Train company NOT booking rail replacement buses

[Fenchurch SP]

Can season ticket holders claim compensation when this happens? Southern's website mentions refunds for day ticket holders but nothing about seasons.

 

[Alex C.]

Looks like the buses which were planned to operate between Andover & Gillingham have all been cancelled leaving just a random nonstop Gillingham - Basingstoke bus. So even Salisbury has been cut off from the London direction (requires use of the GWR replacement buses towards Southampton).

SWR, just a wonderful advertisement for the motor industry.

No doubt the hourly Activ8 service bus between Andover & Salisbury has taken up a few displaced rail passengers

(Edit - when I alighted at Andover earlier there was a large queue of unhappy passengers waiting for SWR funded taxis, with a couple members of staff trying to keep the peace. Slightly higher as I was half expecting the station to be unstaffed and passengers left to try and work out what to do)

Those GWR buses were ridiculous - single decker buses with no toilet facilities for a journey of ~100 minutes. On departing from Warminster some passengers were advised they could stand (or be left behind). Even with standees, some were still left behind. On arrival at Salisbury, they then said standing wasn't permitted to Southampton - luckily, enough passengers got off that seats were free'd up for standees but the queue of ~30 (that I counted) passengers wanting to board the bus were disappointed when only 1 of them made it on. The staff at Salisbury looked very stressed.

 

[Kite159]

Those GWR buses were ridiculous - single decker buses with no toilet facilities for a journey of ~100 minutes. On departing from Warminster some passengers were advised they could stand (or be left behind). Even with standees, some were still left behind. On arrival at Salisbury, they then said standing wasn't permitted to Southampton - luckily, enough passengers got off that seats were free'd up for standees but the queue of ~30 (that I counted) passengers wanting to board the bus were disappointed when only 1 of them made it on. The staff at Salisbury looked very stressed.

I bet they were stressed. Will anything change? Nope

SWR might put out a statement if they get pressured by the media saying "blah blah blah, lessons will be learnt, not our fault no bus company wanted to help out for below market rate"

I dread to think how much taxpayer money they ended up splashing up the wall from yesterday with forking out for taxis due to their latest failings.

 

[infobleep]

I bet they were stressed. Will anything change? Nope

SWR might put out a statement if they get pressured by the media saying "blah blah blah, lessons will be learnt, not our fault no bus company wanted to help out for below market rate"

I dread to think how much taxpayer money they ended up splashing up the wall from yesterday with forking out for taxis due to their latest failings.

I take it the DfT pays for the taxis?

 

[riceuten]

I do rather think, like with station closures, some TOCs are pushing the limits further and further to save cash. I have - more than once - had a TOC refuse to reimburse me for a taxi home when they failed to run "because I did not seek authorisation" from an empty station, and when their customer care line had long since closed.

 

[AdamWW]

I do rather think, like with station closures, some TOCs are pushing the limits further and further to save cash. I have - more than once - had a TOC refuse to reimburse me for a taxi home when they failed to run "because I did not seek authorisation" from an empty station, and when their customer care line had long since closed.

I hope that you challenged that.

 

[riceuten]

I hope that you challenged that.

I did, but it took way more effort - 3 or 4 phone calls and elevation to a manager - to rectify it. The CS staff kept repeating the mantra "you should have sought authorisation" - and that "there should have been staff at the station" (there weren't, or they weren't answering the door). I ended up faxing the TOC's HQ because they weren't passing the complaint on and wouldn't elevate it to a manager (presumably to cover their mistake)

 

[AdamWW]

I did, but it took way more effort - 3 or 4 phone calls and elevation to a manager - to rectify it. The CS staff kept repeating the mantra "you should have sought authorisation" - and that "there should have been staff at the station" (there weren't, or they weren't answering the door). I ended up faxing the TOC's HQ because they weren't passing the complaint on and wouldn't elevate it to a manager (presumably to cover their mistake)

I'm glad you got there though of course it shouldn't have been that hard.

 

[Busman]

*My original question was already answered.

 

[Horizon22]

GTR are posting they are expecting very limited rail replacement across their network on Sunday, with “bus operators being unable to provide the usual amount of drivers”.

Can you tell me more about the incident?

Staff work closely with Network Rail to plan for works taking place. Unfortunately, in this case, the expected availability of rail replacement drivers is substantially less than needed to run a full service. Along with the wider industry, there has been a reduction in the availability of rail replacement drivers in recent years.

Staff have explored cancelling the engineering works with Network Rail, alongside other alternative journey options to provide a service, but regrettably, have not been able to find any viable options to run the whole timetable.

 

[markymark2000]

GoAhead are the issue here. They clearly don't have enough suppliers across their systems and/or don't pay up enough to operators. They focus far too much on covering the work within the group or through a very few approved operators, it's no wonder this sort of thing is happening. I don't suppose by any chance that Thameslink has thought about working with East Midlands to see if Abellio can cover anything such as Luton - Hitchin given Luton and the Airport are also East Mids served stations (with the boldly named Luton Airport Express service) and East Mids are already sending their passengers to Hitchin? Abellio has a wider range of operator that they call upon such as Birmingham firms often head to cover WCML work and this isn't much further.

