Train crew actions: Passengers refusing to pay/get off train.

[LowLevel]

Are the Travel Safe staff trained up to do this, out of interest?

No, some have been trained but they're not accredited at the moment so can't do it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm firmly of the believe in society that we've gone too far in regulating unpleasant behaviour and that unpleasant behaviour deserves unpleasant consequence sometimes delivered swiftly and unexpectedly.

Totally agree. The old sanction of being thrown off/out and having to either fund an expensive taxi or walk home is a pretty good punishment compared to being asked for what is guaranteed to be a fake address.

More should be made of such wonderful locations as Cheddington (though to be fair serious ASB is pretty rare on the civilised south WCML).

 

[43066]

No, some have been trained but they're not accredited at the moment so can't do it.

Thanks. Explains whey they’re often keener to get rid of people by putting them onto trains than taking them off!

 

[jon0844]

Are you absolutely sure that TOC-employed civilian staff have been authorised to physically chuck someone out of a station? I find that most surprising if they are!

Yes.

They can eject people from a station using force in order to prevent them travelling, but cannot use force on people leaving (i.e. detaining them) is my understanding.

 

[Starmill]

Southeastern's security staff (not conductors, station assistants etc) are regularly found to remove people from trains and leave them on the public highway, telling them they're forbidden to return to the station, as well as the ones on Northern and Merseyrail. There's possibly a handful of others. If the person has no ticket and has refused to pay for one they are able to rely on the Byelaws to do so.

 

[Krokodil]

Yes.

They can eject people from a station using force in order to prevent them travelling, but cannot use force on people leaving (i.e. detaining them) is my understanding.

Wasn't there something in the RoRA 1889 about powers to detain?

 

[Starmill]

Also, most operators have some kind of internal reporting for fare evaders. CrossCountry probably have one which you can ask about how to access it. This way, any repeat offenders are likely to be scuppered eventually.

 

[jon0844]

Wasn't there something in the RoRA 1889 about powers to detain?

There are lots of powers, but I think rail workers, shop staff and the like are all told by their employers not to get involved regardless of what powers they might have in law. Staff want to go home to their family, not end up in hospital or dead.

In the case of the railway, there's a definite shortage of BTP officers and they clearly have many other things to deal with - so employing 'bouncers' seems like a logical option to re-educate people that you can't just push through and do what you want, shouting and threatening to make staff back off.

But I think the railway would need to hire a lot more of these officers, and wonder if GB Rail would be interested in funding such staff when they'll be having to look at ways to save money.

Personally, you just need to have enough people to get the message out there that you won't get away with it. Same as I expect in the future we might see some shops deciding that they are going to stop people leaving with goods. I've seen many videos of people (sometimes security, often members of the public, sometimes shop managers) going after someone and putting them on the floor and taking back what they were trying to walk out with. They don't necessarily detain the individual as that opens up a can of worms, but if people realise they're going to be attacked and leave empty handed then maybe they'll think twice and I think that's what's needed.

What to do with the large gangs than ransack an Apple store or a supermarket is another matter, and one where the police should be getting involved.

 

[Chriso]

Cross country used to be so hot on tickets and now they just don’t seem to bother

 

[AverageJoe]

I used to have issues when i was a tram driver DOO and people would just stand holding the doors open. It’s not just youths.
I’ve had adults do it when their friend was in a shop across the road and they didn’t want to wait the 15 minutes for the tram behind.

It would infuriate me, but it’s a battle I couldn’t win. Even if it was someone I could physically throw off the tram it would just end up with me losing my job or being locked up and them as usual getting away with it.

What I would do, rightly or wrongly is make a PA to the passengers on the tram along the lines of “I apologise for the delay folks, as you have probably seen there is someone preventing me from closing the doors as they don’t seem to care in the slightest that you all have somewhere to be. Once the person decides I can do my job then I will get us on the move”.

More often than not someone bigger than them would get those doors closed sharpish. I did once see one of the culprits do a superman out of the tram doors which I found rather entertaining.

Not endorsing this btw, but it was a small win now and then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's like the bus "newspaper method". Engine off, newspaper out, wait for the problem to be resolved by other passengers. Works very well, though with hybrid and stop/start buses the "engine off" bit is no longer quite as noticeable and so a PA announcement, where fitted, may be necessary.

 

[michael74]

Sometimes I think the guards aren’t interested in the confrontation???

You are spot on, no, I am not interested in the confrontation. I am not paid to be confrontational.

 

[Bogallan]

Have to agree with all the comments about not delaying the train over a revenue matter. Trouble is, passengers seated nearby often take an interest in the matter being discussed and if they see the guard give in and simply walk off without taking action then they feel rightly aggrieved that they have paid, so why is the miscreant getting away with it? My action in these circumstances is to issue a “Penalty Warning” ticket (value £0.00 so shows up as a zero fare on your balance at the end of your shift- which I account for by writing “1x zero fare = 1 x Penalty Warning“. The Penalty Warning ticket doesn’t mean a thing in reality, but at least it shows other passengers I have issued a ticket of some sort, with a message I say out loudly, so other passengers can hear clearly :- “Here is your penalty ticket.” Then I carry on my revenue duties, hoping the other passengers are somewhat satisfied. Here’s one such ticket I issued in London Midland days for info.

