Train delayed, then skipped Castleford (but not cancelled!)

[johntea]

Here’s a bit of a strange one...

08:04 Sheffield to Leeds via Castleford departs 15 minutes late then gets to Wakefield and suddenly decides it wants to dodge Castleford

Now I know it can go the route avoiding Castleford but it seems as if it was never actually 'cancelled', just marked as 'no report' on Real Train Times...

I mean probably quite a sensible decision to do so as it managed to claw back a lot of the delay by doing so, but probably upset a few of the passengers stood at Castleford station in the rain! (plus anyone wanting to alight at Castleford although I suppose they could have bailed at Kirkgate for the 09:28)

 

[Spartacus]

Seems to be a RTT quirk that I've not noticed before myself as it's showing the same time at Castleford as Woodlesford. Don't worry, there's a 'fail to stop' in Trust for Castleford, which I suspect was in long before it got there giving passengers plenty of notice. Once the Leeds - Knottingley had cleared Castleford there wouldn't have been much difference between the one from Sheffield and the one from Knottingley so it shouldn't have inconvenienced passengers at Castleford too much.

 

[yorksrob]

It does happen from time to time, and Castleford does at least have the luxury of a half hourly service to Leeds at least.

 

[johntea]

Happened again this morning although at least this time they're actually showing it as 'Cancelled'!

 

[DMN42]

SWR do a lot of station skipping if a train is behind schedule. SWR say its to help with the scheduling but everyone else things it saves them money on the delay-repay claims.

One of my friends went shopping in Basingstoke and was going back to Farnborough - three stops down the line. After leaving Basingstoke (16 minutes late) they decided to fast run the thing all the way to Waterloo.

 

[johntea]

This now seems to be an ongoing issue, what is happening at Sheffield to cause the service to depart so late?

I say Sheffield, but that was 11 late - by the time it left Meadowhell it was 22 late!

 

[tomwills98]

SWR do a lot of station skipping if a train is behind schedule. SWR say its to help with the scheduling but everyone else things it saves them money on the delay-repay claims.

One of my friends went shopping in Basingstoke and was going back to Farnborough - three stops down the line. After leaving Basingstoke (16 minutes late) they decided to fast run the thing all the way to Waterloo.

The timetable should recover on it's own, but the best way to recover the timetable and stop residual delays is skipping stations. The delayed train can get back to it's normal path and avoid holding up the train behind it. If they didn't get it to run fast, it would probably cause havoc when getting to Waterloo making a few trains there late.

Delay Repay is probably pittance compared to fines for late running and everything else in general. Also whilst the people on the train may be less late and not get as much compo, the people on the stations the train has failed to call at can also claim.

 

[Iskra]

I don't see why this service should divert via Castleford anyway, it's off-putting for passengers further South. And means leaving Leeds at busy times the train gets swamped with Castleford commuters and longer distance passengers can't board (and they don't have the benefit of an alternate service like Cas passengers do).

 

[Adam0984]

I don't see why this service should divert via Castleford anyway, it's off-putting for passengers further South. And means leaving Leeds at busy times the train gets swamped with Castleford commuters and longer distance passengers can't board (and they don't have the benefit of an alternate service like Cas passengers do).

The long distance people should get the express which leaves 5 mins after but gets to Wakefield, Barnsley, Meadowhall and Sheffield earlier. The stopper should be for local travellers for Woodlesford, Castleford and Normanton primarily

 

[Iskra]

The long distance people should get the express which leaves 5 mins after but gets to Wakefield, Barnsley, Meadowhall and Sheffield earlier. The stopper should be for local travellers for Woodlesford, Castleford and Normanton primarily

What about all the intermediate stations? Darton, for example.

The service on this line is a mess, and as a regular user, you are unlikely to convince me otherwise!

 

[tbtc]

Here’s a bit of a strange one...

08:04 Sheffield to Leeds via Castleford departs 15 minutes late then gets to Wakefield and suddenly decides it wants to dodge Castleford

I'm sure that most of us have felt like that from time to time!

