Train companies being overly harsh when people make mistakes

[Tetchytyke]

How many staff checking tickets would be needed on each 12-car morning rush hour service between St Albans and St Pancras or Stevenage and St Pancras?

One or two, at most. I’d fairly often (<50% of the time) have my ticket checked by the guard when I commuted from Hemel Hempstead to Euston in London Midland days, on a 12-car 350 and with the guard also having door duties. They got a lot done between Watford and Euston.

That’s the funny thing about the railway, the TOCs lament that they lose £240m a year from fare evasion but argue that additional staffing is too expensive. You never see any staff on Thameslink and they wonder why doughnutting is through the roof.

They don’t have to check every ticket on every train, but there’s no reason why they couldn’t check most tickets on most trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or they fail to manage those staff properly so they actually bother to check tickets. These days on the south WCML it's almost never, and Southern OBSs appear to like standing around fiddling with their phones too.

 

[Starmill]

Then nobody would ever buy the correct ticket, and would wait for the rare occasion to be challenged, only to pay the fare they ought to have paid at the start.

I really think this is total hyperbole. ScotRail don't prosecute under the Byelaw or charge Penalty Fares. And yet, they have absolutely no difficulty in keeping ticketless travel rates the same sort of figures as any other operator. Nearly all services have a conductor or ticket examiner who is inspecting tickets. They are highly visible as well as conducting a check and this deters ticketless travel or other antisocial behaviour. Most larger stations have ticket gates. Edinburgh and a handful of other stations have a roving manual inspection before boarding if the service is leaving from somewhere without ticket gates. Specialists in revenue use intelligence gathered company-wide to target any fraud, which then goes to the Procurator Fiscal for likely prosecution. You can't be saying that this approach amounts to encouraging anyone not to buy the correct ticket? Is there room for improvement? Yes, there could be ticket gates at Partick or Paisley Gilmour Street. There could be a manual ticket inspection more often at Edinburgh for certain platforms. But it's not encouraging what you say.

 

[AlterEgo]

I really think this is total hyperbole. ScotRail don't prosecute under the Byelaw or charge Penalty Fares. And yet, they have absolutely no difficulty in keeping ticketless travel rates the same sort of figures as any other operator.

Do we have any recent data on that? The most recent I can find is from nearly ten years ago from Scotrail, which suggests 8.49% of travellers were ticketless, while Northern's latest data from 2024 has a rate of 3%.

Northern releases fare dodging statistics | Rail Technology Magazine

Northern Rail has released its annual fare-dodging figures, with the majority of people paying for their travel and millions of

www.railtechnologymagazine.com

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/foi-eir-release/2018/11/foi-18-03055/documents/foi-18-03055---scotrail-ticketless-travel-survey---2015-002/foi-18-03055---scotrail-ticketless-travel-survey---2015-002/govscot%3Adocument

 

[Starmill]

Do we have any recent data on that? The most recent I can find is from nearly ten years ago from Scotrail, which suggests 8.49% of travellers were ticketless, while Northern's latest data from 2024 has a rate of 3%.

Northern releases fare dodging statistics | Rail Technology Magazine

Northern Rail has released its annual fare-dodging figures, with the majority of people paying for their travel and millions of

www.railtechnologymagazine.com

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/foi-eir-release/2018/11/foi-18-03055/documents/foi-18-03055---scotrail-ticketless-travel-survey---2015-002/foi-18-03055---scotrail-ticketless-travel-survey---2015-002/govscot%3Adocument

So "nobody would ever buy the correct ticket" has now become 91.51% of people buy the correct ticket

 

[AlterEgo]

So "nobody would ever buy the correct ticket" has now become 91.51% of people buy the correct ticket

Well you caught me on the hyperbole, but still!

The only data I can find suggests the problem is more than twice as bad at Scotrail than it is at Northern, which I would consider roughly comparable with a mix or suburban and rural paytrain routes. But Scotrail don't seem to have released any stats for ten years.

 

[Starmill]

Or they fail to manage those staff properly so they actually bother to check tickets. These days on the south WCML it's almost never, and Southern OBSs appear to like standing around fiddling with their phones too.

