Train drivers forced back to work

[Max]

I think what some people are missing here is understanding on the part of both parties. Obviously East Midlands Trains understand that staff want time off to be with their families at weekends. However, drivers are also being quite unreasonable in my opinion, and not considering the needs of their company - would you want to purposely send your employer down the pan? I think not! Yes, drivers do have a right to Sundays off, but this was clearly a conspiracy amongst drivers to send out a message to or even damage the company. Such actions also damage the industry as a whole, which is not acceptable. I also believe there are procedures for companies to take action against unions for unofficial industrial action, which was clearly the case here.

 

[Ferret]

Guys cany you stop all the bickering and can some of the moderators keep an eye on this thread ?

Anthony, a forum is a place for the exchange of views - that's all that is happening, it certainly isn't bickering! One or two of us are just highlighting the fact that 'Metroland' is taking a very naive and simplistic view of how the railway runs. We all agree that Sundays require a train service, it's just that EMT don't want to negotiate with ASLEF to bring that about!

 

[whoosh]

It's a concerted attempt to grab more money from the fare and tax payer.

How much did fares go up in January? How much did fares go up in May?
Who's business is performing above target (making more money than expected)? Who's increasing the dividend to their shareholders?

Drivers aren't the ones who are greedy.

 

[anthony263]

Maybe London Underground should take some legal action against the RMT union since they seemed to be so bored they are going on strike next week.

I would be glad to have a job at the moment rather than striking and demanding a 5% pay rise which i belive should be awarded to the staff just not at the current time where TFL'S finances are being squeeshed

 

[Max]

Guys cany you stop all the bickering and can some of the moderators keep an eye on this thread ?

Wouldn't the forum be a boring place if there were no disagreements? Don't backseat moderate in future please.

 

[anthony263]

Anthony, a forum is a place for the exchange of views - that's all that is happening, it certainly isn't bickering! One or two of us are just highlighting the fact that 'Metroland' is taking a very naive and simplistic view of how the railway runs. We all agree that Sundays require a train service, it's just that EMT don't want to negotiate with ASLEF to bring that about!

Ferret i do agree with what you have said above and may metroland is being a bit naive but i am juts warning people that this thread seems to be getting a little bit our of control.

as for these rail companies making a forturne it is angering me a lot as a passenger.

personally national express should stick to running coaches ( which they seem to do a good job)

I would also like to apoligise if i have offended or angered anybody

 

[Hampshire Unit]

Metroland Can I just get this right? So what you are saying is if someone decides not to work OVERTIME then they should be sacked? I would be interested to know the type of shifts and hours that you work yourself?
Would you allow your employer to force you into doing overtime when maybe you have a family commitment or something of that nature?
Just because a person has a Family life away from there work does not give any indication that they are any less committed to there work then the next person.
As for the comparison with Mp’s and duck ponds please remember that when someone does not work overtime that person does not get paid for the overtime!
Yes I do agree that there should be a reliable service even on Sundays so an agreement needs to be reached and hopefully soon.
SWT (Stagecoach) have Sunday’s as part of the working week but clearly the pay conditions will need to reflect that.

 

[veoliaboy]

I am new to this forum having had it reconmended to me by my freind Anthony. Anthony you are right about the RMT union, Thanks for alerting me to the possible strike next week and i will be changing my plans to visit london from tuesday and so will becoming up with you by coach on monday instead although i am going off shopping.

With regards to staff working on sundays for the price most train drivers get i think they should be greatful, a lot of people work on sundays for far less pay although i do agree that staff witth familys and espcially if they have young children should be allowed to have sundays off.

 

[delt1c]

Drivers are contracted to work their conditioned hours, anything else is voluntary. No one can be forced to work overtime.
I find it disgusting that people think that they should be forced to work their days of.
You work to live,
You dont live to work.

