Train delayed due to excessive speeding

[43066]

I’m not sure there’s much of a “funny side” to see when something like this happens - that’ll be on the driver’s record for the rest of his career and could, depending on his prior record, mean the end of that career!

 

[skyhigh]

The conductor and the driver saw the funny side. We could hear them in the front cab laughing.

I'm going to be bluntly honest and suggest this is at least an embellishment of the truth. I don't know of any driver who would find a safety of the line incident of the magnitude you suggest amusing.

Seeing as you were close enough to hear what was going on in the front cab, did you hear any other sounds?

 

[MichaelTrains]

I'm going to be bluntly honest and suggest this is at least an embellishment of the truth. I don't know of any driver who would find a safety of the line incident of the magnitude you suggest amusing.

Seeing as you were close enough to hear what was going on in the front cab, did you hear any other sounds?

I have no reason to embellish anything.

There was already the driver and another member of staff in the front cab on leaving Leeds.

After the train had stopped, I presume the driver phoned the conductor and asked him to come to the front cab.

When he arrived , there were three people in the front cab and the laughter was audible to those of us sat at the front table.

It was difficult to hear word for word what they were saying but they were actually saying but they were on the phone to the control centre.

If the train was speeding as indicated by the conductor how long does it take to reset?

 

[66701GBRF]

That's the train.

It added an extra thirty minutes to my journey time.

But you said the train was held for 30 minutes outside Leeds. That is clearly not the case going by the RealTimeTrain recordings. You may have been 30 late by time you got to your destination that isn't the same as the train being stopped for 30 minutes.

While I haven't seen any TRUST reports I also can't see anything that is logged on other railway systems regarding that train.

 

[TheBigD]

The delay to the service is shown as tpws failure, forward at 60mph max on trust...

 

[43066]

The delay to the service is shown as tpws failure, forward at 60mph max on trust...

That’s good news. In which case not the driver’s fault, and nothing to do with speeding! Presumably they isolated it. Might also explain the other person in the cab if AWS was also out…

 

[800001]

That’s good news. In which case not the driver’s fault, and nothing to do with speeding! Presumably they isolated it. Might also explain the other person in the cab if AWS was also out…

Absolutely, if running at 60 with AWS/TPWS fault, then a second competent person needs to be in the cab, I also think it’s limited to how many miles it can operate at like that until the train is taken out of service.

 

[Dieseldriver]

That’s good news. In which case not the driver’s fault, and nothing to do with speeding! Presumably they isolated it. Might also explain the other person in the cab if AWS was also out…

In which case I still stand by my previous comment if the OP’s recollection of the announcement is right

 

[43066]

In which case I still stand by my previous comment if the OP’s recollection of the announcement is right

Fully agreed.

 

[westcoaster]

The delay to the service is shown as tpws failure, forward at 60mph max on trust...

That's good news, might also explain the second driver in the cab.
I'm know on the stock I drive if the AWS and/or TPWS is isolated and you hit 1 mph over the limit the brakes apply.

 

[Dieseldriver]

That's good news, might also explain the second driver in the cab.
I'm know on the stock I drive if the AWS and/or TPWS is isolated and you hit 1 mph over the limit the brakes apply.

Your stock automatically regulates the train speed to 60mph to comply with the rule book requirements if AWS/TPWS is isolated?

 

[greatkingrat]

Absolutely, if running at 60 with AWS/TPWS fault, then a second competent person needs to be in the cab, I also think it’s limited to how many miles it can operate at like that until the train is taken out of service.

No, you can do 60mph without a competent person. You only need a second person to do over 60mph.

 

[800001]

No, you can do 60mph without a competent person. You only need a second person to do over 60mph.

Ah, my bad, so many different rules

 

[dk1]

Ah, my bad, so many different rules

Add in some fog or falling snow lol

 

[Deepgreen]

Thinking of a road analogy, you might have a rural road with a specific speed limit e.g. 50mph, but where some bends can't be taken safely at more than 30mph. It's up to drivers to be aware of that, rather than expecting the posted limit to be reduced to a lower value on the approach to each bend.

Not really, no - any curve on a railway line which needs to be taken at less than the previous speed limit will have its own specific limit. If a speed limit sign says, say, 100mph then the driver is cleared to travel at that speed until another speed limit sign is encountered, which might be, say, 80mph on a curve. Train drivers are never left to make up their own minds on a safe speed for a stretch of track!

 

[43066]

Train drivers are never left to make up their own minds on a safe speed for a stretch of track!

Erm, yes they are. The speed limit isn’t a target….

 

[800001]

Add in some fog or falling snow lol

But you only have to push a button an pull a leaver to drive a train

 

[dk1]

But you only have to push a button an pull a leaver to drive a train

Oh don’t they just craze ya? String them along & belittle them. That’s what I do haha.

 

[Deepgreen]

Erm, yes they are. The speed limit isn’t a target….

Sorry, I meant the maximum for that stretch. To claim that train drivers are expected to slow down for certain curves within an overall speed limit is wrong - every required speed reduction is posted. In any case, timetables are generally based on drivers running at the maximum posted speed throughout (subject to their stock's capabilities), with dwell times added for recovery, rather than being expected to run at significantly below the maximum and simply trying to judge speed against time to adhere to the schedule.

 

[skyhigh]

I have no reason to embellish anything.

You said that the train was held for 30 mins leaving Leeds. That clearly was not the case.

When he arrived , there were three people in the front cab and the laughter was audible to those of us sat at the front table.