Presumably those ones who are still referring to themselves as "conductors in dispute" are still undertaking their own personal work to rule policy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2024 ==

Well you caught me on the hyperbole, but still!

The only data I can find suggests the problem is more than twice as bad at Scotrail than it is at Northern, which I would consider roughly comparable with a mix or suburban and rural paytrain routes. But Scotrail don't seem to have released any stats for ten years.

Fair enough if your point was more along the lines of a PF scheme could push down on ticketless travel after other measures have already been implemented to their practical best. I personally wouldn't have any problems whatsoever if ScotRail lobbied successfully for a new statutory basis for a PF scheme in that case, if they can make the business case for it then so be it.

 

[Haywain]

Specialists in revenue use intelligence gathered company-wide to target any fraud, which then goes to the Procurator Fiscal for likely prosecution.

Have you any evidence of that actually happening?

 

[Kite159]

Have you any evidence of that actually happening?

I've heard stories in the media like someone getting caught out buying day returns from Haymarket to Edinburgh collecting them from a TVM at Bellshill & someone buying season tickets between South Gyle & Haymarket collecting them at one of the stations on the Bathgate route. Although I have no idea if they were genuine cases or just 'made up' by Scotrail to frighten people into buying tickets.

During the period that on board ScotRail staff were forbidden to do any sort of revenue checks due to Covid increasing the level of short faring (because why buy a ticket from say Pasley to Glasgow when you can save money with a Cardonald - Glasgow ticket to bypass the barriers etc).

Or they fail to manage those staff properly so they actually bother to check tickets. These days on the south WCML it's almost never, and Southern OBSs appear to like standing around fiddling with their phones too.

Similar to the likes of SWR when you get a service running nonstop between Clapham Junction & Basingstoke where the guard might only pop out to check 1st class and nothing else. For LNR for a service which is nonstop London to Leighton Buzzard (or even Milton Keynes) is there any excuse for the guard not to carry out a check, maybe starting from the front. Especially if the train goes from an open platform at Euston and Leighton lacking barriers.

 

[Starmill]

Have you any evidence of that actually happening?

There's definitely evidence in the public domain yes.

Phil Campbell, ScotRail Head of Customer Operations, said: “Tackling ticket fraud has always been a priority for ScotRail. It's a small minority of passengers who deliberately try to avoid paying the proper fare but it's honest, fare-paying passengers who bear the burden of lost investment in Scotland's Railway. The 42 new Revenue Protection Officers will be deployed around the rail network working from first trains to last. Those roles will really help support front line colleagues with ticket irregularity, fraud, and any difficult situations. We are determined to drive down ticketless travel, making the rail network a safer and more secure environment for customers and colleagues alike.”

ScotRail get tough on ticket fraud

ScotRail announces measures to fight ticket fraud by introducing 42 new revenue protection officers and ticket validation devices.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Earlier this week ScotRail announced their biggest ever fine of more than £3,000 after a fair-dodger spent 53 days avoiding paying for journeys.

The team at Edinburgh’s Waverley station were alerted to the repeated misuse of the Ticket On Departure option from a ticket machine in Bellshill station for journeys between Haymarket, Slateford and Curriehill into Edinburgh.

ScotRail tweeted of the latest incident: "Our stations are being monitored. A customer admitted to 17 instances of travel fraud, claiming to have boarded at Edinburgh Park, travelling into Edinburgh instead of Larbert.

The amount they had to pay was £753.10."

Fare dodger fined £750 after claiming to get on train 25 miles after they had

The cheeky customer admitted to 17 instances of travel fraud and will now have to pay £753.10.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

There are also cases of BTP assistance on ScotRail revenue protection.

 

[Haywain]

There's definitely evidence in the public domain yes.

My question was out of interest, rather than dispute but I still have doubts. The case you link to is an unnamed individual at an unnamed court, which is a little odd, but it is only one case. I'd like to see more evidence that they regularly pursue cases to the courts.

There are also cases of BTP assistance on ScotRail revenue protection.

