Train crew actions: Passengers refusing to pay/get off train.

[SemaphoreJoy]

Hello,

I have recently been successful in applying for a train manager role with XC.

I was just wondering in general what you do, or what you *actually* do if someone just gets on a train with no ticket and no intention to pay, like if they literally ignore you. I can assume there is a "hands-off" policy and I can't imagine a train would just be stopped till the matter is resolved as this would cause sever issues across the line. Is it a case of call BTP to see if they can meet you at a future station or any other tactics?

I am aware this will be covered in training, and I am not worried about it overall, just curious as to whether different operators may have different policies and practises. Apologies if this is the wrong section of the forum, I was unsure.

 

[generalnerd]

Congratulations on getting a job as a train manager. From a passenger experience, they carried on until the next station when the btp boarded the train and escorted the passenger off. I would assume if the passenger was just stropping and wasn’t a threat they would wait but if the passenger was deemed a threat to other passengers, I would assume they would wait for police. An injured passenger is going to create even more issues for the line than getting a disorderly passenger off the train (probably)

 

[Towers]

Basics for any guard should include that you never delay trains over a ticket issue - as you rightly say, it just isn’t worth the expense and disruption that it causes!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There is also the principle of the three fails. BTP involvement shouldn't even be considered unless the non-payer has committed the three fails: failure to offer up for inspection a valid ticket when asked to do so, failure to purchase a suitably valid ticket when offered the opportunity to do so, and failure to provide basic personal details when requested. Given how thinly spread BTP are nowadays that still won't guarantee attendance for what is essentially a civil matter unless there are aggravating circumstances.

In practice it's becoming much like the epidemic of shoplifting, those who are brazen enough to try it on will tend to get away with it until they become the subject of a sting operation. These don't happen often. As a guard/conductor/TM it's totally not worth taking it personally and digging your heels in. Equally the much wider use of ticket barriers at stations compared to say 20 years ago does help to redress the balance a little; if only all gate attendants could work to a decently high standard. Sigh.

 

[winks]

Basics for any guard should include that you never delay trains over a ticket issue - as you rightly say, it just isn’t worth the expense and disruption that it causes!

Not true on SWR.

I was on a train last month and a guard held the train at Basingstoke until the passenger left the train as he had no ticket. The guard made an announcement as the train left apologising which resulted in a minor delay - I think it was 4 minutes.

 

[transportphoto]

I was on a train last month and a guard held the train at Basingstoke until the passenger left the train as he had no ticket. The guard made an announcement as the train left apologising which resulted in a minor delay - I think it was 4 minutes.

This is frowned upon by most train operating companies. The cost of the delay will always be more than the lost revenue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Feb 2025 ==

In practice it's becoming much like the epidemic of shoplifting, those who are brazen enough to try it on will tend to get away with it until they become the subject of a sting operation. These don't happen often. As a guard/conductor/TM it's totally not worth taking it personally and digging your heels in.

The other consideration is what support does the Guard actually have? Realistically they’re by themselves. Revenue Protection Officers here and there but difficult to access/call upon.

 

[HeritageSussex]

I once sat on a stationary train for about 5 minutes while the Scotrail guard attempted to get a young man to pay for a ticket or leave. This was just after opening the doors at a minor station on the route. The guard had tried to inspect his ticket just before the stop as the youth had been on the train since a previous station. The guard then refused to dispatch the train, and instead stood and discussed with the youth who was not interested in even speaking about it. Eventually, another passenger frustrated by the growing delay hauled the young man out his seat and threw him out onto the platform, and stood in the doorway to stop him getting back on while the guard closed the doors.

I just didn't see the point in any of it. It didn't reflect well on the guard, caused delay, abandoned someone at a stop where another train might not call for an hour and the passenger who took matters into his own hands, to get the train moving, could have been charged with assault. Got to be sensible about what is best for all involved. I was getting to the point where I was considering paying the required ticket just to get the train going.
I understand that dealing with fare dodgers on a daily basis must be very frustrating but perhaps other people on the train will miss connections, meetings, events - unless you know the timetable has the padding to allow a short delay.

 

[Towers]

I once sat on a stationary train for about 5 minutes while the Scotrail guard attempted to get a young man to pay for a ticket or leave. This was just after opening the doors at a minor station on the route. The guard had tried to inspect his ticket just before the stop as the youth had been on the train since a previous station. The guard then refused to dispatch the train, and instead stood and discussed with the youth who was not interested in even speaking about it. Eventually, another passenger frustrated by the growing delay hauled the young man out his seat and threw him out onto the platform, and stood in the doorway to stop him getting back on while the guard closed the doors.