 

[First class]

As a railwayman myself I think it is crystal clear that EMT have obviously tried to do something we are not aware of- and as a response- drivers have decided to flex their muscles- which under their contracts they have every right to.

My contract tells me Sunday is paid as being outside the working week, at basic rate. I don't think many rail staff get even time and a quarter for overtime, I don't even get any extra for working nights.

It might not be ideal for the passenger that drivers legally don't have to work a Sunday- but unfortunately that is the fault of the employer- the TOC. They shouldn't have designed a contract that lets people do something which they don't want them to do!

If EMT want to restructure them- it means careful consideration and deliberation with unions, or getting more P/T drivers.

If my employer was sending me down the pan- wouldn't you return the favour?

EMT will ultimately end up making 3 out of 4 rostered Sundays compulsory, payable at an enhanced rate.

 

[westcoaster]

Drivers are contracted to work their conditioned hours, anything else is voluntary. No one can be forced to work overtime.
I find it disgusting that people think that they should be forced to work their days of.
You work to live,
You dont live to work.

could not have put it better my self. well done that man.

 

[GB]

With regards to staff working on sundays for the price most train drivers get i think they should be greatful, a lot of people work on sundays for far less pay although i do agree that staff witth familys and espcially if they have young children should be allowed to have sundays off.

sorry, but unless you know first hand what a driver gets paid (specificly), what his T&Cs are, what he actually has to go through to get the job and what he needs to go though to keep the job, you have no right it saying they should be "greatful". Its a damn hard job to get into and the pay reflects the competitive nature the industry is and the work that goes into keeping and maintaining the job.

People bitch and moan about drivers pay and that they would be happy to do their job for a fraction of the pay, but I bet once your in and you see your T&Cs erroding right infront of you with no compensation (yet are still required to make "goodwill" gestures) you would be taken the same steps as these guys are.

And to veoliaboy, why should family men have the day of and not childless couples or single people?

 

[anthony263]

I dont think he ment it like that i think what veolia boy was on about is that all staff should be able to have 1 day off per week if they want but those with families are more likely to want this and a lot of those drivers who are single might want to work.

as for working sundays even if its voluntary maybe drivers hould get overtime and maybe the train oeprators should look at changing the contract for all new employees

 

[Tom B]

Also, remember that a contract need not be in writing - it can be modified by "custom & practice". For example, if you work 5 days per week, but for the past x years you have worked overtime on Sundays almost every week (bar holidays, etc), it's going to be *very* difficult for you to turn around and say "I'm not going to work on Sundays anymore".

 

[Tomnick]

How, though, would that situation work if a number of drivers worked regular Sundays, whilst other drivers had never worked a Sunday in their working life? Surely it can't be considered the "custom and practice" for Sundays to be worked, if only a limited number of drivers do so?

 

[EM2]

As a comparison, think about the retail trade. There was a time, not that long ago, when shops were not allowed to open on Sundays. And everyone got Sunday off. Then, when the shops did open on Sundays, staff had to either be paid overtime, or have Sunday working negotiated into their contracts.

This is the same with the train drivers. Many train drivers would have been on the job so long, that when they joined the Sunday service was minimal, and so they knew they might be asked to work overtime one Sunday in eight (for example). Now passengers want a seven-day railway, and they are being asked to work more and more overtime.

This dispute is NOT about Sunday working, it's about another pay & conditions related issue. The drivers are NOT striking, they are working to rule. In other words, they are not carrying out duties over and above their contracts.

 

[GB]

As a comparison, think about the retail trade. There was a time, not that long ago, when shops were not allowed to open on Sundays. And everyone got Sunday off. Then, when the shops did open on Sundays, staff had to either be paid overtime, or have Sunday working negotiated into their contracts.

This is the same with the train drivers. Many train drivers would have been on the job so long, that when they joined the Sunday service was minimal, and so they knew they might be asked to work overtime one Sunday in eight (for example). Now passengers want a seven-day railway, and they are being asked to work more and more overtime.

