Train crew actions: Passengers refusing to pay/get off train.

[reastreetmetro]

Hello,

I have recently been successful in applying for a train manager role with XC.

I was just wondering in general what you do, or what you *actually* do if someone just gets on a train with no ticket and no intention to pay, like if they literally ignore you. I can assume there is a "hands-off" policy and I can't imagine a train would just be stopped till the matter is resolved as this would cause sever issues across the line. Is it a case of call BTP to see if they can meet you at a future station or any other tactics?

I am aware this will be covered in training, and I am not worried about it overall, just curious as to whether different operators may have different policies and practises. Apologies if this is the wrong section of the forum, I was unsure.

Don't worry, you are right all of this is covered in training but you really need to be a sensible person and understand the limits of your powers.

You want to avoid laying a finger on passengers at all costs otherwise you could be accused of assault or cause the situation to become violent.

If you are a sensible person you will not attempt to go and 'catch' fare dodgers. Your job as a guard is not to punish wrong doers. Revenue protection staff and BTP are there to do that.

When you meet a passenger who refuses to pay you must use your 'soft power' skills. Do not refuse to move the train unless they pose a genuine risk to the safety of others. Once you've laid down that ultimatum to them you've got nowhere to go so only use as a last resort!

Your primary job is to ensure the safety of the train and its passengers. Once that is established you are there to help passengers to do the right thing i.e. provide support and advice, ensure they have the correct ticket, keep their feet off the seats, not otherwise annoy other passengers etc. You should be a caring expert on railway travel who is visible and on hand to help passengers in every way possible.

With digital tickets you can report irregularities at the touch of a button. Just take a look at the sub-forum on 'disputes and prosecutions' to see the sheer number of passengers who are being hunted down by TOCs for failing to buy the right ticket after they've had their e- ticket scanned by staff.

With other types of fare dodgers it's about saving face and demonstrating that you are attempting to do something however small to prove to the fare paying majority that they did the right thing by buying their own ticket. You can do this by giving them a lecture, or a penalty warning ticket as described above.

If you view the job in the way I've described it above and you have the right temperament and character you will love working on the railway.

If you don't the job will slowly grind you down and you might join the ranks of the moaners who think society is going to hell in a hand cart.

Good luck and congratulations! (from a guard of 12 years experience who has done it the 'wrong' way during the early years and learned the hard way how to treat passengers correctly).

 

[Meerkat]

Unless you have some kind of facial recognition CCTV system that alerts the police as soon as someone enters the railway, I just don’t see any way of enforcing it (maybe that will come one day). Nobody is required to present ID to purchase a train ticket, or to board a train. A “rogues gallery” wouldn’t be much use at a London terminal where one or two staff monitor gatelines through which tens of thousands of people pass per hour.

I don’t disagree with the idea of permanently banning serious/repeat offenders from the railway, in the way airlines do, but I just can’t see how this is achievable in an open system.

The culprit will live somewhere/work somewhere - they will likely have a travel pattern.
And you wouldnt look for them at the London end, you would look for them at the other, quieter, end.
If you know who you are looking for then you can spot them from a photo.

 

[Tevion539]

To answer the OP,

There’s been many replies, many of which haven’t read but thought I’d give my experience.

I only ever delay a train for a disruptive/aggressive passenger. As many have said it’s simply not worth delaying over a minor ticketing issue.

There’s many ways to deal with fare dodgers. If someone is going one stop and refusing to pay, there’s no real point in losing sleep over it. Most tocs will have an internal process of reporting instances like this.

If someone presents an invalid digital ticket, they can be easily flagged and dealt with at a later date. This can also avoid confrontation. The main thing is to make sure you stay safe. People who dodge fares will eventually get caught.

 

[Undiscovered]

I think I'm quite pragmatic on my approach to checking tickets, and I let a lot of things go, preferring discretion or the quiet word, or annotation of an account, for irregularities.

There will come a point, in your career, mind, that you will decide things aren't going to slide, and that the passenger is going to leave the train. It's not a case of 'saving face', and should never be done out of anger or discrimination, rather making a point that fare evasion won't be tolerated.