That's nothing unusual anywhere on the network - it's about preventing crime and they know that fare dodgers often have something else, such as outstanding warrants, carrying drugs or something else.

 

[John Luxton]

What happens if booking office staff make mistakes and drop a passenger in it?

I had an incident in April 2022. One Sunday a day return to Manchester at the booking office in Liverpool Lime Street. Hopped on the first departure which was a Northern service and went off to Piccadilly.

Later that day I go back to Piccadilly and an EMR train runs in. I get on.

Just before Liverpool South Parkway where I tend to alight on return trips as it avoids the city centre in the evening I pull the ticket out and notice that it is endorsed Northen Only. Yes perhaps I should have checked a bit more closely when given the tickets but all I just noted which one was for outward and which one was return.

Fortunately no one came round for a ticket check and no questions were asked at the barrier. I hadn't set out to fiddle the system by saving a bit. I would have expected on requesting a return ticket for the booking clerk to give me an any operator ticket and not one with a restriction. I wasn't very happy - and would anyone have believed me? - No.

Since then I have made the point of asking for an any operator ticket - if more than one operator runs over a route I intend to use.

 

[Starmill]

My question was out of interest, rather than dispute but I still have doubts. The case you link to is an unnamed individual at an unnamed court, which is a little odd, but it is only one case. I'd like to see more evidence that they regularly pursue cases to the courts.

I think that the point is exactly that - it's really not up to them. They don't pursue people through the Courts, and yet if you go around committing fraud against them, you get the same treatment you would if you did it in any other walk of life. If you want more than the current criminal justice system delivers I'd say that's a problem with the Police, prosecutors and court's resources rather than the railway's. Presumably those cases were settled at the sums in question which is why there's no court record of a hearing.

 

[35B]

80 per cent of the traffic or 80 per cent of the revenue?

I can't see how you could cost-effectively achieve 80 per cent of the traffic on my local line (Leeds-Harrogate) with two stations within eight mins of Leeds.Not without parking the train up at Armley Jct!!

But actually the number in my head was 20 per cent. I don't think you would need anywhere near 80 to achieve the desired effect.

You move the odds. If people believe that they are more likely than not to have their ticket checked, they will adapt their behaviour. Some will stop using the train, others will buy tickets rather than risk being caught.

Combining on train enforcement with use of barriers will change the risks - especially if enforcement policy goes hard on short faring or doughnutting.

At the moment, my working assumption is that my ticket won't be checked on train. That's on an intercity TOC. For someone inclined to cheat the system, that's an invitation.

 

[Starmill]

That's nothing unusual anywhere on the network - it's about preventing crime and they know that fare dodgers often have something else, such as outstanding warrants, carrying drugs or something else.

Precisely so. But the point I was making is that the quotes suggest officers are looking at fraud offences, on top of the usual things.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What happens if booking office staff make mistakes and drop a passenger in it?

Likely still be deemed your fault, for not checking what you'd been issued with? Asymmetric consequences!

 

[Starmill]

But this is surely just another example of the way that things which would be treated seriously as a crime in any other situation, suddenly becomes less serious if it involves a car. It's not that rail users are treated especially harshly; it's that motorists can get away with murder (literally).

I think we could talk all day about the "minor" motoring offences where safety is genuinely impacted, and likely only prosecution would do to deter the behaviour again, but this is very very unlikely. Mostly I am not thinking things like loading on double yellow dashes / double red lines, though that still shouldn't be tolerated, but things like reversing into traffic, making a banned turning or u turn, using a non-complaint registration plate, running a vehicle with a serious mechanical defect, dangerous overtaking or close passes; I could go on and on...

 

[John Luxton]

Likely still be deemed your fault, for not checking what you'd been issued with? Asymmetric consequences!

Yes I should have checked but if one bought goods from a shop and it wasn't the correct item one or suitable for the purpose which the customer stated one could take it back as it would be the shop that would be considered responsible.

If more than one ticketing option exists the onus should be to offer the most widely accepted ticket first and state that other options are available.

It will never happen again as I make a point of stating any operator if I am on a multi operator route just as I have always stated "any time".