Seriously though, it seems a fair approach, if it means that a service gets to Leeds at a reasonable time and can then form the subsequent Leeds - Castleford - Sheffield service (and for the rest of the day) - not ideal, sure, but the vast majority on board will have been heading to Leeds, so you're only inconveniencing the smaller number of Wakefield - Castleford passengers (who have the ex-Huddersfield service to use too) and the passengers at Castleford wanting Leeds (who will have had the Knottingley service a few minutes later than the ex-Sheffield one would have got through Castleford anyway, as discussed above).

Really though, the Castleford - Leeds path ought to go to an additional ex-Pontefract service - maybe extend the ex-Sheffield service through to York or just terminate it at Wakefield/ Castleford - nobody heading from South Yorkshire to Leeds wants the time consuming dog-leg via Castleford - the service exists from BR days when there were fewer trains on the line and therefore a need for a "Box ticking" route that tried to satisfy several different markets (and produced one slow service as a result).

 

[Adam0984]

What about all the intermediate stations? Darton, for example.

The service on this line is a mess, and as a regular user, you are unlikely to convince me otherwise!

Darton onwards have the choice of squashing on the stopper with the people that HAVE to get that train or getting on the Express and change at Wakefield for Darton or Barnsley for Wombwell, Elsecar and Chapeltown when the stopper has get quieter. Also them for Wombwell, Elsecar and Chapeltown have the option of the Nottingham train too and change at Barnsley for the ex Huddersfield stopper.

 

[LMS 4F]

What about all the intermediate stations? Darton, for example.

The service on this line is a mess, and as a regular user, you are unlikely to convince me otherwise!

I remember Altofts station, which was on the Castleford avoiding line, being open and trains calling. It would help if one of the fast trains an hour could call at Normanton, thus giving a twice hourly service to somewhere of a reasonable size with a ten minute bus service to Castleford quite near to the station.

 

[tbtc]

I don't see why this service should divert via Castleford anyway, it's off-putting for passengers further South. And means leaving Leeds at busy times the train gets swamped with Castleford commuters and longer distance passengers can't board (and they don't have the benefit of an alternate service like Cas passengers do).

It would help if one of the fast trains an hour could call at Normanton, thus giving a twice hourly service to somewhere of a reasonable size with a ten minute bus service to Castleford quite near to the station.

I'm with @Iskra here - these are long distance services (for Nottingham/ Lincoln) - the ones often described as "fast" (though they already take an hour to cover a distance between Sheffield and Leeds that is thirty miles as the crow flies) - trying to accommodate potentially large numbers of short distance commuters would swamp it - there should be local trains for local people.

 

[Iskra]

Darton onwards have the choice of squashing on the stopper with the people that HAVE to get that train or getting on the Express and change at Wakefield for Darton or Barnsley for Wombwell, Elsecar and Chapeltown when the stopper has get quieter. Also them for Wombwell, Elsecar and Chapeltown have the option of the Nottingham train too and change at Barnsley for the ex Huddersfield stopper.

There are options, I'm not disputing that. But each additional hindrance all serves to make the train less and less attractive. It's 35 minutes in my car, cheaper, cleaner, quieter and more comfortable. If this line had a rational service pattern that focused on the needs of its customers rather than the railway, it would be a lot more popular.

 

[30907]

There are options, I'm not disputing that. But each additional hindrance all serves to make the train less and less attractive. It's 35 minutes in my car, cheaper, cleaner, quieter and more comfortable. If this line had a rational service pattern that focused on the needs of its customers rather than the railway, it would be a lot more popular.

Would you like to define that, and justify any increase to services?

 

[Iskra]

Would you like to define that, and justify any increase to services?

