"Train Collision on level crossing, Newquay"

[Harbon 1]

Unless that is sarcasm, would you care to explain your wisdom with the rest of us?

Well from some other incidents, it always seems to be NRs fault even if the driver/crossing user is quite obviously at fault it's the way i see these things working

 

[DavidBrown]

'seriously' - If you don't know what red flashing lights mean, then you are an extreme danger on the road and should not, under any circumstances, drive a car. The difference between a steady red light (i.e. standard traffic signals) and flashing red (like level crossing signals and motorway gantries) is that ignoring flashing red lights is a much more serious offence and is much more likely to result in a criminal rather than a road traffic offence should a crash result.

I am a car driver. I don't live anywhere near any level crossings - the amount of times I drive across them can probably be counted on my hands, but even so I know EXACTLY what to do when I approach one, and what the light signals mean. Have you ever heard of something called the Highway Code?

Red means red, on a daaly basis i see probably 5+ sets of traffic lights. I should think thats a good national average. When i see green i go, yellow i slow, and red i stop.

Yellow does not mean slow, it means STOP unless it is unsafe to do so. Again, a concerning lack of knowledge on your part.

What im saying is, if 50% of the drivers on the road (and its probably more) are driving in a dream state wondering when their next facbook notification will come in. maybe just maybe it would be in the interest of safety to make the signalling on this in particular crossing (and st coloumb crossing) a little more obvious. On the trencreek crossing, it is blind for both the train driver and road users, There is no way for either to see what is potentially coming, due to hedges and houses. the rumble strips mentined earlier are as good for nothing worn out. incidentally There was also Building work going on 50 yards from the accident with guess what TRAFFIC LIGHTS and YELLOW flashing lights. Very easy to get confused and not see whats going on if your driving without due care and attention.

Having 50% of drivers driving in a dream state doesn't make it OK. Yes, we all occasionally have lapses of concentration, but if your mind is constantly elsewhere and not on the road ahead, then again you should NOT be driving.

The light signals on this crossing were recently upgraded, so the lights are now LED rather than the old bulbs. This makes them much brighter and clearer to see, even in direct sunlight. If the blind corner means that you can't see them before crashing into a train, then doesn't that indicate that you're going too fast for the road conditions? Oh, and you're also rather conveniently ignoring the warning road signs at either end of the crossing, so you know that it's there. Or don't you look at road signs either? Not only that, but if there was building work nearby, with extra traffic lights, then surely you should be paying even MORE attention, not less? I can't see any way you can get confused. I also think that this knowledge of the nearby building work confirms that you are local to Newquay, and know the woman involved. If you do know the woman, can you do us a favour and ask her never to drive again, before she does end up killing someone?

 

[chris89]

Furthering on what David Brown said.

I strongly suggest you read a copy of the Highway code 'Seriously' As if you didn't know what Flashing red lights mean, you are a danger to other road users. As they are not just used at Level crossings but at Fire Engine stations (depening on location) same for Ambulances etc. Also for Airfields, draw bridges and the like.

Red means red, on a daaly basis i see probably 5+ sets of traffic lights. I should think thats a good national average. When i see green i go, yellow i slow, and red i stop.

As said above i strongly suggest reading the highway code again. As what David said is correct. Yellow does not mean go slow. Unless it isn't safe to do so, you have to stop (Not do what a lot of drivers do and accelerate pass it to safe a minute or two)

Chris

 

[yorksrob]

Im glad everyone has posted back so quickly i thought i would wait weeks! Im not related and i dont know the lady in question. Youve cleard up a few points and questions. And yes i believe there should be a sole independant body to deal with any 'questioning' of accidents. ofcourse...thats common sense. agreed the 'accidents to needing and independant body' ratio is probably very low and it would be hard to find the funding.

Lets not forget i only question in the interest of safety and fair justice.

I have a point to make and reading everyones comments on here, i think we have all agreed that in general, as humans we dont drive like robots makeing perfect descisions for every mile of the day, and that goes for EVERYONE. There is also room for discussion about the lights, i believe a point was made earlier about the lights being changed for propper trafic lights. Red means red, on a daaly basis i see probably 5+ sets of traffic lights. I should think thats a good national average. When i see green i go, yellow i slow, and red i stop. This is a subcontious reaction to my years of driving that im sure we all have. However if you asked me about yellow flashing lights (the lower lights flash yellow, with a single red above). My instinctive reaction due to the common day to day viewing of yellow lights would be, workers in road, traffic cones. NOT ...STOP!!!
And there is a problem here, as the general road user drives around with the radio on thinking about what they are going to eat for lunch a moment in time such as seeing a light NEEDS to be a subcontious reaction. RED MEANS STOP. flashing lights mean ...WHAT. And its that moment that your subcontius reaction doesnt take place that is going to cause accidents. milliseconds can save lives.