It was difficult to hear word for word what they were saying but they were actually saying but they were on the phone to the control centre.

If you were sitting at the front table, and you could hear laughter and that they were on the phone there is also something else you would have clearly heard if a TPWS activation occurred. I assume you didn't hear it, as you haven't mentioned it...

The delay to the service is shown as tpws failure, forward at 60mph max on trust...

That’s good news. In which case not the driver’s fault, and nothing to do with speeding! Presumably they isolated it. Might also explain the other person in the cab if AWS was also out…

That is the exact reason for the delay I can see on a different system too. Not driver error.

No, you can do 60mph without a competent person. You only need a second person to do over 60mph.

That's the rule book answer. Northern policy does not recognise the relaxation caused by having the second 'competent person' in the cab. The limit is always 60mph. As it's more restrictive than the rule book, that's fine.

 

[43066]

To claim that train drivers are expected to slow down for certain curves within an overall speed limit is wrong - every required speed reduction is posted.

Fully agree with you there. Sorry to be pedantic, but it’s important to be precise about these things.

 

[DelW]

Sorry, I meant the maximum for that stretch. To claim that train drivers are expected to slow down for certain curves within an overall speed limit is wrong - every required speed reduction is posted. In any case, timetables are generally based on drivers running at the maximum posted speed throughout (subject to their stock's capabilities), with dwell times added for recovery, rather than being expected to run at significantly below the maximum and simply trying to judge speed against time to adhere to the schedule.

In bold - that wasn't a claim I made!

I was looking for an analogy for the fact that TPWS was (apparently) set to trigger at a speed below line speed. That setting may have been chosen for one of several reasons, but since there obviously aren't TPWS systems on roads, I chose a different but hopefully analogous situation, for which car drivers might have to slow to below the speed limit.

I didn't make any comment at all about train drivers slowing for curves.

 

[skyhigh]

I was looking for an analogy for the fact that TPWS was (apparently) set to trigger at a speed below line speed.

TPWS will almost always be set to trigger at below linespeed. I'm sure there will be examples where it's set to enfore the maximum permissable speed, but in the vast majority of cases the permissable speed is enforced by random downloads and speed gun checks.

Examples of TPWS being set below linespeed are on the approach to red signals, buffer stops (normally set to around 10-12mph though permissable speed into the platform may be 15+) and on the approach to speed reductions. For example, on a line I sign there is a reduction from 85 to 60mph. There are overspeeds in advance of the commencement board for the 60 set at (from memory) 80mph meaning you could be stopped while below the permitted linespeed.Basically it's entirely normal to find TPWS set below linespeed.

 

[43066]

Examples of TPWS being set below linespeed are on the approach to red signals, buffer stops (normally set to around 10-12mph though permissable speed into the platform may be 15+) and on the approach to speed reductions.

TPWS+ (only at locations with linespeed above 90mph, and has caused my depot a lot of issues of late) is generally 65mph-ish, TPWS generally 43mph-ish…

I doubt it’s set to linespeed anywhere, as it’s intended to protect certain high risk locations, such as junctions, large speed reductions etc., where the brake should already be well and truly in…

 

[MichaelTrains]

But you said the train was held for 30 minutes outside Leeds. That is clearly not the case going by the RealTimeTrain recordings. You may have been 30 late by time you got to your destination that isn't the same as the train being stopped for 30 minutes.

While I haven't seen any TRUST reports I also can't see anything that is logged on other railway systems regarding that train.

I arrived at my destination 30 minutes late which was due to the delay outside the station.

We left Leeds on time and arrived 30 minutes later than planned.

Is that not a thirty minute delay?

 

[6Gman]

I arrived at my destination 30 minutes late which was due to the delay outside the station.

We left Leeds on time and arrived 30 minutes later than planned.

Is that not a thirty minute delay?

But what you wrote was that "the train was held outside Leeds station for 30 minutes". It wasn't.

 

[800001]

I arrived at my destination 30 minutes late which was due to the delay outside the station.

We left Leeds on time and arrived 30 minutes later than planned.

Is that not a thirty minute delay?

But that is not what you wrote on your original post!

You stated you were sat outside of Leeds for 30 mins.

 

[westcoaster]

Your stock automatically regulates the train speed to 60mph to comply with the rule book requirements if AWS/TPWS

Yes the trian management systems does it all, even when driving under ETCS with isolations it knows and puts you in a different level of ETCS. If the train goes over 102mph it cuts traction power.
Power and technology evolving.

 

[niggill617@gma]

For the driver it's all about route knowledge and the mythical black art of train driving. For the TPWS designer it's simply mathematical physics, as taught to a 14 year old.

Regarding TPWS for red signals the safety overlap is significant, as to the positioning of the arming and trip grids.

Forgot to include gradient.

 

[bramling]

It’s quite unprofessional to describe a safety of the line incident to the passengers in such terms.

Also I’m not sure there’s much of a “funny side” to see when something like this happens - that’ll be on the driver’s record for the rest of his career and could, depending on his prior record, mean the end of that career!

I’ve heard on LU a driver announce “apologies for the sharp stop there, the computer didn’t like my driving so decided to put the brakes on”.

Not really a major issue on most of the ATP LU lines, as unlike mainline the driver is essentially *expected* to be driving right up to the wire, and secondly the Thales system in particular is so bug-laden that reality is anyone doing extensive amounts of manual driving is going to get “got” from time to time.