 

[43066]

You are spot on, no, I am not interested in the confrontation. I am not paid to be confrontational.

Indeed. People who are “interested in confrontation” would have completely the wrong temperament for the guard role.

 

[Bedwyn32]

All I do as a commercial guard in SWR is I ask if they are going to pay and if they say no. I walk away from them and report it on our fair evasion app with the head code and a description of the passenger.

 

[bramling]

Indeed. People who are “interested in confrontation” would have completely the wrong temperament for the guard role.

The railway does need to do more to go after the “not gonna pay, what you gonna do?” types.

Whilst one can understand it isn’t the role of the guard nor gateline staff to be engaging with these types, this doesn’t mean it should be left unchallenged.

I’d like to see more of the BTP-assisted stings at places where this sort of thing is common. There’s a bit too much of the going for low-hanging fruit, for example dopey students on expired railcards, and that sort of thing. Not saying that stuff shouldn’t be pursued, more that the balance needs to tip towards some of the miscreant types.

 

[Horizon22]

The railway does need to do more to go after the “not gonna pay, what you gonna do?” types.

Whilst one can understand it isn’t the role of the guard nor gateline staff to be engaging with these types, this doesn’t mean it should be left unchallenged.

I’d like to see more of the BTP-assisted stings at places where this sort of thing is common. There’s a bit too much of the going for low-hanging fruit, for example dopey students on expired railcards, and that sort of thing. Not saying that stuff shouldn’t be pursued, more that the balance needs to tip towards some of the miscreant types.

It's all a question of resources really to tackle this behaviour. And actually going beyond this it seems to be more indicative of a wider social and economic problem - look at the substantial rise in shoptlifting and the lack of prosecutions as a comparison.

 

[Krokodil]

Being seen to tackle the issue is important. If other passengers see that fare evaders are dealt with robustly it acts as a deterrent. Sometimes that might just involve the guard giving someone a scolding and maybe a few threats about RPIs issuing penalty fares, even if nothing actually gets done it creates an impression in the mind of the other passengers. Otherwise the occasional non-payer being lifted by BTP (in the locations where they can promptly be summoned) creates an impression of order. Chasing after every last fare would cost more than it recovers, it's more important to create the illusion that consequences are likely so that most passengers pay willingly. Otherwise you end up with anarchy (as we're now seeing in retail).

 

[43066]

The railway does need to do more to go after the “not gonna pay, what you gonna do?” types.

Whilst one can understand it isn’t the role of the guard nor gateline staff to be engaging with these types, this doesn’t mean it should be left unchallenged.

I’d like to see more of the BTP-assisted stings at places where this sort of thing is common. There’s a bit too much of the going for low-hanging fruit, for example dopey students on expired railcards, and that sort of thing. Not saying that stuff shouldn’t be pursued, more that the balance needs to tip towards some of the miscreant types.

I certainly don’t disagree with this. I’d be in favour of more widespread training up of “enforcement officer” type grades to accompany RPIs, as Southeastern REOs do on occasion. That way anyone refusing to play ball during an inspection can be asked to leave the train, and there is immediate physical backup to ensure compliance. Much better that this is performed by a specific, dedicated grade, rather than guards and platform staff being left to make empty threats.

Full blown sting operations are a good idea when supported by BTP - I’ve seen a few at Hither Green, for example, where everyone is required to walk through a knife hoop and past drug sniffer dogs! These are very resource intensive, of course, but can be generate excellent results when targeted sensibly.

 

[Meerkat]

Now so many staff have body worn video are stills taken for a rogues gallery? Train passengers are often regulars at one end or the other and could then be banned from the railway which would be inconvenient.

 

[transportphoto]

Now so many staff have body worn video are stills taken for a rogues gallery? Train passengers are often regulars at one end or the other and could then be banned from the railway which would be inconvenient.

My next question is how do you enforce the ban? Another Mexican stand off as they refuse to leave the train?

 

[jon0844]

Now so many staff have body worn video are stills taken for a rogues gallery? Train passengers are often regulars at one end or the other and could then be banned from the railway which would be inconvenient.

There are strict rules on the use of body worn camera footage so unless there's an interaction with staff that involves them pressing record to save a section of footage, my guess would be no.

 

[Meerkat]

My next question is how do you enforce the ban? Another Mexican stand off as they refuse to leave the train?

The concept relies on them repeating, so you can have BTP waiting for them at the station, or on the train waiting for them to play up again. Highly publicised cases to create some deterrence.

There are strict rules on the use of body worn camera footage so unless there's an interaction with staff that involves them pressing record to save a section of footage, my guess would be no.

Surely record would have been pushed by the point you get to a refusal to leave the train?

 

[43066]

The concept relies on them repeating, so you can have BTP waiting for them at the station, or on the train waiting for them to play up again. Highly publicised cases to create some deterrence.

How are BTP supposed to lie in wait for people on an open system, carrying millions of people daily, where tickets can be bought totally anonymously (and aren’t required to gain entry at the majority of locations)?