This dispute is NOT about Sunday working, it's about another pay & conditions related issue. The drivers are NOT striking, they are working to rule. In other words, they are not carrying out duties over and above their contracts.

Im glad there are at least a few people on here that have a bit of sense and know what they are talking about.

 

[delt1c]

back in the 70's and 80's I worked for the then LT. Due to circumstances I had to work regular overtime, often doing a 7 day week and missed a large part of my daughters growing years.
I no longer have to work such long hours and work a 5 day week (no longer in transport) . Question is I had to do overtime to provide for my family not to satisfy managment, if I were still in the transport industry does that mean I should now still be doing a 7 day week to satisfy managment.
No way I only get one life and I (and others) are entitled to enjoy it.
We are meant to progress in life not regress, yet some of the postings seem to want to take us back to Victorian working practices.
Those who say staff should be forced to do overtime should try working 70 plus hours a week covering unsocial hours and shifts, it is a lot more exhausting than Monday to Friday 9 - 5.
I have been there and done it.
As for anti union bashing , remember unions have fought long and hard to secure workers decent conditions.

 

[Metroland]

that 'Metroland' is taking a very naive and simplistic view of how the railway runs. !

Really, what little you know. Never assume anything.

 

[Ferret]

Really, what little you know. Never assume anything.

I'm not assuming at all - I'm merely commenting on your postings in this thread! From where I'm standing, you don't seem to understand the way industrial relations work on the railway at all - taking the simplistic view that drivers should go over and above their contractual obligations because they work in a service industry and because many others would give anything to be a train driver really are quite absurd comments to be making.

Btw, are you incinuating that you are actually a railway employee???

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Has anyone here read the injunction?
Do we know which Judge or in which Court the Judgement was given?
I couldn't find it on BAILII

I for one would be very interested to read what evidence it was based on.
Thanks

- - - - - - - after a little more digging - - - - -
I still haven't found the Judgement, but on railchat (in the drivers section, there is a thread that EMT was proposing an alternative to the requested pay rise which inluded many terms, including : the reduction of the working week from 35 hours to 34 hours ; treating Sundays as any other working day ; and a host of other terms.
One (unpopular) view is that by moving Sunday working from "voluntary" or "rostered" status (depending on point of view) into the fixed contractural week can actually Increase a driver's contracted salary and THERFORE INCREASE the driver's final salary linked pension!

 

[TDK]

Really, what little you know. Never assume anything.

I am a driver and Sundays are in my working week so I work Sundays. All this is 100% down to EMT who should have forseen this and devised a plan to get drivers working Sundays as in their working week, however, you talk to most drivers and they don't want Sundays in their working week. If EMT persist in these bullying tactics I am afraid that will not have any trains running let alone Sundays as I for one would vote to strike if I was being bullied.

This is called Bar-B-Q Sundays in the trade and the EMT drivers have every right not to work their volutary Sundays however if a Driver has worked all his or her booked Sundays and extras on a regular basis management could argue that this is against the drivers normal working but can't really act on it officially. The only way EMT are going to solve this is negociate with the drivers on the root cause which is the pay dispute and if this is successful the drivers will once again work Sundays. For you to say "metroland" they should be dismissed and the drivers owe it to the public to work Sundays you are incorrect. It is down to EMT to provide the service and it is EMT management who have failed the public and not the drivers. If drivers are on a 4 day average week and Sundays were added the drivers would get a lot more free days over an annual period.I quite like working with Sundays in my working week as weekdays off are not so busy as everyone else is at work and I get more free days.

 

[Metroland]

I'm not assuming at all - I'm merely commenting on your postings in this thread! From where I'm standing, you don't seem to understand the way industrial relations work on the railway at all - taking the simplistic view that drivers should go over and above their contractual obligations because they work in a service industry and because many others would give anything to be a train driver really are quite absurd comments to be making.