I've had such moments, twice, in my relatively short career, each one resulting in at least 10minutes delay, if not more.
Afterwards, I wrote my report, sent it to my boss. We had an informal chat a few days later and nothing more was ever said.
As long as it's not every single day, most TOCs realise that, at some points, guards have to be seen to be acting on fare evasion. It speaks volumes to passengers and, more importantly, speaks volumes to staff that they will be supported and backed up.

 

[357]

I think I'm quite pragmatic on my approach to checking tickets, and I let a lot of things go, preferring discretion or the quiet word, or annotation of an account, for irregularities.

There will come a point, in your career, mind, that you will decide things aren't going to slide, and that the passenger is going to leave the train. It's not a case of 'saving face', and should never be done out of anger or discrimination, rather making a point that fare evasion won't be tolerated.

I've had such moments, twice, in my relatively short career, each one resulting in at least 10minutes delay, if not more.
Afterwards, I wrote my report, sent it to my boss. We had an informal chat a few days later and nothing more was ever said.
As long as it's not every single day, most TOCs realise that, at some points, guards have to be seen to be acting on fare evasion. It speaks volumes to passengers and, more importantly, speaks volumes to staff that they will be supported and backed up.

I used to have your attitude, when I was about 18.

You later reach the point where you understand it's not your job and management won't have your back if you're assaulted over a ticking dispute.

I don't get involved with passengers anymore but the equivalent for me now is crossing misuse. I report every incident where many don't, as when NR looks to close crossings they look at where the most misuse is.

In your case, instead of delaying everyone else on your train and others - complete the paperwork/report and state the person was uncooperative.

"This train isn't going anywhere until you get off" type moments should be reserved for the most disruptive or abusive. Not someone with the wrong ticket.

 

[Tevion539]

"This train isn't going anywhere until you get off" type moments should be reserved for the most disruptive or abusive. Not someone with the wrong ticket.

I think the only time I’ve asked someone to leave over a ticket is when they were intoxicated and couldn’t make up their mind. We were going in circles for ten minutes and the topic kept changing. So even then, asking them to leave was more about the intoxicated state and not ticketing.

Agree, though. Only those genuinely being disruptive to other passengers safety/comfort should really be asked to leave.

When it comes to people not wanting to pay, remind them of the consequences if caught, report and move on. Certainly isn’t worth being assaulted

 

[Undiscovered]

I think the only time I’ve asked someone to leave over a ticket is when they were intoxicated and couldn’t make up their mind. We were going in circles for ten minutes and the topic kept changing. So even then, asking them to leave was more about the intoxicated state and not ticketing.

That's not asking someone to leave though.
That's a genuine concern for welfare, which you would have backed up by requesting medical attention and police assistance at the next available stop, or at least sourcing assistance at a staffed station.

I'm hoping that's what you did. Rather than abandoning a vulnerable passenger at an unstaffed station.

 

[Tevion539]

That's not asking someone to leave though.
That's a genuine concern for welfare, which you would have backed up by requesting medical attention and police assistance at the next available stop, or at least sourcing assistance at a staffed station.

I'm hoping that's what you did. Rather than abandoning a vulnerable passenger at an unstaffed station.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely called BTP to attend.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I once sat on a stationary train for about 5 minutes while the Scotrail guard attempted to get a young man to pay for a ticket or leave. This was just after opening the doors at a minor station on the route. The guard had tried to inspect his ticket just before the stop as the youth had been on the train since a previous station. The guard then refused to dispatch the train, and instead stood and discussed with the youth who was not interested in even speaking about it. Eventually, another passenger frustrated by the growing delay hauled the young man out his seat and threw him out onto the platform, and stood in the doorway to stop him getting back on while the guard closed the doors.

I just didn't see the point in any of it. It didn't reflect well on the guard, caused delay, abandoned someone at a stop where another train might not call for an hour and the passenger who took matters into his own hands, to get the train moving, could have been charged with assault. Got to be sensible about what is best for all involved. I was getting to the point where I was considering paying the required ticket just to get the train going.
I understand that dealing with fare dodgers on a daily basis must be very frustrating but perhaps other people on the train will miss connections, meetings, events - unless you know the timetable has the padding to allow a short delay.

Sounds like be the famous one on YouTube I've seen which happened at Linlithgow.