I just didn't see the point in any of it. It didn't reflect well on the guard, caused delay, abandoned someone at a stop where another train might not call for an hour and the passenger who took matters into his own hands, to get the train moving, could have been charged with assault. Got to be sensible about what is best for all involved. I was getting to the point where I was considering paying the required ticket just to get the train going.
I understand that dealing with fare dodgers on a daily basis must be very frustrating but perhaps other people on the train will miss connections, meetings, events - unless you know the timetable has the padding to allow a short delay.

This is precisely what should be avoided! Backing yourself into a corner with “Get off or else” has all kinds of potential to go wrong, with the best case being a completely avoidable delay and the worst probably the guard being assaulted. Just no need for it!

 

[bramling]

This is precisely what should be avoided! Backing yourself into a corner with “Get off or else” has all kinds of potential to go wrong, with the best case being a completely avoidable delay and the worst probably the guard being assaulted. Just no need for it!

It can work, but there requires a level of situational judgement - which is, will the person decide to do one after a short time? Certainly it isn’t unheard of for drivers to decide they’re not having someone on board, but it’s generally easier for a driver to do this citing a potential safety issue rather than a guard over a revenue matter.

 

[Towers]

It can work, but there requires a level of situational judgement - which is, will the person decide to do one after a short time? Certainly it isn’t unheard of for drivers to decide they’re not having someone on board, but it’s generally easier for a driver to do this citing a potential safety issue rather than a guard over a revenue matter.

There is also the dreaded “duty of care” angle; in the example given above the poster describes the passenger in question as a “youth”. Forcibly detraining someone, particularly if they may turn out to be a juvenile with no means of payment, and stranding them in the middle of nowhere is generally not a clever move, even it may appear to be a “victory” at the time.

 

[43066]

Basics for any guard should include that you never delay trains over a ticket issue - as you rightly say, it just isn’t worth the expense and disruption that it causes!

Indeed. And the ones who do get into “Mexican standoffs” over ticketing issues generally aren’t very popular with their colleagues…

 

[ZFE95]

Lol if you're that bothered, you can tell them you're gonna delay everything & hope they don't call your bluff!!

But no, never worth entertaining!!

 

[NorthernTech]

I once sat on a stationary train for about 5 minutes while the Scotrail guard attempted to get a young man to pay for a ticket or leave. This was just after opening the doors at a minor station on the route. The guard had tried to inspect his ticket just before the stop as the youth had been on the train since a previous station. The guard then refused to dispatch the train, and instead stood and discussed with the youth who was not interested in even speaking about it. Eventually, another passenger frustrated by the growing delay hauled the young man out his seat and threw him out onto the platform, and stood in the doorway to stop him getting back on while the guard closed the doors.

I just didn't see the point in any of it. It didn't reflect well on the guard, caused delay, abandoned someone at a stop where another train might not call for an hour and the passenger who took matters into his own hands, to get the train moving, could have been charged with assault. Got to be sensible about what is best for all involved. I was getting to the point where I was considering paying the required ticket just to get the train going.
I understand that dealing with fare dodgers on a daily basis must be very frustrating but perhaps other people on the train will miss connections, meetings, events - unless you know the timetable has the padding to allow a short delay.

Unfortunately these days of wokeness and mobile phones recording your every move, this solution, as amazing as it was, is probably best avoided. I see people hopping on and off the stations with no barriers on the WCML and they ‘appear’ to have no ticket. They act suspicious on the train, and often stink of weed.. Sometimes I think the guards aren’t interested in the confrontation???

 

[transportphoto]

Sometimes I think the guards aren’t interested in the confrontation???

The job involves daily confrontation - but there’s always a risk vs benefit playoff. Knowing when to pick the battles it’s important.

 

[NorthernTech]

The job involves daily confrontation - but there’s always a risk vs benefit playoff. Knowing when to pick the battles it’s important.

I agree, but the rest of the people on the train are paying to be there! Some guards are titled ‘Revenue Protection Assistants’ are they not? My personal view is to show people that they can’t get away with no ticket travel. A slight delay to remove those not prepared to pay and think they can do what they want is setting a standard.

 

[43066]

I agree, but the rest of the people on the train are paying to be there!

Although they’re also paying to get to where they need to be on time, so won’t want to be late because the guard is arguing with someone over a fare worth a few quid.

My personal view is to show people that they can’t get away with no ticket travel. A slight delay to remove those not prepared to pay and think they can do what they want is setting a standard.

I understand the sentiment, but the reality is there’s little they can realistically do (they may get lucky if BTP are nearby, but that’s rare away from major stations). The days when guards could give miscreants a good hiding and sling them off the train by the scruff of their necks are long gone!