I also happen to think its quite absurd after 50 years or more to suddenly decide everyone wants a day off on Sunday, when everyone knows almost all grades, in many companies, have exactly the same contract. It's about time it was changed, and by the looks of it, its been offered to be changed, with just a 34 hour week!

Whether its in the contract or not, I still think it's unreasonable as the reason Sunday has been kept out of the working week is in order to claim double pay rates offered by many companies. Some people on the railways live for 'Sundays', there is never a problem covering them, yes I do know that from personal experience. Its a cynical attempt to grab more money and up yours to the public. When trains are timetabled on Sundays, drivers and EMT do owe it to passengers, whatever their current contract says. There are other ways to settle disputes. There are good reasons for strikes, but I didn't think this is one of them, especially in the current climate where most people would sell their granny for those sorts of T&Cs, especially with the backdrop of very high fares and subsidy.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm alarmed at some of the things I've read in this thread, but mostly by Metroland's failure to link the action to the cause. Clearly he has only been reading EMT's version of events.

It's a concerted attempt to grab more money from the fare and tax payer. There are hundreds queuing to do these jobs, these people should ship out if they are not happy.

This so isn't about grabbing money. The money that these drivers will have lost by not working a Sunday will not be made up by any increase in pay they may be awarded.

From the rumblings I've been hearing the issue that drivers have with the TOC revolve around their conditions. While there are some on the railways who are happy enough to sell their conditions for a fat pay rise many understand that the conditions are what make the job bearable, so any threat to erode these conditions should really be dealt with. Most often this is done by sitting around the table and talking it through. If any form of action ends up being taken this is usually a sign of intransigence on the part of the TOC.

Now perhaps the drivers did act unilaterally in this matter, but they did so legally. In addition, staff never like taking action and will only do so if they feel there are no other means available to them. Unlike RMT's relations with LUL, ASLEF has been very conciliatory with the TOC's and tried wherever possible to work with them rather than against them. Unfortunately the TOC's only ever seem to want to play hard-ball and for us to pay for our own pay increases through the gradual erosion of our conditions. This has meant that industrial relations have taken a nose-dive at more than one TOC. Most of the drivers I talk to would be happy with a sensible pay increase each year (by which they mean that their earnings keep pace with the increases in the costs of food, fuel, mortgages, etc) and to be left alone. Sure there are always mavericks who will never be happy until they're paid as much as Eurostar drivers, but these guys are living in "cloud cuckoo land" and are very much a minority If the TOC's could only see this and gave the majority what they wanted, they would have a generally happy workforce and much better industrial relations.

However, as the main thrust of this thread seems to be about Sunday working I should perhaps deal with some of the red herrings that have popped up in the past few pages.

Generally drivers are not unhappy about working on a Sunday, especially if it's outside the working week. It's a good opportunity to earn a little extra. The choice over whether you work one or not is down to each driver's individual conscience. It isn't about whether or not drivers have families or anything else. Some just don't want to work on a Sunday and will make themselves unavailable while others want the extras and will hoover up whatever is left. In this way all the jobs end up covered and the full timetable can be run. We know what the requirements of the job are and are generally happy with them.

O L Leigh

 

[Metroland]

This so isn't about grabbing money.

Yes it is. When everyone else is taking pay cuts, and reducing prices, the railways are putting fares up, and giving themselves huge bonuses and pay rises and expecting our taxes for it too.

Having spoke to the RMT on this very matter years ago, everyone knows that if an individual member of staff decided he/she was not going to work Sunday they would be disciplined. The reason why is it is 'custom and practice' to work Sundays. The only reason EMT drivers are getting away with it, is because they are doing it together because they know with the closed market the railway is, they cannot all be sacked, if they did it individually they would be sacked.

 

[O L Leigh]

Yes it is. When everyone else is taking pay cuts, and reducing prices, the railways are putting fares up, and giving themselves huge bonuses and pay rises and expecting our taxes for it too.