Now im sure some of you will dissagree, i expect that. But read this carefully and put yourself in a drivers shoes. How often do you cross a level crossing..once a week? how often is that level crossing telling you stop...once a year? you cant expect a 'dumb driver' to have a subcontious reaction to those lights. as this lady mentioned, she never saw them/ She was in a 'dream state', driving and DID NOT have the subcontious reaction press her brakes in time. something im sure that if it was a RED traffic light would have MORE of a chance of happening. Now this isnt to say at all that driving without due care and attention shouldnt be considered her fault, or anyone elses fault for that matter.

What im saying is, if 50% of the drivers on the road (and its probably more) are driving in a dream state wondering when their next facbook notification will come in. maybe just maybe it would be in the interest of safety to make the signalling on this in particular crossing (and st coloumb crossing) a little more obvious. On the trencreek crossing, it is blind for both the train driver and road users, There is no way for either to see what is potentially coming, due to hedges and houses. the rumble strips mentined earlier are as good for nothing worn out. incidentally There was also Building work going on 50 yards from the accident with guess what TRAFFIC LIGHTS and YELLOW flashing lights. Very easy to get confused and not see whats going on if your driving without due care and attention.
this isnt my final point, but would it not be in the interest of safety, IF your going to drive a wall of metal into potentially oncoming traffic that will more than likelly be driving without due care and attention... would it not make sense to cater for these drivers? Yes it will cost money and yes IT WILL SAVE LIVES.

Is it up to the rail companys to pay for this? probably not. They hold higher rights from yester year to say that they have right of way over the road users so it would be mad to think that with evolution and democracy we could ever find a way to make them pay for it....that was sarcasm.

enjoy

If drivers are as incompetent as you seem to be suggesting, perhaps they should pay to remove the level crossings through their road tax.

 

[Captain Chaos]

If I was to be assessed and didn't know what a flashing Yellow means I would be taken off the train immediately and not allowed to take it anywhere.

I would suggest that if a driver does not know what a Hazard Warning Light pertaining to them means then they shouldn't be in charge of their car and therefore need to re-take their driving test. This stuff isn't rocket science, it's in The Highway Code and if you don't know it, then don't drive! Simples!

 

[YorkshireBear]

I nearly fell on the floor when i read some of the defences there... If someone doesn'tknow what red flashing lights mean they should be at home. You say she was in a dream state? soy our saying she was sleeping while overtired and not apying full attention? then she is stupid for driving yes stupid. If i jumped in my car while drunk i would be stupid, if you notice yourself falling asleep and dont stop you are stupid.... Tiredness kills.

 

[Nym]

OK, lets compare this, if I was taking a 130+ tonne vehicle out and didn't know what red ment, then ran through some lights and took out a load of other vehicles killing all the passengers and passengers in them, could I claim, "Oh sorry, didn't know what red ment", or, "Sorry, was a bit tired" and get out of it... Jog on!

PS: Yes you can have vehicles that heavy on the public road in the uk...

 

[Cliveblackpool]

There is also room for discussion about the lights, i believe a point was made earlier about the lights being changed for propper trafic lights. Red means red, on a daaly basis i see probably 5+ sets of traffic lights. I should think thats a good national average. When i see green i go, yellow i slow, and red i stop.

There are Amber lights not yellow ones on the road. (Yellow on the railway is different)
Quote Highway code.
''AMBER means ‘Stop’ at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that
to pull up might cause an accident.''
Full manual Barriers, which have stop signals for the trains, you can be waiting for a few minutes for the train to arrive.
These open crossings with low train speeds are designed to inconvenience the road user as little as possible. Amber 3 to 4 seconds. Flashing reds can be as little as 5 seconds before the train is on the crossing.
The train driver will see a white flashing light to show the red lights are flashing.

 

[jon0844]

Does anyone stop on amber these days? I'd imagine that over 50% of motorists accelerate when they see amber, not stop.

 

[90019]

There is also room for discussion about the lights, i believe a point was made earlier about the lights being changed for propper trafic lights. Red means red, on a daaly basis i see probably 5+ sets of traffic lights. I should think thats a good national average. When i see green i go, yellow i slow, and red i stop. This is a subcontious reaction to my years of driving that im sure we all have. However if you asked me about yellow flashing lights (the lower lights flash yellow, with a single red above). My instinctive reaction due to the common day to day viewing of yellow lights would be, workers in road, traffic cones. NOT ...STOP!!!
And there is a problem here, as the general road user drives around with the radio on thinking about what they are going to eat for lunch a moment in time such as seeing a light NEEDS to be a subcontious reaction. RED MEANS STOP. flashing lights mean ...WHAT. And its that moment that your subcontius reaction doesnt take place that is going to cause accidents. milliseconds can save lives.

