I’d earn commensurately more than that, given the job I do.

Exactly!

What exactly do you think is happening to prices now, despite real terms earnings slumping across the board ?

(Look up cost push versus demand pull inflation)

Of course we have high levels of inflation right now, but if you increased the average salary to that of a train driver's salary it wouldn't mean we could afford a lot more stuff; things would cost even more. You can't solve inflation by increasing inflation.

The point here is that train drivers get a good salary, for various reasons, and that isn't going to change; the idea that everyone else should be paid more to bring everyone up to that same salary is pure fantasy and deeply flawed.

 

[43066]

The point here is that train drivers get a good salary, for various reasons, and that isn't going to change; the idea that everyone else should be paid more to bring everyone up to that same salary is pure fantasy and deeply flawed.

I agree and I’ve never suggested everyone should be paid the same as I get paid.

You also don’t cure rampant inflation by borrowing in order to cut taxes… and you don’t score points by pretending you’re somehow triggering growth by doing the same. Not a conservative approach according to my view of what conservative values mean to me. In fact, it’s a complete betrayal.

The results are there for all to see. She isn’t just a lame duck, she’s a bloody dead duck, and she needs to swiftly exit state left.

Of course we have high levels of inflation right now, but if you increased the average salary to that of a train driver's salary it wouldn't mean we could afford a lot more stuff; things would cost even more. You can't solve inflation by increasing inflation.

Absolutely.

I expect to earn an above average salary, just as it should be. In fact a multiple of the average salary if you include overtime.

I’m worth every penny .

 

[wilbers]

The results are there for all to see. She isn’t just a lame duck, she’s a bloody dead duck, and she needs to swiftly exit state left.

For a moment this afternoon I did wonder if she had decided on the exit option when a backbencher asked Penny Mordaunt if Liz Truss had gone to the palace and in the reply was unable to say that she hadn't.

 

[yorkie]

There is no way that the role of train driver is not going to be a well paid job, paid at considerably above the national average, at least in the foreseeable future.

In contrast, the role of bus driver isn't ever going to come close. Whether people think that's fair or not doesn't come into it; it's down to market forces, the level of training required, the concentration and skills required for the job.

I agree and I’ve never suggested everyone should be paid the same as I get paid.

I know; it was a question posed by @E27007

You also don’t cure rampant inflation by borrowing in order to cut taxes… and you don’t score points by pretending you’re somehow triggering growth by doing the same. Not a conservative approach according to my view of what conservative values mean to me. In fact, it’s a complete betrayal.

The results are there for all to see. She isn’t just a lame duck, she’s a bloody dead duck, and she needs to swiftly exit state left.

This is a UK Railway category thread, so I am not going to get into that.

 

[43066]

Bedtime!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2022 ==

For a moment this afternoon I did wonder if she had decided on the exit option when a backbencher asked Penny Mordaunt if Liz Truss had gone to the palace and in the reply was unable to say that she hadn't.

She does need to resign, doesn’t she?!
Surely she realises how vomit inducing she now is, to most people?!

 

[387star]

The job can be awfully fatiguing and there's some shift swings that your body just can't adapt to. Not many are cut out for that assault.

Not to mention there's a lot about the job that's painfully boring. At my depot it's one route now and painful night work shunting units around which takes far longer than it should due to an awful depot layout and another TOC taking priority.

Muggles haven't a clue how demanding the job is. It's common to have nightmares of incidents on a regular basis.

 

[bramling]

Reasonably paid only for what’s involved, I’d suggest, especially in London.

It’s not our fault, nor our problem, that other people get paid a lot less/fail to stand up for themselves etc.

Most people complaining about our earnings slot neatly into three categories:

A. Earn less and are bitter;
B. Wouldn’t be prepared to do the shifts;
C. Wouldn’t be able to do the job anyway (or have applied for it and been knocked back). This last category includes many railway staff*, sadly.

Haters gonna h8…

*as a wise railway manager of mine once said, only three types of people work on the railway: People who want to be drivers; drivers; and failed drivers.

The latter isn’t *quite* true, signalling and control is something of a dark horse as well for certain people. As an aside, I’ve always thought NR signallers are significantly underpaid, especially those working in the busy centres.

 

[Vespa]

It may well end up being a moot point in the future when eventually GoA 4 automated progresses up to GoA 5 standard rendering drivers uneccessary.

 

[E27007]

Reasonably paid only for what’s involved, I’d suggest, especially in London.