Initially services wouldn't increase. The only initial improvement that would be made would be simply removing the detour and double back to Castleford. This would remove the associated time penalty making the journey more attractive to customers at Woodlesford, Normanton, Darton, Wombwell, Eslecar and Chapeltown, by speeding it up and removing the need for a change. In time, when loadings increased you could look at additional vehicles. This would relieve the current 2-car semi-fast services and speed up journey times. Wakefield-Normanton-Castleford journeys would still be provided by the existing new service from Huddersfield. Logically, Castleford would lose 1tph to Leeds. Ideally you would find some more rolling stock to run a shuttle between Castleford and Leeds. At some point in the future platform 17 would be lengthened (I suspect this may happen in the future anyway) or working arrangements changed to allow the semi fast and hallam line trains to run as more than 2 cars or a 3 car 144 as demand increased on the Hallam line stopper and to better meet existing demand on the semi-fasts. Pathing & Timetabling would have to be looked at, but my immediate thought is that the current semi-fast would overtake the Hallam line stopper at Wakefield Kirkgate to make the timetable work.

 

[LMS 4F]

Initially services wouldn't increase. The only initial improvement that would be made would be simply removing the detour and double back to Castleford. This would remove the associated time penalty making the journey more attractive to customers at Woodlesford, Normanton, Darton, Wombwell, Eslecar and Chapeltown, by speeding it up and removing the need for a change. In time, when loadings increased you could look at additional vehicles. This would relieve the current 2-car semi-fast services and speed up journey times. Wakefield-Normanton-Castleford journeys would still be provided by the existing new service from Huddersfield. Logically, Castleford would lose 1tph to Leeds. Ideally you would find some more rolling stock to run a shuttle between Castleford and Leeds. At some point in the future platform 17 would be lengthened (I suspect this may happen in the future anyway) or working arrangements changed to allow the semi fast and hallam line trains to run as more than 2 cars or a 3 car 144 as demand increased on the Hallam line stopper and to better meet existing demand on the semi-fasts. Pathing & Timetabling would have to be looked at, but my immediate thought is that the current semi-fast would overtake the Hallam line stopper at Wakefield Kirkgate to make the timetable work.

I can't imagine a reduction of trains at Castleford being welcomed without loud protests. It is a very well used service and the train is twice as fast as the best bus times.

 

[Iskra]

I can't imagine a reduction of trains at Castleford being welcomed without loud protests. It is a very well used service and the train is twice as fast as the best bus times.

If you found one more unit to run a shuttle as I suggested, the service would probably increase rather than decrease...

 

[Glenn1969]

But Northern hasn't got enough stock to run existing services some of the time never mind add new ones

 

[LMS 4F]

If you found one more unit to run a shuttle as I suggested, the service would probably increase rather than decrease...

If is a little word with big implications. The chances of a shuttle must be very low down any list of improvements or additional services.

 

[Iskra]

But Northern hasn't got enough stock to run existing services some of the time never mind add new ones

I'm not sure that's true? What Northern services are cancelled due to rolling stock shortages? They are able to take on the new Scarborough service, extend the Huddersfield-Wakefield service, introduce Halifax-Hull, introduce Chester-Leeds and extend one of the Leeds-Sheffield semi-fasts to Lincoln, run double-units on other lines, but they can't find one unit?

Perhaps they should resource their existing commitments properly before introducing new routes and services.

They are short of drivers and have an issue with Sunday-working, but they seem to have plenty of units, for elsewhere at least...

 

[marcouk2]

I'm not sure that's true? What Northern services are cancelled due to rolling stock shortages? They are able to take on the new Scarborough service, extend the Huddersfield-Wakefield service, introduce Halifax-Hull, introduce Chester-Leeds and extend one of the Leeds-Sheffield semi-fasts to Lincoln, run double-units on other lines, but they can't find one unit?

Perhaps they should resource their existing commitments properly before introducing new routes and services.

They are short of drivers and have an issue with Sunday-working, but they seem to have plenty of units, for elsewhere at least...

Well the Northern Fail app says 168 reduced carriage services today so I'd say that Northern appear to be short of trains.