 

[riceuten]

GoAhead are the issue here. They clearly don't have enough suppliers across their systems and/or don't pay up enough to operators. They focus far too much on covering the work within the group or through a very few approved operators, it's no wonder this sort of thing is happening. I don't suppose by any chance that Thameslink has thought about working with East Midlands to see if Abellio can cover anything such as Luton - Hitchin given Luton and the Airport are also East Mids served stations (with the boldly named Luton Airport Express service) and East Mids are already sending their passengers to Hitchin? Abellio has a wider range of operator that they call upon such as Birmingham firms often head to cover WCML work and this isn't much further.

What fresh hell is this - private sector companies working together ? Where's the profit/bottom line ?

 

[Kite159]

Is it simply a case that the Bus/coach operators are turning down the work as the TOCs are not offering enough money?

 

[Edsmith]

Is it simply a case that the Bus/coach operators are turning down the work as the TOCs are not offering enough money?

I think it's usually a case of not being able to get enough drivers and many other countries have similar driver shortages, largely a legacy of the pandemic.

 

[RT4038]

Is it simply a case that the Bus/coach operators are turning down the work as the TOCs are not offering enough money?

There will be some of this, no doubt. (There will always be tension between those paying out and those receiving!). There is also a shortage of drivers, and I suspect that expiry of CPC cards will be a factor here.

 

[markymark2000]

I think it's usually a case of not being able to get enough drivers and many other countries have similar driver shortages, largely a legacy of the pandemic.

That is just false. That is the easy excuse to use by the providers because it gets rid of all blame on them and no one questions it. I would put money on the fact that I could go out there now and find a number of buses available for this work. It would likely not be at a price that GoAhead liked though and that is the issue. GoAhead don't want to pay up. GoAhead also have a past for not asking operators to cover work.

See this from @pjnathanail last year.

https://twitter.com/PNathanail/status/1574144944847159311

We are a Go-Ahead London approved subcontractor for rail replacement with a depot less than an hour from Dartford and we weren't asked to assist today! Last time I was asked to do work for GAL, however, they weren't interested because I couldn't do it for the fixed rate on offer.

 

[Edsmith]

That is just false. That is the easy excuse to use by the providers because it gets rid of all blame on them and no one questions it. I would put money on the fact that I could go out there now and find a number of buses available for this work. It would likely not be at a price that GoAhead liked though and that is the issue. GoAhead don't want to pay up. GoAhead also have a past for not asking operators to cover work.

See this from @pjnathanail last year.

https://twitter.com/PNathanail/status/1574144944847159311

Of course it's not false, yes it may be used as an easy excuse on occasions but it's no good finding buses if you haven't got anyone to drive them.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Accepting that I retired from the rail industry some years ago, it was my understanding that Schedule 4 of passenger track access agreements included what was basically formulaic compensation for bus costs for typical engineering restrictions of use. (I am not talking about major blockades or extended line closures.) So far as I am aware these would last have been re-set under the 2018 Periodic Review for the Control Period 2019-24. Obviously a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then in terms of inflation, driver availability, expectations about 'accessible' vehicles, etc.

I can imagine that the compensation 'generated' from Network Rail may well be less tempting for bus suppliers these days and need a 'top up'. Presumably this would have to come from the DfT (for 'English' TOCs excluding those covered by London or Liverpool). It is not clear to me that GoAhead or any other TOC 'owner' really has any agency or skin in the game over all this.

Very simply, does anyone know if the DfT is offering/allowing any additional spending in this area?

Apologies if this structure has been replaced by new arrangements in recent years. Always willing to be corrected!

 

[Bikeman78]

If I recall correctly, they said that they attempted to book replacement buses and failed to do so, and argued that local buses wouldn't be able to cope and therefore arranging ticket acceptance with them wasn't sensible. (And that it was too late to cancel the engineering work).

I've seen this happen in Belgium. Train got stuck at some random small station. All the passengers bailed off and filled the local service bus to bursting point. There didn't seem to be any question of paying for the bus. Everyone just got on. Fortunately the railway reopened just before the bus departed so everyone got back on the train.

 

[The Planner]

Accepting that I retired from the rail industry some years ago, it was my understanding that Schedule 4 of passenger track access agreements included what was basically formulaic compensation for bus costs for typical engineering restrictions of use. (I am not talking about major blockades or extended line closures.) So far as I am aware these would last have been re-set under the 2018 Periodic Review for the Control Period 2019-24. Obviously a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then in terms of inflation, driver availability, expectations about 'accessible' vehicles, etc.

I can imagine that the compensation 'generated' from Network Rail may well be less tempting for bus suppliers these day and need a 'top up'. Presumably this would have to come from the DfT (for 'English' TOCs excluding those covered by London or Liverpool). It is not clear to me that GoAhead or any other TOC 'owner' really has any agency or skin in the game over all this.