It’s not our fault, nor our problem, that other people get paid a lot less/fail to stand up for themselves etc.

Most people complaining about our earnings slot neatly into three categories:

A. Earn less and are bitter;
B. Wouldn’t be prepared to do the shifts;
C. Wouldn’t be able to do the job anyway (or have applied for it and been knocked back). This last category includes many railway staff*, sadly.

Haters gonna h8…

*as a wise railway manager of mine once said, only three types of people work on the railway: People who want to be drivers; drivers; and failed drivers.

So a Train Driver is overpaid?
The Driver lives in London and drives London commuter and suburban routes, the Driver must live within 40 minutes of unpaid travel time to the booking-on point or Depot (TOC rules).
A small Studio Flat inside the 40 minutes travel to work time radius of Depot / Sign on point costs £300k to buy, £300 k is a multiple of 5 or 6 times the salary of the Driver.
Is the Driver overpaid or not?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2022 ==

Indeed; salaries are based on a combination of factors, such as the proportion of the workforce who is suitable/able to do the job, how much training is involved, how much responsibility is involved, and so on...

You have not included Salaries/ Wages as an essential factor reflecting the strong or weak bargaining power of the employee. Pay has a strong element in employee bargaining power. Why else did Thatcher seek to destroy the Unions? A Victorian Textile Mill owner in Lancashire boasted, he could sack the entire workforce, the Mill would still operate as normal the next day, such was the weakness of the bargaining power of the mill workers. Train Drivers stop work: nothing runs, the TOC is hemorrhaging money, the TOC capitulate and pay the Drivers. If pay and skills and contribution to our Society were directly correlated, a Nurse would earn far more, an Estate Agent far less.,

 

[iSquared]

I wouldn’t even say we’re “well paid”, more “paid a salary which is representative of our vast training and responsibility”.

We are well paid, but relative to the job role.

You wouldn’t say you’re well paid, then you say you’re well paid

 

[yorkie]

So a Train Driver is overpaid?
The Driver lives in London and drives London commuter and suburban routes, the Driver must live within 40 minutes of unpaid travel time to the booking-on point or Depot (TOC rules).
A small Studio Flat inside the 40 minutes travel to work time radius of Depot / Sign on point costs £300k to buy, £300 k is a multiple of 5 or 6 times the salary of the Driver.
Is the Driver overpaid or not?

Define 'overpaid'?

Has anyone said that, or you just coming out with it now?

Also there is a broad range of salary for the role; it's not one homogenous role with one fixed salary.

You have not included ...

It wasn't an exhaustive list; I said "and so on".

. If pay and skills and contribution to our Society were directly correlated, a Nurse would earn far more, an Estate Agent far less.,

There are other factors; you will never get a direct correlation between these two (subjective) factors.

 

[Ken X]

I am with Stigy on this.

I wouldn’t even say we’re “well paid”, more “paid a salary which is representative of our vast training and responsibility”.

We are well paid, but relative to the job role.

My background was in Aviation rather than Railways but the analogy is similar. If all is going well the job is "well paid". If, however, the day is going to hell on a handcart then the large amount of training starts to pay for itself and the responsibility is huge. As a pilot once said "I am in receipt of a very good salary on a good day but, you do not want to be on an aircraft where I am earning every penny of that salary." I, for one, am much happier knowing the person at the pointy end has trained for many scenarios I hope I never see and that training has value.

 

[Stigy]

OK let's say everyone was paid £55k+. What do you think would happen to prices? Would you be happy to remain at the same salary as at present, or would you want a corresponding increase?

The cost of living would naturally increase, of course. Not everyone should be on £55k +, that would be ridiculous. I mean, no disrespect to retail staff, but the skillset, training and responsibility for stacking shelves in Tesco isn’t exactly comparable to driving a train.

However, everybody (unless you’re on footballer wages and money is literally no object), should get a pay rise in line with inflation. The argument is often put forward about “when inflation drops”, but even then, prices don’t suddenly decrease, they just remain statically high.

All the time companies are making millions in profit and paying CEOs six figure salaries, they can afford to give staff a pay rise.

 

[brad465]

I would say that the supposed ease of train driving and the perception of being overpaid are products of a media divide and rule culture. Those critical of train drivers also seem to think automation has advanced enough that they're redundant, not realising that light rail and heavy rail are very different beasts, plus the costs to upgrade the whole network and replace rolling stock to be compatible could well make HS2 look like loose change.

