"Train doors may close 30 seconds before departure" - what a nonsense

[Oswyntail]

...
Surely that doesnt solve anything?

Well, I think it might.
At present the actual end time for getting on a train timed to depart at xx:05 may be anything from xx:02 onwards; this is determined, apparently, not by a rigid timing but by the train staff. The result is that customers are uncertain whether they have enough time to catch the train in question. Uncertainty is, IMHO, a bad thing which leaves a sour taste in the mouth when things do not go according to plan.
If the same train was shown in the public timetable as "departing" (or perhaps even rename it "doors close") at xx:02, then there is no uncertainty in the mind of the customer - that is when they have to be on board by. There is then ample time for the full departure procedure to be carried out before actual departure at xx:05. As far as I can see, the only down side to this is the apparent lengthening of the time between departure and arrival, which seems to be an issue. I would venture that TOCs are effectively lengthening that period anyway (with the up to 3 minutes procedure), while still maintaining that their timetable is "faster".

 

[The Planner]

I presume this is for the initial departure of the train ?? as the dwells for most trains vary from ½ to 2 minutes at intermediate stops, the example you have given potentially has the doors closed before it arrives !

 

[snail]

If the same train was shown in the public timetable as "departing" (or perhaps even rename it "doors close") at xx:02, then there is no uncertainty in the mind of the customer - that is when they have to be on board by.

Cue lots of passengers wanting to know why the trains always leave late.

 

[blacknight]

So what is so difficult about having the published time of departure as being the time at which the procedure starts? This gives total clarity to those who need it, has no confusing elements ("up to three minutes before departure") and has no undesirable side effects. To clarify: current system - passenger does not know when doors will close, and is expected to build in slack to cover a procedure he knows nothing about, the timing of which is variable ("up to"); suggestion - timetables are cast in such a way that the "departure" time is when the procedure starts and doors are closed, customer knows exactly where he stands, as do staff.
Once again, we have posters form (I believe) within the railway industry saying "It's that way because the rules say so" and no one being able to explain why the rules have been written like that, or why they cannot be altered. Instead we have had the all too predictable scorn poured on the customers.

As I posted earlier some are hard of learning some are unable to comply with a simple directive, if your train departs at 00.xx this means to move to leave or exit the station at said time in timetable.
In order for a safe dispatch it is desirable that the the doors are closed prior to train departs i.e move as this process can take a minute dispatch as to start before the booked departure time.
Most seem to understand this rest need to look in the mirror thats glass thing on wall not the newspaper to see where fault is.

 

[Oswyntail]

As I posted earlier some are hard of learning some are unable to comply with a simple directive, if your train departs at 00.xx this means to move to leave or exit the station at said time in timetable.
In order for a safe dispatch it is desirable that the the doors are closed prior to train departs i.e move as this process can take a minute dispatch as to start before the booked departure time.
Most seem to understand this rest need to look in the mirror thats glass thing on wall not the newspaper to see where fault is.

You obviously have no idea yourself what I was suggesting, or have not bothered to bend your obviously superior intellect to the situation. Or perhaps you are naturally rude But this does seem to be a prime example of the standard responses: "Pax are so stupid they can't understand" coupled with "these are the rules an cannot be questioned".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Cue lots of passengers wanting to know why the trains always leave late.

. Yes, I can see that at first - unless you change the terminology to "Doors close"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I presume this is for the initial departure of the train ?? as the dwells for most trains vary from ½ to 2 minutes at intermediate stops, the example you have given potentially has the doors closed before it arrives !

Interesting question - yes, I was thinking more of starting stations, or those with long dwell times. So why are the dwell times at intermediary stops shorter than the "up to three minutes"? Honest question: is the procedure for starting after a short stop different from that at start or after a longer stop. And what is the point of the signs displayed at a station like Ben Rhydding advising of the "up to three minutes" stuff, when trains are rarely there for more than 30 seconds?

 

[blacknight]

You obviously have no idea yourself what I was suggesting, or have not bothered to bend your obviously superior intellect to the situation. Or perhaps you are naturally rude But this does seem to be a prime example of the standard responses: "Pax are so stupid they can't understand" coupled with "these are the rules an cannot be questioned".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
. Yes, I can see that at first - unless you change the terminology to "Doors close"

Not naturally rude its taken years of pratice to hone these skills
If all pasengers were stupid there would be a full platform after every train as left.
Sometimes its best to leave things as they are you put 12.29 in timetable as you suggest then TOCs will wont doors locked at 12.29/00 not 12.00/59 so that at 12.30/00 platform is in rear view mirror from personal experience if train is booked away at 12.30 dispatch wont commence until after 12.29/30 as its not in despatchers interest to be left with platform of irrate passengers just to achieve a 12.30/00 departure, both staff & passengers have to use common sense.
So say for instance in your timetable 12.29 doors close & doors are closed at 12.29/40 but train cannot leave until booked time of 12.30 then you will have a train all locked up on platform ready to go that passengers cannot board going to please them I think not.

 

[jon0844]

I'd laugh if a moderator said that this thread was going to be locked at midnight and then closed it at 2359.