Very simply, does anyone know if the DfT is offering/allowing any additional spending in this area?

Apologies if this structure has been replaced by new arrangements in recent years. Always willing to be corrected!

Same as now, bus compensation is paid on a mileage basis between the agreed points based on cancelled/cut short trains. Nothing else is added on.

 

[Bevan Price]

Of course it's not false, yes it may be used as an easy excuse on occasions but it's no good finding buses if you haven't got anyone to drive them.

Yes. like it or not, some bus operators do not have enough drivers to operate all their regular services. Although not as widely publicised as train cancellations, some operators drop mileage as there are no spare drivers to cover sickness adsence, or delays caused by traffic congestion. Many bus drivers were poached by higher wage offers from the road haulage industry during and after "Covid".

 

[markymark2000]

People are getting very mixed up between local bus drivers and drivers who would do rail replacement. They are generally very different pools of people. Rarely do local bus drivers end up doing rail replacement (partly for the reasons mentioned above). While yes it happens, it's much rarer that is being emphasised above. Rail replacement drivers, are normally either all rounders in the coaching world (private hire, schools, rail rep) or employed specifically for rail replacement (and take on other work if needed). There are a number of firms now who do just rail replacement or have dedicated rail replacement divisions and these drivers don't touch local bus. Arguing driver shortage is simply false. There are the buses and drivers available. You just have to look hard enough and pay a bit more than you would like sometimes.

 

[Edsmith]

Yes. like it or not, some bus operators do not have enough drivers to operate all their regular services. Although not as widely publicised as train cancellations, some operators drop mileage as there are no spare drivers to cover sickness adsence, or delays caused by traffic congestion. Many bus drivers were poached by higher wage offers from the road haulage industry during and after "Covid".

Exactly that and the 'dad's army' of semi retired drivers who would only do rail replacement has dwindled over the years.

 

[RJ]

That is just false. That is the easy excuse to use by the providers because it gets rid of all blame on them and no one questions it. I would put money on the fact that I could go out there now and find a number of buses available for this work. It would likely not be at a price that GoAhead liked though and that is the issue. GoAhead don't want to pay up. GoAhead also have a past for not asking operators to cover work.

See this from @pjnathanail last year.

https://twitter.com/PNathanail/status/1574144944847159311

I’ve just arrived in Bedford to run a trip to West Hampstead. The dead run was about 160 miles but that’s not a problem at all - the vehicle is to transfer to a closer depot after the jobs

 

[markymark2000]

I’ve just arrived in Bedford to run a trip to West Hampstead. The dead run was about 160 miles but that’s not a problem at all - the vehicle is to transfer to a closer depot after the jobs

RJ, as always, keeping rail passengers moving, whatever it takes.

 

[RJ]

RJ, as always, keeping rail passengers moving, whatever it takes.

Those buses will go to the ends of the earth to cover trips if requested!

People are getting very mixed up between local bus drivers and drivers who would do rail replacement. They are generally very different pools of people. Rarely do local bus drivers end up doing rail replacement (partly for the reasons mentioned above). While yes it happens, it's much rarer that is being emphasised above. Rail replacement drivers, are normally either all rounders in the coaching world (private hire, schools, rail rep) or employed specifically for rail replacement (and take on other work if needed). There are a number of firms now who do just rail replacement or have dedicated rail replacement divisions and these drivers don't touch local bus. Arguing driver shortage is simply false. There are the buses and drivers available. You just have to look hard enough and pay a bit more than you would like sometimes.

You’ve hit the nail on the head there really. I’ve been in that market for over 10 years and there was a good band of regulars who did weekday evening and weekend rail replacement. Some were office workers, some worked in retail roles, some had childcare duties during the day and some just liked the flexibility.

There are drivers who want to do rail replacement full time, but if there isn’t enough income to pay them the weekly hours they’re after, they’ll find something else to do. The market then loses people who have had investment in training and are really good at doing it.

There is another set of people who do rail replacement - those who work for the operators in non-driving roles. Management, schedulers, controllers etc who still have their PCV licences and can be available immediately to grab a vehicle, or do trips after their shift finishes.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I was on RRB bus yesterday with SE. Clearly not enough buses to cater for passengers spilling off 12-coach Javelin services.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I was on RRB bus yesterday with SE. Clearly not enough buses to cater for passengers spilling off 12-coach Javelin services.

Where and what time was that, if I may ask?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Where and what time was that, if I may ask?

Ashford (International) around 09.55. Went to the Folkestone MRC exhibition. Loads standing and some passengers left behind. I would have expected at least 2 double decker buses per train

We left early to come home. Glad we did. Return bus from Folkestone single decker, passengers left behind

 

[Trainguy34]

Ashford (International) around 09.55. Went to the Folkestone MRC exhibition. Loads standing and some passengers left behind. I would have expected at least 2 double decker buses per train

How odd, I might have saw you there! I was there from 12 till 1ish