 

[Meerkat]

How are BTP supposed to lie in wait for people, on an open system, carrying millions of people daily, where tickets can be bought totally anonymously?

That is why I was asking whether there was a rogues gallery to look for patterns and a handful of repeat offenders who can be targeted, concentrating on those who are abusive to staff.
Bit like how TfL go after individuals.

If they have actually committed an offence by refusing to pay/ID/leave then they can presumably be arrested? Decent chance that some of them are faces the local plod recognise and would be glad to assist them collect a conviction.

Personally I think anyone abusing staff should be on wanted posters, or the social media equivalent. Staff must be backed up if they are expected to keep working.

 

[43066]

That is why I was asking whether there was a rogues gallery to look for patterns and a handful of repeat offenders who can be targeted, concentrating on those who are abusive to staff.
Bit like how TfL go after individuals.

If they have actually committed an offence by refusing to pay/ID/leave then they can presumably be arrested? Decent chance that some of them are faces the local plod recognise and would be glad to assist them collect a conviction.

Personally I think anyone abusing staff should be on wanted posters, or the social media equivalent. Staff must be backed up if they are expected to keep working.

Unless you have some kind of facial recognition CCTV system that alerts the police as soon as someone enters the railway, I just don’t see any way of enforcing it (maybe that will come one day). Nobody is required to present ID to purchase a train ticket, or to board a train. A “rogues gallery” wouldn’t be much use at a London terminal where one or two staff monitor gatelines through which tens of thousands of people pass per hour.

I don’t disagree with the idea of permanently banning serious/repeat offenders from the railway, in the way airlines do, but I just can’t see how this is achievable in an open system.

 

[virgintrain1]

Might be an unpopular opinion but I make full use of my byelaw powers of removal and detention. If all other tactics have failed, I will make a dynamic risk assessment for each situation. Like some have mentioned the surprise factor generally works well and I will never cause a delay for a ticket issue. My TOC has a fairly grey area when it comes to using powers but doesn't explicitly prohibited unlike a lot of TOCs I believe. Of course it's neither expected or encouraged. Of course routes where you have longer between stops gives you more time to actually check name and address details and let them dig themselves any holes etc or have time to ask BTP/RPI or Security to meet and next stop.

However, when you are assertive with your instructions I generally find the vast majority of people that you remove from trian will do so without the need to encourage via hands on.

Maybe it's a moral thing, but I don't take any nonsense, it's about fairness and avoiding the low handing fruit situation with fare evasion.

The longer you do the job the more you will develop your own tips and tricks in getting payment or correct details. Basically anyone with a smartphone will probably have something with their name on, apple ID etc.

 

[Horizon22]

How are BTP supposed to lie in wait for people on an open system, carrying millions of people daily, where tickets can be bought totally anonymously (and aren’t required to gain entry at the majority of locations)?

BTP can issue Withdrawal of Implied Permission (WIPs) to repeat offenders of ASB at stations / trains but I really don't know the effectiveness because as you say it is an open network. But if they are caught, the consequences are much more severe which is my understanding.

 

[Krokodil]

I don’t disagree with the idea of permanently banning serious/repeat offenders from the railway, in the way airlines do, but I just can’t see how this is achievable in an open system.

This has been very effective, though fare evasion on its own isn't considered enough to issue a notice.

https://www.btp.police.uk/news/btp/news/appeals/new-scheme-announced-to-tackle-anti-social-behaviour-at-north-wales-railway-stations/

Those who persistently act in an anti-social manner in these areas will be handed a notice which will ban them from hanging around the station. Those who breach the notice will be liable for arrest.

Basically to breach the "loitering" byelaw, you have to remain at the station after being told to leave. By issuing a "Withdrawal of Implied Permission" in writing, entering the station automatically creates a breach. A list of who is banned is circulated among the staff (along with identifiable CCTV stills or mugshots if available) and they report any breaches, with the evidence being captured on bodyworn or station CCTV and the offender ending up in court. Persistent anti-social behaviour offenders end up with a Criminal Behaviour Order (older readers may remember these as ASBOs) and breaching these can (and does) end up with time in prison.

For fare evasion, the traditional approach of periodically deploying RPIs on a block and issuing Penalty Fares is the best approach, with BTP supporting if passengers are likely to be non-compliant. Frequently enough that the chance of being stung for £50/£100 plus the fare is greater than the sum total of fares evaded over time so that it amounts to a real deterrent.

 

[Segedunum]

BTP can issue Withdrawal of Implied Permission (WIPs) to repeat offenders of ASB at stations / trains but I really don't know the effectiveness because as you say it is an open network. But if they are caught, the consequences are much more severe which is my understanding.

From my experience, when encountering someone with a WIP, they were often daft enough to do something warranting an MG11, so you'd end up with a hefty paper trail when they eventually got unlucky and were caught by the police.

Even if they didn't, any sighting was quickly circulated amongst staff and forwarded to our Legal Department. It wasn't exactly a solution to the problem (and it was quite a task to get a WIP issued) but it certainly did make the person's life a heck of a lot more awkward.