Train drivers forced back to work

[O L Leigh]

Justify to me it is morally right drivers to suddenly decide they are all having Sundays off, then I might start to listen. It doesn't take a genius to work out its an attempt to grab as much as possible, certainly nothing to do with safety, or wanting to 'be with their families'.

Why bother? You wouldn't listen anyway.

O L Leigh

 

[Metroland]

...and this is an example of what I've just been talking about. It is not illegal to decline overtime.

Yep, but it IS illegal for everyone to do so, because it then becomes illegal industrial action (it's the intent that counts!) when similar arrangements have been in place across the whole industry for many grades since at least the 1950s. This is what you don't seem to understand. You also fail to understand it is morally wrong to affect passengers in this way and are quite happy, among others, to display a collective arrogance to people that pay your wages!

 

[Ferret]

Metroland, I agree that a Sunday service is a requirement in modern day society - where we differ is how that can be brought about. You seem to favour bullying which never works, I'd favour a negotiated settlement which may cost the fatcats a few quid.

The fact is, people don't want to work Sundays but are prepared to for what they see as adequate remuneration. Unfortunately normal rate of pay won't cut it - that's the reality.

 

[Metroland]

Nowhere have I said I favour bullying, I do favour responsibility and modern flexible working conditions. Drivers have had pay rise over pay rise over the years, to such a level they are now paid more than most people, even graduate level jobs. I nether buy pleading poverty (I said all along it was about grabbing more money, not safety or wanting to be with families!) or the right to hold passengers to ransom! And you are not costing fat cats a few quid, you are costing tax payers and fare payers a few quid! I find your greed and arrogance breathtaking.

 

[Ferret]

My greed? I'm not an EMT driver and don't stand to gain anything from the dispute therefore. Whether EMT drivers are driven by greed or not is not for me to say, but I suspect they are looking for a fair Sunday wage which isn't unreasonable.

The fact of the matter is that train drivers deserve a high wage for the safety critical nature of the job they do, and the unsocial hours they do. You'd want to be well paid for getting up at 0200 for an 0312 book on!!!

My argument with the fatcats is they take obscene taxpayer funded salaries and bonuses that they don't deserve. This very issue we're debating is a prime example of management failure and yet they are rewarded for it, and far more handsomely than the drivers you are demonstrably so jealous of and who actually provide the service 'at the coalface'. How on earth can you justify ending up with this ridiculous situation when EMT themselves are contractually obliged to provide a Sunday service. It's poor management, nothing else. The money earmarked for unnecessary bonueses and excessive salaries for incompetent directors should be used to solve the issue in negotiations with ASLEF. Then the Sunday service that you and indeed I would like to see would be reality.

 

[Metroland]

Seems like the railway needs an enema to me, that includes the fat cats. The words 'system', 'milking', and 'the', spring to mind. Some of you lot are like MPs on wheels!

You know what I want? Value for money and an expanded railway network, but there is fat chance of getting that with these sorts of attitudes, probably a very reduced network!

 

[turbo mick]

on fgw, sundays are not part of the working been like that since 1996 ,when the railways went private some drivers i know never work sundays or restdays we get £25 hr for working we have 12 sundays in a roster of 24 weeks
to be honest management are babies they have never been able to deal with negotiations they demand this and that and make things worse like going to the high court .

 

[90019]

.....

 

[gordonthemoron]

you can justify a pay rise as neutral if overtime is reduced

 

[mumrar]

How can you justify getting a pay rise at this time, when pretty much everyone else is having their pay cut, and many people are losing their jobs?
Surely it would be more fair if they were to rise and fall at a similar rate to the majority of jobs in this country? ie, be falling just now as that is the case for almost everyone?

So because other industries find it necessary to make staff redundant or reduce their wages, we all should? So let's make 10% of drivers redundant and reduce the others salaries to show solidarity. The fact is companies are doing this because they deem it absolutely necessary. They wouldn't want to see people on the streets for fun, and if the time arrives the railway will have to do the same, but not out of a sense of duty to others.

I think some of the people demanding this free work should tell us what their jobs are so we can make adequate comparisons (I'm not an EMT employee either). Lets see most workers start at 2:30am, lets see them work ANY of the 52 Saturday and Sundays they are guaranteed off EVERY YEAR. Lets see them watch friends and family get drunk on New Years, but they can't celebrate because they start 3 hours into the new year. Lets see them work a bank holiday for flat rate and no leave days in leui. The list could go on

If I'm ill unless it's an emergency I have to wait for an appointment, or God forbid I fall ill on a weekend. If my tooth hurts I'll be lucky to find anyone to charge me a fortune to fix it. If my car breaks down I have to wait till they can see it, and then wait for parts and the work to be done. One of my lenses recently has failed under warranty. Three weeks later I had to chase any information on what they were doing with MY £475 lens despite them having my phone number. I have no idea when the post will arrive through my front door, and some days it has been sent up to 5 days previously. If people want to complain about service and value for money take a look at the above examples and think about your own job and your own free time.