 

[Iskra]

Well the Northern Fail app says 168 reduced carriage services today so I'd say that Northern appear to be short of trains.

There are only 20 train formation updates on the Northern Rail website for today currently and of services on the East side two are formed of 3 instead of 2 carriages, and one is the opposite. The North West is a completely different story, but an extra unit for Castleford wouldn't affect that. And as previously stated, they have plenty of rolling stock for introducing new services, route learning and extending existing ones, so what's one more...

 

[northernchris]

There are only 20 train formation updates on the Northern Rail website for today currently and of services on the East side two are formed of 3 instead of 2 carriages, and one is the opposite. The North West is a completely different story, but an extra unit for Castleford wouldn't affect that. And as previously stated, they have plenty of rolling stock for introducing new services, route learning and extending existing ones, so what's one more...

Northern do have a severe unit shortage in the east, with cancellations most days. Ironically, a regular cancelation is the 0711 Castleford - Leeds which was cancelled yesterday as no unit was available

Is there much demand for Castleford - Meadowhall / Sheffield, and for the South Yorkshire station to Leeds? The Leeds - Castleford - Sheffield service works well for operational convenience, but would be interesting to know what the common flows are

 

[LMS 4F]

Northern do have a severe unit shortage in the east, with cancellations most days. Ironically, a regular cancelation is the 0711 Castleford - Leeds which was cancelled yesterday as no unit was available

Is there much demand for Castleford - Meadowhall / Sheffield, and for the South Yorkshire station to Leeds? The Leeds - Castleford - Sheffield service works well for operational convenience, but would be interesting to know what the common flows are

The morning commuter services into Leeds are crammed by the time they get to Normanton. It won't be Wakefield passengers as they would have gone from Westgate, much quicker, so they have to be from Darton and beyond back to Sheffield.
Most regulars between Sheffield and Leeds use XC as this is the quickest by far of the three services but this causes overcrowding issues on these trains.

 

[Adam0984]

Northern do have a severe unit shortage in the east, with cancellations most days. Ironically, a regular cancelation is the 0711 Castleford - Leeds which was cancelled yesterday as no unit was available

Is there much demand for Castleford - Meadowhall / Sheffield, and for the South Yorkshire station to Leeds? The Leeds - Castleford - Sheffield service works well for operational convenience, but would be interesting to know what the common flows are

Unfortunately that 0711 is an easy one to cancel comes off Holbeck, ECS to Castleford, 0711 to Leeds then ECS to Neville Hill

 

[northernchris]

The morning commuter services into Leeds are crammed by the time they get to Normanton. It won't be Wakefield passengers as they would have gone from Westgate, much quicker, so they have to be from Darton and beyond back to Sheffield.
Most regulars between Sheffield and Leeds use XC as this is the quickest by far of the three services but this causes overcrowding issues on these trains.

Thanks for this, sounds like it is well used across Castleford then

Unfortunately that 0711 is an easy one to cancel comes off Holbeck, ECS to Castleford, 0711 to Leeds then ECS to Neville Hill

Makes sense, although questions the need of the 0711 as there's a 0704 from Castleford to Leeds so the unit could be used for strengthening on the days its available!

 

[Iskra]

Thanks for this, sounds like it is well used across Castleford then



Makes sense, although questions the need of the 0711 as there's a 0704 from Castleford to Leeds so the unit could be used for strengthening on the days its available!

Can you explain how you've come to that conclusion? He's saying it's already full before it gets to Castleford. And the vast majority continue to Leeds.

 

[northernchris]

Can you explain how you've come to that conclusion? He's saying it's already full before it gets to Castleford. And the vast majority continue to Leeds.

I can. If the train is well loaded pre-Castleford on journeys towards Leeds then passengers are using the service from further afield. I was initially unsure whether the service was predominately used by Leeds - Castleford/Normanton passengers, then Darton onwards towards Sheffield which I now know isn't the case