 

[GB]

You obviously have no idea yourself what I was suggesting, or have not bothered to bend your obviously superior intellect to the situation. Or perhaps you are naturally rude But this does seem to be a prime example of the standard responses: "Pax are so stupid they can't understand" coupled with "these are the rules an cannot be questioned".

No one has said passengers are stupid and no one has said rules cannot be questioned so there is no use trying to make a quote out of it.

The PTT and the WTT both list departure times..ie when it has left the platform. Up untill the rear of the train has left the platform the train is departing, to get a right time departure it stands to reason the dispatch procedure needs to be started XXXX before.

No one has yet offered a decent explanation of why they leave it untill the last few seconds to get the train or why their needs are more important then those that managed to get themselfs on the train in good time.

 

[Overground]

its passengers that complain about things like this that get on my goat !! at the end of the day and im sure if you read the national rail conditions of carriage it clearly states to be on the platform in plenty of time before your train departs this is so the service runs to time, its passengers like you who feel the need to leave your house at the last minute and end up delaying the train because you force your way iin the doors that theres problems so my advice instead of moaning about 30 seconds leave your house 2 minutes earlier

 

[BRX]

No one has yet offered a decent explanation of why they leave it untill the last few seconds to get the train or why their needs are more important then those that managed to get themselfs on the train in good time.

Have you read any of the thread at all?


By the way I noted that a train arrived, passengers off, driver changed ends, passengers boarded and dispatched all within 2 minutes at London Bridge the other day.

 

[GB]

19 pages of waffle and kack, no doubt there are posts I have missed.

 

[Oswyntail]

As I posted earlier some are hard of learning some are unable to comply with a simple directive,.....

No one has said passengers are stupid and no one has said rules cannot be questioned so there is no use trying to make a quote out of it.....

Well, just to remind you on the former, I have quoted a post from a few above yours that implies as such. And I would suggest that the frequent references throughout the board to the NCOC, Routing Guide, Fares Manual and, in this thread, the procedures for departure as if such references ended any discussion imply the latter. Talking of which....

its passengers that complain about things like this that get on my goat !! at the end of the day and im sure if you read the national rail conditions of carriage it clearly states to be on the platform in plenty of time before your train departs this is so the service runs to time, its passengers like you who feel the need to leave your house at the last minute and end up delaying the train because you force your way iin the doors that theres problems so my advice instead of moaning about 30 seconds leave your house 2 minutes earlier

I realise a) that you haven't read very much of this thread, certainly not those contributions where the topic has been described and b) you love the NCOC. However, you do not know me, otherwise you would know that one of my more obsessive traits is a need to arrive at least 20 minutes early for any train. So "passengers like you" doesn't really hit the mark. I don't think anyone on this thread approves of or supports those who "force your way in the doors", and I have never done this. That would not be sensible or safe. As for 30 seconds, it is longer than you imagine. Try sitting unmoving for thirty seconds - I suspect your attention span would have run out long before the end.
The main thrust concerns the variable and perhaps excessive amount of time before departure that TOCs are now claiming is necessary for closing doors; it is suggested that, rather than say, vaguely, "doors may be closed up to three minutes before" it would be better to use "door closing" time in the public timetables to avoid confusion and make things clear to passengers. Believe it or not, there has been a small amount of constructive discussion here about this. Perhaps you might like to read it.

 

[Harlesden]

Three times in the past month I have witnessed a London Overground guard on the Stratford-Richmond/Clapham Junction route observe passengers dashing down the stairs at Highbury & Islington while the doors are still open; but then close the doors anyway just as they're approaching the train.
It doesn't seem very customer friendly to me.
On the other hand, some London Overground guards are very considerate and will actually wait for a dasher

 

[A-driver]

I dont often wait for running passengers-as said before, why make everyone else who has got there on time late and possibly miss connections just for a couple of selfish late runners? And at many inner London stations you have a constant stream if people coming onto the platforms (such as clapham junction and easy Croydon). If you wait for them all then you will never move! You have to leave at some point.

As I keep saying, if you are not there on time then bad luck-not interested in why you are late. I always arrive in plenty of time to catch a train and never miss them!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Three times in the past month I have witnessed a London Overground guard on the Stratford-Richmond/Clapham Junction route observe passengers dashing down the stairs at Highbury & Islington while the doors are still open; but then close the doors anyway just as they're approaching the train.
It doesn't seem very customer friendly to me.
On the other hand, some London Overground guards are very considerate and will actually wait for a dasher

You have to leave at some point. Tell you what - the departure time seems like a good time, so in order to leave then, the dispatch process will have to be started, say 30s - 2m before?


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Yew]

There is quite a difference between a high frequency London service, to a two hourly service in the north

 

[michael769]

I cannot believe this discussion is still going on. I would have through that all the different ways to make the same point would have been exhausted by now.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Same here, I will only wait if there is a significant connection being made from another service, if I am the last train of the night, if passengers may be vulnerable (lone females at night, children, disabled etc) or if I know I have significant dwell time at an upcoming station.

If you want public transport to wait for you, get a taxi.

 

[Barrett M95]

I cannot believe this discussion is still going on. I would have through that all the different ways to make the same point would have been exhausted by now.