If a company is prepared to rely on the goodwill of staff to volunteer to provide services they are comitted to, surely they need to repay the goodwill in whatever way they have not that has caused the drivers to take this stance. I don't know what has got them wound up, but I'm not going to judge the situation without the facts. But I think a lot of people (fortunate enough at this turbulent time) to have jobs need to take a look at them and themselves and ask just what they'r do out of goodwill. Look at my example, I've worked on the railway just short of 12 years, so that means there have been about 600 Sundays that my company has relied on the voluntary staff to provide their services. Regardless which individuals have turned up or not, that is a large commitment by the workforce and has been done without very much disruption. To then turn on these staff with whatever EMT did to annoy after they have been doing this for their company as a collective stinks. Terms and Conditions are about the grades as a whole, and is the grades as a whole that have kept the Sunday service going, and the grade as a whole EMT will try to be impinging on, so if the grade as a whole takes action because it's upset what is the problem?

 

[Mintona]

"Pretty much everyone else is having their pay cut"? Not in my experience. Despite the media driven "economic crisis" I don't know anyone, on the railways or not, who is having their pay cut. I know plenty who are still getting a payrise.

I believe that this EMT dispute is over harmonization, having spoken to an EMT Derby driver the other day.

EDIT: Posted at same time mumrar!

 

[Geezertronic]

Not that I am bragging or anything, but I am miles better off now than I was this time last year. Just proves that not every industry is cutting back, mine certainly isn't and it is a bit blinkered to suggest so

 

[Max]

I'm not sure many industries are making pure pay cuts, perhaps bonuses are being cut but that's a different matter. However, in some sectors pay is certainly being frozen. I work part time in the retail sector for a national clothes chain, and our pay is being frozen for this financial year due to the fact that RPI inflation is at -1.2%, and CPI is at 2.3%, which gives an average of about 0.5%, a considerable drop from this time last year. The rail industry is probably in a worse position though. Growth has fallen considerably and most of the TOCs are feeling the pinch. A wage freeze could be the only way for companies like National Express and Stagecoach to stop themselves going over the brink. Otherwise, a pay rise may result in job cuts - surely not what these drivers want? At least they will have an enhanced level of job security.

Regarding industrial action and the law, we've studied it in a fair bit of detail this year, and Metroland is correct. Since EMT seemed to have proved that this was an organised walkout, the high court can take action against the union forcing them to encourage drivers back to work. Obviously, if the union make little effort to do this, EMT will have an ace card when it comes to negotiating wages and general conditions.

 

[Mystic Force]

I would just like to point out that railway employees are not public sector workers but private company workers they are not taking tax payers money some of their employers receive money for a contracted service. We are customers of a private buisness privitisation happened for good or ill and we have to accept that this is one of the effects of that

 

[delt1c]

Metroland
Either you are a class 1 wind up merchant , or you refuse to accept debate.
You say it becomes illegal if everyone refuses to work overtime on a Sunday, are you calling EMT drivers CRIMINALS, please answer YES or NO.
I never believed in time travel but it certainly appears that you are from the Victorian age.
Trade unions have battled long and hard to get the ordinary working person some decent rights but you wish to remove all these hard fought rights and bring back victorian values.
Why not reintroduce children climbing up chimneys, maybe if you were one of the EMT drivers (or any companies driver) you might think twice before posting .
I have been a fully paid up union member all my working life and proud of it, yes sometimes union demands seem excesive but then again so do the demands of managment, with the union negotiation a settlement is usually met somewhere in the middle.
But reading your threads the staff should tip their caps to managment and thank them for employing ing them and being able to feed their families from their sallaries, although you indicate that they wont see the said famillys due to working .
Instead of posting such drivel and trying to belittle the railway staff who provide us on this site with so much information , why dont you become a drivr with EMT , work every day of to provide the shareholders with a profit, and increase your salary by being a non union member therby saving your subscription.

 

[Metroland]

Yes, this thread appears 'confrontational' and I am quite prepared to take any stick. Though, I've re-read what was said, and it's pretty mild on the whole, no worse than you would read in the comments sections of newspaper websites. That doesn't mean I have a grudge against railway staff, quite the opposite. Though I note those responding are almost all staff.

No, EMT drivers are not criminals, but their actions are unlawful, because its a deliberate attempt to cause industrial damage to their employer. It damages the image of the railway and confidence of passengers in difficult economic times.

I am not Victorian, nor have a Victorian outlook. Fully balloted strike action as a very last resort is sometimes acceptable, depending on the cause, illegal walk outs are in my view something out the 1970s, an era than nearly had this county on its knees. I believe EMT drivers are behaving insensitively.

Yes I would take a job as an EMT driver, and I can find 10 others that would too.

I think all other points have been made, so there is no point in repeating them.

 

[Tomnick]

The suggestion, made more than once so far, that I'm struggling to understand, is that by not making themselves available to work Sundays (as they're entitled to do), the drivers are acting unlawfully. If one driver chooses not to work, that's OK, but if they all choose not to work, that's illegal? I'd suggest that the only way that anyone could be acting unlawfully in this situation would be if they were actively encouraging all drivers not to work Sundays for the purposes of taking industrial action - even if it were true, that's different to simply not working Sundays because it's nice weather.