 

[Vespa]

S

I would say that the supposed ease of train driving and the perception of being overpaid are products of a media divide and rule culture. Those critical of train drivers also seem to think automation has advanced enough that they're redundant, not realising that light rail and heavy rail are very different beasts, plus the costs to upgrade the whole network and replace rolling stock to be compatible could well make HS2 look like loose change.

Sorry to soak your bonfire, automation is inevitable, it's just a matter of time, the attraction of reducing the wage bill is too tempting.

 

[Stigy]

S

Sorry to soak your bonfire, automation is inevitable, it's just a matter of time, the attraction of reducing the wage bill is too tempting.

Its inevitable, but not for decades yet. Anyone honestly thinks otherwise has absolutely no idea what’s involved in it. The mainline railway isn’t a light metro system, it consists of thousands of square miles of open track, with high line speeds, 40 year old trains and often Victorian infrastructure.

It would be cheaper to give every staff member an RPI pay rise every year until they retire, too…

 

[ComUtoR]

It may well end up being a moot point in the future when eventually GoA 4 automated progresses up to GoA 5 standard rendering drivers uneccessary.

What is GoA 5 ? Level 4 is already unattended.

 

[Belmont Circle]

One important aspect which should be reflected in pay, is what impact a job has on the company if that role was removed.
Would a company be unable to provide the service or product?
Also, the length of time of the training.
More training required should mean more pay.
What also needs to be remembered is that employers have agreed the pay awarded in the past - it hasn’t been stolen by employees!

 

[baz962]

I am neither type of driver, but even I know it's a whole different kettle of fish.
As well as the differences pointed out already, it's worth mentioning the mental awareness differences.

I'm sure most people are familiar with the process of driving a road vehicle - it's reactive. You see somewhere you need to stop, you stop. You see a traffic light turn red, you stop.

In contrast, bringing a fully laden train going 125mph to a stand at a station, or through a very low speed restriction requires an immense amount of forward planning. Braking for a station 2-3 miles before you can see it, plus driving to speeds and signals requires constant attention to your location, speed, signal aspects, stopping pattern, train length, and vigilance for potential wrong routing. Not everyone can do that at the level required for the job.

Spot on post. I have taken to looking at my brake points and times as I stop. At one particular station I brake at a signal or thereabouts and it has a mile post marker there. With a 50% brake, it takes a quarter of a mile to lose 15mph from 110mph. The other week at said station I put the brakes in on a wet day and they literally said nope. Nothing happened at first and they eventually bit .I stopped on my board without so much of a shudder and the passengers were clueless as to the train having an initial strop. Nearly 300 tonnes of flying metal that at first refused to slow down. Worth every penny and then some.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry to soak your bonfire, automation is inevitable, it's just a matter of time, the attraction of reducing the wage bill is too tempting.

Not anytime soon; even then, you need someone in case things go wrong (see the DLR; they have staff who can step in to drive at any moment, and the National Rail network is vastly more complex and varies than that!)

@brad465 made good points in his post.

 

[Horizon22]

S

Sorry to soak your bonfire, automation is inevitable, it's just a matter of time, the attraction of reducing the wage bill is too tempting.

It might be "inevitable" (and even then I'm doubtful) but a matter of time could easily be 50, 75, 100 years. There's wanting to do something and weighing up the cost-benefit of doing so which will be ££billions probably.

 

[Stigy]

Spot on post. I have taken to looking at my brake points and times as I stop. At one particular station I brake at a signal or thereabouts and it has a mile post marker there. With a 50% brake, it takes a quarter of a mile to lose 15mph from 110mph. The other week at said station I put the brakes in on a wet day and they literally said nope. Nothing happened at first and they eventually bit .I stopped on my board without so much of a shudder and the passengers were clueless as to the train having an initial strop. Nearly 300 tonnes of flying metal that at first refused to slow down. Worth every penny and then some.

Absolutely.

So, things such as approaching a diverging junction on flashing signals where there’s nothing to intervene if you forget to slow down sufficiently. The general public think trains “drive themselves” when in reality, it’s far from it. Yes there’s mitigation in place, but the human element still goes way above and beyond.

It all goes to prove that actually, we’re not overpaid. Or even well paid. No diver will whinge about their salary, Because it’s the higher end of the scale, but it’s not unwarranted by any stretch of the imagination.

Even before working on the railway, and having no idea about the operations of it, I’d never assume a driver simply “pushes a button”. It staggers my that supposedly intelligent people seriously believe this.