I was just thinking this, but before I clicked "unsubscribe" because I'm bored of it, I'll have a last look to see if it's reached a sensible conclusion.

Ahh well. Unsubscribe it is!

 

[jon0844]

Okay people, Barret M95 is gone - so here are Saturday's Lotto numbers....

 

[Flamingo]

He's got a point though, there is venting and venting

 

[Aictos]

Thing is though, the industry needs to maintain the on time ethic as a simple minute or two at one end of the country quickly affects a service at the other end even if the two don't even connect at any point.

And it doesn't even have to be a passenger service, all it takes is a freight train to be late running and it causes delays to passenger services which is why I strongly support the policy.

Some may think well as long as the doors close at the departure time it won't matter but do that at all the stations and the delays will quickly mount up.

 

[Oswyntail]

....
Some may think well as long as the doors close at the departure time it won't matter but do that at all the stations and the delays will quickly mount up.

Not if "departure time" is scheduled to be "door close" time - even if this means a nominal apparent increase in journey time. That is what I have been suggesting all along.

 

[Flamingo]

Not if "departure time" is scheduled to be "door close" time - even if this means a nominal apparent increase in journey time. That is what I have been suggesting all along.

Would the cost and effort involved in amending every timetable in the country by one minute be worth it?

I think not personally.

 

[graham43404]

Even if you put in the timetable time to enable doors to be closed before departure time you will end up with people knowing this and still leaving it to the last second or someone turning up when the trains just pulling out and saying "it's not that time on my watch".

 

[Minilad]

Even if you put in the timetable time to enable doors to be closed before departure time you will end up with people knowing this and still leaving it to the last second or someone turning up when the trains just pulling out and saying "it's not that time on my watch".

Because its always the Railways fault why the train has been missed. Never theirs

 

[Oswyntail]

Even if you put in the timetable time to enable doors to be closed before departure time you will end up with people knowing this and still leaving it to the last second or someone turning up when the trains just pulling out and saying "it's not that time on my watch".

Ah, don't get me started on differing timepieces (as you see, I have the stamina to prolong any thread, single handed) . IMHO, the greatest achievement of NSE was having large, visible, synchronised clocks that everyone could use. But, to answer your point, a "doors close" time would be just that, and whether the exact procedure is known about is irrelevant. The difference being that the "doors close in advance of time" version means that the published time has to be anticipated by an unspecified amount, leaving it open to query and grumbling, whereas the "doors close at the specified time" approach gives the time, after which no grumbling can be justified.

 

[313103]

Three times in the past month I have witnessed a London Overground guard on the Stratford-Richmond/Clapham Junction route observe passengers dashing down the stairs at Highbury & Islington while the doors are still open; but then close the doors anyway just as they're approaching the train.
It doesn't seem very customer friendly to me.
On the other hand, some London Overground guards are very considerate and will actually wait for a dasher

Could be me then, i only wait at Highbury if we have arrived early, if the train is late i wait for no one. If we waited for every single passenger running down these stairs at Highbury we will be there all day! Was this train running early? Was the train Running late? At the end of the day the passengers know the times of the trains if they cannot be there before that time that is not the Guards problem. What stairwell was this? If it was the eastbound the only way a Guard would know someone was coming down the stairs was if he/she is working in the front carriage. If it was the stairwell which serves the ell as well seeing someone come down the stairs can cause delay as the rear of the train is half way along the platform. With a service level of one train every 10 minutes and during the peak one every 7 minutes missing it would not cause that much of a hardship surely?

 

[Greenback]

Ah, don't get me started on differing timepieces (as you see, I have the stamina to prolong any thread, single handed) . IMHO, the greatest achievement of NSE was having large, visible, synchronised clocks that everyone could use. But, to answer your point, a "doors close" time would be just that, and whether the exact procedure is known about is irrelevant. The difference being that the "doors close in advance of time" version means that the published time has to be anticipated by an unspecified amount, leaving it open to query and grumbling, whereas the "doors close at the specified time" approach gives the time, after which no grumbling can be justified.

If the dorrs closed time in the timetables is every implemented, I have no doubts at all that it would be standardised across the network. This may well be 3 minutes ahead of departure to allow for large termini such as Euston, but it willc ertainly not be under a minute, due to the inability of the PTT to show seconds.

This would have the unfortunate effect that more people like me would miss the train, as there is a chance at present that getting to the platform at somewhere like Swansea at xx:xx:25 or xx:xx:35 means you might get on the train.

If timetables said that the doros close at 17:03 or 17:04 for a 17:05 departure. then the doors would be closed at that time and no later!

 

[Overground]

discussion ? theres no need to have a discussion on such a silly matter so dont get on your high horse. Im merely stating at the end of the day it is not going to change regardless how much you talk about it whether you like it or not train doors will close 30 seconds prior to departure and if you want to get your train then get to the platform early just like you would at an airport (yes yes yes i know its not quite the same but its an example) just get there early im sure leaving an extra couple of minutes really wont hurt and it saves running or getting trapped in the doors which i witness on a daily basis which also can result in further delays. So please don't try and be smart i werent being funny i was just stating that you should leave earlier