 

[GB]

Yes I would take a job as an EMT driver, and I can find 10 others that would too.
.

Say you managed to land a drivers job...would you happily sit back and let managment walk all over you, you colleagues and your T&Cs?

Would you happily sit back and watch your T&Cs (T&Cs that staff have fort tooth and nail for) errode away right infront of you with nothing in return?

After several years/months of being shafted, would you still happily come in on your rest day (often your only rest day for some time) and work for flat rate?

Or would you think enough is enough and do just what it states in your contract?

This sort of action by drivers, beit offical or unofficial is a last resort. But if the majority of drivers at EMT have concluded this is the only way to get what ever message accross to managment, then things obviously need looking at from the perspective of managment.

ANY company that relies on the goodwill of staff constantly to either reach, or maintain a level of service they have advertised is quite frankly on very shakey ground, and if they keep P***ing off staff (in one way or the other) then its only going to be a matter of time before staff bite back.

Metroland, what exactly is your employment?

 

[delt1c]

so by your own admition Metroland you have classed all EMT drivers who are not working Sundays as Criminals, that includes drivers who never work Sundays, are you qualified in employmemt law?
Would be interested in the views of EMT staff in view of your postings.

 

[Metroland]

Being a criminal and breaking the law is not the same thing.

To address TomNicks point, the reason why it is illegal is they collectively organised to take Sundays off in order to cause disruption therefore cause a dispute with the company without going through the correct procedures and local arrangements.

On GBs point, I'm self employed, I tend to work 7 days a week, was working till 2am last night, have no copper bottom pension and I only earn what I do, there is no sick or holiday pay.

 

[ukrob]

so by your own admition Metroland you have classed all EMT drivers who are not working Sundays as Criminals, that includes drivers who never work Sundays, are you qualified in employmemt law?
Would be interested in the views of EMT staff in view of your postings.

Vast difference between unlawful and being a criminal. As an example, bank charges may be found to be unlawful. Does that make every bank employee in the country a criminal? Maybe an extreme example, but I hope you can see my point

 

[Tomnick]

To address TomNicks point, the reason why it is illegal is they collectively organised to take Sundays off in order to cause disruption therefore cause a dispute with the company without going through the correct procedures and local arrangements.

Only if it can be proved that they (or, more likely, ASLEF - who deny that this is the case and, as required by the court injunction, have written to members to say that this is not the case!) collectively organised it to cause disruption, rather than individually getting fed up of EMT's treatment and each deciding to withdraw the 'goodwill' Sunday working.

 

[Metroland]

It's effectively the same thing, because they are breaking local arrangements which apply to all railway staff for Sunday working. This is why the high court ruled it was illegal and their union has instructed them to make themselves available. It's a really silly practice that Sunday is not part of the working week, but the situation has persisted for some time and has generally worked until now. I expect other TOC employees are watching developments.

 

[Ferret]

Metroland, the arrangements at EMT do not apply to all railway employees at all - mine are almost the same as what happens at EMT, but not quite. Sundays are overtime, and we can ask for our booked Sundays off if we don't want to work them but if there is no cover then we are obliged to work it. Seems to work quite well to be honest!

 

[Metroland]

Well yes, there is slight differences, but as you describe is how it normally works.

 

[Tomnick]

That's not how it is at EMT though! The local arrangement (and the contracted situation) is that drivers can make themselves unavailable for any of their booked Sundays - in which case, the turn will be covered by someone else who wants the overtime. So the booked drivers aren't breaking any local arrangement by making themselves unavailable, and the other drivers are equally doing nothing wrong in turning down the overtime that will undoubtably be offered to them.

If the contract said, as Ferret's surely does, that drivers were obliged to work Sundays if no cover could be found, then it'd be a different story. Incidentally, that's different to bringing it inside the working week, right? If so, I'd have thought that'd be a cheaper option, if it could be negotiated - as it wouldn't require any additional drivers to be taken on to maintain the 'average' number of weekly hours. Or have I completely misunderstood the situation?

 

[Ferret]

Metroland, you seem to be confused! Each TOC has their own set of T&Cs where Sundays are concerned. EMT have theirs, we have ours and other TOCs will have something entirely different. There is no 'normal' as such....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Tomnick, my Sundays are indeed still outside the working week, and we're rostered to work about 3 in 8 of them. It's very rare that you don't get a Sunday off when you ask for it and to me the system works well. Maybe something that EMT could negotiate towards?

 

[Tomnick]

Well the EMT system seems to work pretty well too, normally - judging by the reliability of the Sunday service. On that basis, I'm not sure that it's as 'silly' as it sounds, if it works until they do something to upset the drivers, or there's some other bizarre reason for no-one working a particular Sunday - but is it worth the extra money to EMT (I'm sure the drivers won't give away their guaranteed Sunday for nothing!) just to account for those odd few?

 

[Ferret]

Well, my argument is this - ASLEF bring that suggestion to the table as a commitment to providing a Sunday service in return for EMT making a reasonable pay offer, including an enhanced rate for Sundays. Far better than chasing off to the High Court......

 

[Tomnick]

Seems sensible, but isn't that just an added complication to the ongoing pay/conditions negotiation?