 

[SemaphoreJoy]

Some interesting points and observations. I don't think I would risk people missing connections, events, hospital trips etc just to have a stand off with someone who may well not have any money anyway. I recall news stories of bus drivers refusing to let people on for having no means to pay, and that person then assaulted in the middle of nowhere....not worth the headline.

My thought process is that there should be better tech/resources in place to stop people with no ticket getting on in the first place. 10 years in policing taught me a fair bit of pragmatism and that discretion is often the better part of valour.

Funnily enough a question on discretion was part of the interview!

Thanks all for your thoughts.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Some guards are titled ‘Revenue Protection Assistants’ are they not?

No, those are not Guards (or equivalent job title such as Conductor or Train Manager, who all come under the operational role of ‘Guard’ in the rulebook). Ticketing is just one element of the duties that make up a Guard’s job role.

The people you mention are Revenue Protection Assistants (other similar job titles swap the word Assistant for Inspector or Officer), and revenue protection is their primary role. They don’t have anything to do with the actual physical operation of trains, and will also do things such as revenue blocks on stations or provide additional support on gatelines.

I believe ScotRail have a Ticket Examiner role on their Driver Only Operated trains and one must be on board for the train to run (I’m sure someone can correct me if I’m wrong on that!), but again I believe they are solely revenue orientated and don’t have much - if any - operational input into the running of trains during the journey.

 

[Horizon22]

My thought process is that there should be better tech/resources in place to stop people with no ticket getting on in the first place. 10 years in policing taught me a fair bit of pragmatism and that discretion is often the better part of valour.

Increasingly there are gatelines are in place, but if they're not going to show a ticket to a guard/conductor, they're probably the sort of people who jumped the barriers anyway. Not sure what sort of tech you can implement to stop what is otherwise a relatively open network (and rightly so). There's not going to be airport style security.

All you can do is report with the description of the individual and what information you do know so that it gets logged. Eventually such people will be tracked through patterns of behaviour but it can take some time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Feb 2025 ==

I believe ScotRail have a Ticket Examiner role on their Driver Only Operated trains and one must be on board for the train to run (I’m sure someone can correct me if I’m wrong on that!), but again I believe they are solely revenue orientated and don’t have much - if any - operational input into the running of trains during the journey.

Southern OBSs perform a similar role as well as other customer service duties.

 

[43066]

10 years in policing taught me a fair bit of pragmatism and that discretion is often the better part of valour.

That will be useful experience to draw from. Plenty of former coppers on the railway!

 

[Krokodil]

It can work, but there requires a level of situational judgement - which is, will the person decide to do one after a short time? Certainly it isn’t unheard of for drivers to decide they’re not having someone on board, but it’s generally easier for a driver to do this citing a potential safety issue rather than a guard over a revenue matter.

Indeed, there are occasions where one can get away with it. You come to learn which parts of a route have a few minutes of slack. You also learn which bits of a journey are particularly time-critical - making a dozen Scotsmen miss their connection home won't be popular! And of course if the individual is intoxicated or aggressive then you've got a cast iron reason for holding the train there while waiting for police assistance.

 

[Towers]

I agree, but the rest of the people on the train are paying to be there! Some guards are titled ‘Revenue Protection Assistants’ are they not? My personal view is to show people that they can’t get away with no ticket travel. A slight delay to remove those not prepared to pay and think they can do what they want is setting a standard.

Unfortunately the only ‘standard’ that this behaviour sets is one which falls well below what TOCs expect of their frontline colleagues nowadays. That “slight delay” costs money, potentially hundreds of pounds per minute, including all the knock-on delays to anything else further down the line, and can end up being very costly indeed - a popular move it is not! It also substantially increases the likelihood of confrontation, which is the opposite of what employers want; there will be a conflict avoidance policy in force which very definitely will not advise entering into stand-offs with fare dodgers.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This is frowned upon by most train operating companies. The cost of the delay will always be more than the lost revenue.

Not to mention it’s disgustingly inconsiderate.

 

[jon0844]

It makes more sense to have suitable officers at stations to prevent people boarding trains in the first place. Travelsafe officers who have the power to remove people from a station, using appropriate force as required, are already 'surprising' the people who are currently roaming around doing whatever they want because they've learned that most staff will stand back and do nothing.

It's time to make them unlearn that belief, but delaying a train isn't a good option.

The same needs to happen in shops. More and more we're seeing members of the public stepping in when security staff won't intervene (because they don't want to get attacked) and while this obviously is risky for the people concerned, it shows that society has had enough and if the police won't act, others will.

Fortunately the police are now (for how long, who knows) clamping down on shoplifters but there's a long way to go. Shoplifting, general anti-social behaviour and fare evasion are all connected as it's a mindset that more and more people are into.