 

[43066]

There will come a point, in your career, mind, that you will decide things aren't going to slide, and that the passenger is going to leave the train. It's not a case of 'saving face', and should never be done out of anger or discrimination, rather making a point that fare evasion won't be tolerated.

I can only agree with @357 . I’d respectfully ask who you think you’re helping, by making such a “stand”?

(Your own ego, perhaps, we’ve all been there. Being at work really isn’t the time to go in that direction, though.)

Not the passengers who are paying to travel from A to B;
Not your on train colleagues who just want to get home/to a break;
Not your control colleagues who are working out what that unit you’re delaying will do next;
Not the signallers who have to route trains around yours, and delay thousands of other people.

Please, please don’t do this sort of thing. I guarantee your colleagues, and your managers, will like you a lot more if you don’t.

You mention you’re new to the guard role. @LowLevel will give you some cracking advice, I’m sure, if you ask him nicely .

 

[357]

I can only agree with @357 . I’d respectfully ask who you think you’re helping, by making such a “stand”?

Not the passengers who are paying to travel from A to B;
Not your colleagues who just want to get home/to a break;
Not your control colleagues who are working out what that unit you’re delaying will do next;
Not the signallers who have to route trains around yours.

Please, please don’t do this sort of thing. I guarantee your colleagues will like you a lot more if you don’t.

Exactly this.

If the reason is the passenger is at risk, a danger to themselves, or a danger to others then that's absolutely fine.

But for a ticket? Nah.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2025 ==

It's also worth noting that these "I'm better than you" moments cost real money in the form of delay minutes and delay repay, let alone increased risk during the peak of someone having a medical episode on a train trapped behind.

 

[HeritageSussex]

Sounds like be the famous one on YouTube I've seen which happened at Linlithgow.

Yes. Maybe I just imagined I was on this train as I had seen the video, and would have paid for the ticket if the situation arose. I've definately been on other trains during a battle of wills with the guard. Maybe I was on board? Not trying to deceive anyone or make myself famous - just old age creeping in .

It must be Glasgow to Edinburgh service, not what the video says, as a Perth train doesn't go that route.

 

[RailEnt]

Some trains on some routes in the UK need armed police. The amount of hooligans, junkies and aggressive people i have seen in the uk on some certain lines it is absolutely unacceptable.
Nothing will change. TOC’ just want the train to be on the move. It is hard job, if you do it properly.

 

[LowLevel]

I can only agree with @357 . I’d respectfully ask who you think you’re helping, by making such a “stand”?

(Your own ego, perhaps, we’ve all been there. Being at work really isn’t the time to go in that direction, though.)

Not the passengers who are paying to travel from A to B;
Not your on train colleagues who just want to get home/to a break;
Not your control colleagues who are working out what that unit you’re delaying will do next;
Not the signallers who have to route trains around yours, and delay thousands of other people.

Please, please don’t do this sort of thing. I guarantee your colleagues, and your managers, will like you a lot more if you don’t.

You mention you’re new to the guard role. @LowLevel will give you some cracking advice, I’m sure, if you ask him nicely .

I'm not going to criticise - we are all human and have the odd moment - the trick is to try and bottle it up for later release (but not longer than necessary - a mess room or pub rant with your mates is ideal), or avoid it becoming disruptive. Expecting someone to go year after year and never bite is a bit unreasonable.

The best folks I know (me included) have had "one of those days" where they've declared stuff it, it's been a rubbish week/month/year, I'm fed up of idiots turning up at my door, it is time to make a point. The key is not letting it go beyond all redemption.

 

[azOOOOOma]

One thing to remember with conflict is avoiding it becoming a distraction that is on your mind for your next dispatch where you need to be 100% focused. It simply isn’t worth getting worked up about tickets/loud music and then something going wrong during dispatch.

Walk away. Decompress. Lock yourself away in the rear cab, toilet or bunker and prioritise your wellbeing.

When it comes to tickets I just scan as many as I can to stop any undue refunds being made from ‘unused’ tickets. It can save a lot more revenue than you’ll ever get by putting yourself at risk trying to put a ticket irregularity right to some group of people with zero respect for anything or anyone.

Laura x