Please don't quote me out of context and then incorrectly attribute what I've said. You're moaning about drivers not working overtime (surely the complete apotheosis of money-grabbing) and then backing it up by citing fare rises, bonuses and pay rises. The two are not linked.

Having spoke to the RMT on this very matter years ago, everyone knows that if an individual member of staff decided he/she was not going to work Sunday they would be disciplined. The reason why is it is 'custom and practice' to work Sundays. The only reason EMT drivers are getting away with it, is because they are doing it together because they know with the closed market the railway is, they cannot all be sacked, if they did it individually they would be sacked.

If that's what the RMT have told you then it's no wonder you are struggling to understand the concept of Sundays being outside the working week. As has been painstakingly pointed out to you already several times in this thread, this is not how it works.

O L Leigh

 

[ungreat]

Also, remember that a contract need not be in writing - it can be modified by "custom & practice". For example, if you work 5 days per week, but for the past x years you have worked overtime on Sundays almost every week (bar holidays, etc), it's going to be *very* difficult for you to turn around and say "I'm not going to work on Sundays anymore".

Rubbish.I did exactly that with no comeback.Contracts cannot be altered like that,unless you work in an industry with poor unions and **** conditions

 

[Metroland]

Please don't quote me out of context and then incorrectly attribute what I've said. You're moaning about drivers not working overtime (surely the complete apotheosis of money-grabbing) and then backing it up by citing fare rises, bonuses and pay rises. The two are not linked.

Yes they are, they won't work Sundays because they are trying to get extra pay and conditions. It's nothing to do with 'having a day off' or 'much needed rest' its an attempt to get as much as possible for when Sundays is eventually brought into the working week. There is no problem covering Sundays I suspect, and should there be, they shouldn't have taken the job!

If that's what the RMT have told you then it's no wonder you are struggling to understand the concept of Sundays being outside the working week. As has been painstakingly pointed out to you already several times in this thread, this is not how it works.

O L Leigh

I don't struggle to understand it at all, I know exactly what's going on. It is concerted unofficial action to obtain extra T&Cs and pay. The proof is tell your manager you won't work Sundays!

 

[ungreat]

Yes it is. When everyone else is taking pay cuts, and reducing prices, the railways are putting fares up, and giving themselves huge bonuses and pay rises and expecting our taxes for it too.

Having spoke to the RMT on this very matter years ago, everyone knows that if an individual member of staff decided he/she was not going to work Sunday they would be disciplined. The reason why is it is 'custom and practice' to work Sundays. The only reason EMT drivers are getting away with it, is because they are doing it together because they know with the closed market the railway is, they cannot all be sacked, if they did it individually they would be sacked.

I have read all of this thread.You ARE anti driver,you are most probably a manager within the railways,or some petty public official.If sunday is outside of the working week you cannot be sacked.End of.Finish.

You are also apparently jealous of our T&C..tough.

And...you don't half spout some utter and total bollocks.

 

[Metroland]

Rubbish.I did exactly that with no comeback.Contracts cannot be altered like that,unless you work in an industry with poor unions and **** conditions

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/employment/contracts_of_employment.htm

Really? I'll say again, tell your manager you won't work Sunday, you'll be disciplined. If it wasn't, Sundays wouldn't be rostered at all. These are implied contractual conditions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have read all of this thread.You ARE anti driver,you are most probably a manager within the railways,or some petty public official.If sunday is outside of the working week you cannot be sacked.End of.Finish.

You are also apparently jealous of our T&C..tough.

And...you don't half spout some utter and total bollocks.

Oh do grow up man. I'm sick of paying high fares though like the majority of people. I'm not anti driver, my grandfather was a driver, one of my relatives was one of the first ever steam train drivers. I suspect my opinions about this matter are the same opinions of the majority of the general public, you might not want to hear it but as a public servant you really ought to.