 

[stadler]

I no longer work on the railways but i used to be a Guard back in BR (NSE) days and my attitude was to just let it go and let them travel for free if they refuse to pay. There is just no point getting in to an argument or confrontation or holding up the train. It is not like it comes out of your wages so it is not the biggest issue. I would always try and sell the fare evaders a ticket and get them to pay but if they refused i would just give up and walk away. It is not worth arguing about.

If you hold the train until a fare evader gets off or until police arrive then you have a train full of annoyed passengers who are now being delayed. I am sure pretty much all passengers onboard would much rather someone gets to travel for free then their train getting delayed and being late to their destination or missing a connection. I know i would rather a fare evader getting away with it than my train being delayed. Holding trains just massively inconveniences everyone and now you have a train full of annoyed passengers. It is not worth it.

Also there is no point getting in to arguments or confrontations over tickets either. If they are getting very angry or agressive or argumentative then i would just walk away and leave it. It is just really not worth it to get in to a big confrontation over tickets.

I am sure Cross Country have their own policies and procedures. So they will probably advise more on what they think should be done in these situations during your training. Working as a Guard will mean it is certainly a situation that you will come across.

 

[Towers]

It makes more sense to have suitable officers at stations to prevent people boarding trains in the first place. Travelsafe officers who have the power to remove people from a station, using appropriate force as required, are already 'surprising' the people who are currently roaming around doing whatever they want because they've learned that most staff will stand back and do nothing.

It's time to make them unlearn that belief, but delaying a train isn't a good option.

The same needs to happen in shops. More and more we're seeing members of the public stepping in when security staff won't intervene (because they don't want to get attacked) and while this obviously is risky for the people concerned, it shows that society has had enough and if the police won't act, others will.

Fortunately the police are now (for how long, who knows) clamping down on shoplifters but there's a long way to go. Shoplifting, general anti-social behaviour and fare evasion are all connected as it's a mindset that more and more people are into.

Are you absolutely sure that TOC-employed civilian staff have been authorised to physically chuck someone out of a station? I find that most surprising if they are!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you absolutely sure that TOC-employed civilian staff have been authorised to physically chuck someone out of a station? I find that most surprising if they are!

There are people employed for that purpose at most bars and clubs, so I don't see why that would be so surprising. It's what is needed.

 

[RailEnt]

Hello,

I have recently been successful in applying for a train manager role with XC.

I was just wondering in general what you do, or what you *actually* do if someone just gets on a train with no ticket and no intention to pay, like if they literally ignore you. I can assume there is a "hands-off" policy and I can't imagine a train would just be stopped till the matter is resolved as this would cause sever issues across the line. Is it a case of call BTP to see if they can meet you at a future station or any other tactics?

I am aware this will be covered in training, and I am not worried about it overall, just curious as to whether different operators may have different policies and practises. Apologies if this is the wrong section of the forum, I was unsure.

You will have to keep your head down and pretend you do something about. In reality you won’t do anything, just maybe, pretending that you are on a phone call to report the passenger. If you start delayed the train due to a ticket you will be more in the managers office than on trains. I know its now fair towards the rest of the paying customers, but unfortunately this is how it works. TOC’s want the train out the way, not blocking the whole line.
And XC has a lot a fare dodgers and also a lot of entitled passangers who will try to sit in first class without a valid ticket, however most train managers at XC don’t bother checking tickets.
This is the reality.

 

[LowLevel]

Are you absolutely sure that TOC-employed civilian staff have been authorised to physically chuck someone out of a station? I find that most surprising if they are!

Sure, Northern and Merseyrail to name a couple and there's more have BTP accredited private security contractors whose role includes physical removal of uncooperative belligerents.

There's nothing more satisfying than watching a "what are you going to do/if you keep talking to me I'm going to hurt you" type individual receive an unexpected comeuppance.

I'm firmly of the believe in society that we've gone too far in regulating unpleasant behaviour and that unpleasant behaviour deserves unpleasant consequence sometimes delivered swiftly and unexpectedly.

 

[43066]

Sure, Northern and Merseyrail to name a couple and there's more have BTP accredited private security contractors whose role includes physical removal of uncooperative belligerents.

There's nothing more satisfying than watching a "what are you going to do/if you keep talking to me I'm going to hurt you" type individual receive an unexpected comeuppance.

I'm firmly of the believe in society that we've gone too far in regulating unpleasant behaviour and that unpleasant behaviour deserves unpleasant consequence sometimes delivered swiftly and unexpectedly.

Are the Travel Safe staff trained up to do this, out of interest?