If what you have put is genuinely true, my advice to you is either to hand in your licence and stop driving, or buy yourself a copy of this and read it thoroughly, as you are clearly lacking in knowledge of how to use the roads and are currently a danger to yourself and to other road users.

 

[gswindale]

Does anyone stop on amber these days?

It depends on whereabouts I am when the lights change. If I'm practically on them and going at a reasonable speed I'll go through. Otherwise I'll slow so as to pull up in front of the line rather than having half the car across it.

One junction near here, I know that if I'm practically on the supermarket roundabout waiting for the lights to change; then I've no chance of making it through. I don't generally get above 15mph in that case. No point. Just pootle up to the lights.

Probably in the minority here, but there you go.




Sent by Androids

 

[gswindale]

However if you asked me about yellow flashing lights (the lower lights flash yellow, with a single red above). My instinctive reaction due to the common day to day viewing of yellow lights would be, workers in road, traffic cones. NOT ...STOP!!!

Isn't it a single amber with two red lights above?
The presence of a yellow/amber light should immediately warn you of a hazard and you should be aware that you may need to be more cautious.

Now im sure some of you will dissagree, i expect that. But read this carefully and put yourself in a drivers shoes. How often do you cross a level crossing..once a week? how often is that level crossing telling you stop...once a year?

When I was learning to drive, quite frequently. That's what you get learning to drive through a town with 4 trains per hour.

Just out of interest, should I pay more attention to a flashing blue (police/fire/ambulance) light or a static blue (many lorries) one?



Sent by Androids

 

[Nym]

No vehicle other than Emergency Services in the UK will legally display any Blue Lights on their Vehicles.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

No vehicle other than Emergency Services in the UK will legally display any Blue Lights on their Vehicles.

Static blue lights are legal IIRC. The only restrictions are on blue beacons or special warning lamps.

 

[Bedpan]

Seriously?, any chance of posting a picture of these lights with the steady red on top and flashing yellows underneath, as I can't recall having ever come across them in 44 years of driving and 40 odd years of investigating motor insurance claims, and I'm a bit worried that I'm losing my memory.

 

[sprite]

Regarding the use of double flashing reds, is this not due to them being authorative over emergency service vehicles too? I.e. a police car on a call out can pass a traffic light at red, but not double flashing reds.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Does anyone stop on amber these days?

I do.

Unless, of course, the lights start changing at such a point that to brake would mean I would come to a stop straddling the junction!

When I was a learner driver, my instructor told me that a good way of judging an approach to lights ( and at the same time not forgetting to always ease off on the approach to lights ) is that when you get too close to stop if they start to change, tell yourself "committed" - otherwise instinctive braking when the amber appears might well result in you either straddling the junction when you come to a stop or losing enough speed that you might be sufficiently slow at clearing the junction that you would get a red light camera take your photo...

 

[Yew]

Interestingly some network rail trains have flashing blue lights.. Fortunately when the barriers are down its a railway, so they don't get in trouble for it

 

[jon0844]

When I was a learner driver, my instructor told me that a good way of judging an approach to lights ( and at the same time not forgetting to always ease off on the approach to lights ) is that when you get too close to stop if they start to change, tell yourself "committed" - otherwise instinctive braking when the amber appears might well result in you either straddling the junction when you come to a stop or losing enough speed that you might be sufficiently slow at clearing the junction that you would get a red light camera take your photo...

I do too, and ease off on approaching lights (perhaps not unattended crossings, mind) and I'm also looking behind me because if I do stop, I don't want to be hit from behind either.

But, I'd say more people speed up than make any attempt to slow down.

 

[bluenoxid]

I find it pretty funny reading this thread. Yes, I know what a flashing red means but the Level Crossings form no siginificant part of the test to drive on our roads.

From the report I read, the flashing red lights were being confused with flashing ambers where people were assuming that it meant to proceed with caution/significant obstruction may block the road (hence the barriers/trains/emergency vehicles).

We need to look hard. My advice would be to change the lights so that we have three red lights.

One flashes, two remain on and the amber performs its current function.

Obviously barriers and clear enforcement would help the case with these lights and remove any ability for someone to claim they did not see them.

Finally, I would ask how many of you are aware of Managed Motorways and the systems behind them. The money their speed cameras make appear to suggest that many don't.

Don't sit too smugly either, the insurance claim of her negligence will hit us all in the pockets.

 

[richw]

Static blue lights are legal IIRC.

Partially correct, it must not be visible from looking at the front of the vehicle it is fitted to.


Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[boing_uk]

Err... now let me think. The only places one is likely to find flashing amber signals are:

a) schools and crossing patrol sites
b) cattle crossings
c) controlled ped crossings
d) warning signs

All of those locations are what I would call momentary hazards and generally are used to highlight the hazard to motorists.

Flashing RED is there to highlight that it is an exceptional hazard, such as a level crossing, bridge, emergency services or runway such that it would be dangerous to proceed.

There is no need to change the signal appearance and IMO all drivers know that they must not cross and usually only plead ignorance when they get caught out.

I have a set of rising bollards in my area, and thus far they have caught out two drivers. One who was not paying attention and drove full speed in to the bollard, the other trying to sneak past a bus.

The bollards are in an area painted red, with big no entry signs and a large instruction sign on the associated island. And we have CCTV on it as well, so we can check each incident.

As for testing, look at the airline aviation industry. The manufacturers test their own equipment after an accident - do you call this in to question as well?

The fact is that the industry is best placed to test its own equipment. In all the more serious cases the industry has either found fault elsewhere, or indeed within its own ranks / equipment. There hasn't been a concerted cover up in the past, why would it for some divvy not paying attention to the road ahead?

It would also be nigh on impossible to cover up as I would expect that the data loggers are very much like our historical logs in traffic signal controllers, in that the data will be overwritten in time, but cannot be altered while in there.

The excuses I have heard over the years from motorists makes me very sceptical of any kind of equipment failure. Claims of two simultaneous conflicting greens, or signals appearing which could not (as they were not wired in and no lamps fitted) make one intensely sceptical. If the control equipment is as similar as ours, if its possible once, it can be repeated. If it cant be repeated, it cant happen -transient timing/switching faults cant occur. Indeed, in 15 years in my own industry I am aware of only 3 "wrong side" failures in that time, only one of which was a true green/green conflict (it was logged in the controller and was also repeatable). The other two were more complex but didn't involve true conflicts. Given the number of signal installations in the country, that should say something about the way these systems operate.

With the electromechanical systems it might have been more possible to have certain transient faults; with microprocessor systems it isn't because not only is everything logged, the watchdog is usually checking what the primary system is doing and if there is a mismatch, everything shuts off in 200ms.

Momentary failure on modern kit? I don't buy it for an instant.

 

[Essexman]

Does anyone know if this lady was prosecuted?

 

[seriously?]

so your saying your aware of 3 incidents that were at the fault of the rail service? or atleast the fault was to blame on the side of the rail service?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

so your saying your aware of 3 incidents that were at the fault of the rail service? or atleast the fault was to blame on the side of the rail service?

I suggest you read Boing's post a little more carefully...

 

[seriously?]

david, chriss etc. I was speaking from the mind of a 'common, dumb driver' not my personal opinion nor my personal experience. I was putting myself in a hypothetical situation...........
hope that clears up your point of me 'handing in my liscence'
I drove 10,000 miles in 2 months since november. I see these people everyday driving checking phones, putting lippy on. You name it iv seen it.

It seems like everyone these days is catering for the 'dumbies' in al walks of life. LIke we cant let our kids be kids anymore incase they hurt themsleves. Its sad. BUT in the case of stopping potential road accidents then yes, maybe it does pay to cater for the 'dumb drivers'. It will save lives.

i mentioned before, yes i am from the newquay area, and NO im not related nor do i know this lady.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suggest you read Boing's post a little more carefully...

gotcha... sorry its early

 

[bluenoxid]

I would still put in a constant red signal. Heavens, even the SPAD indicator has a constant red signal with two flashing reds.

 

[boing_uk]

For the amount of money it would cost to implement and no tangible benefit, what's the point?

For my area alone, with just one set for a fire station, you are looking at least £25k to change to the "new" system.

And are you suggesting that motorway gantry signals which operate on exactly the same principle (left:right wig wag) should also have a steady red?

I'm sorry but I just cannot see what the benefit of having an additional steady red signal would have, considering that for the vast majority of driver the meaning of a wig wag is blatantly clear.

It would be a significant legislatory and logistical 'mare to implement.

 

[deltic1989]

Firstly, welcome to the forum.



I speak for myself here, and a couple of other members who are either HGV drivers or van/small vehicle drivers. In the many tens of thousands miles I've covered as a driver on the roads, the sheer stupidity of some drivers is beyond belief. It is my opinion this accident was caused by the stupidity of the woman concerned. She was not paying attention approaching the level crossing. This was borne out by her statement saying she did not see the signs, and she did not see the flashing red lights at the crossing itself.

Myself and several other members who make a living driving various types of vehicles will be able to provide plenty of true stories about the chaos stupid drivers cause, mostly through in-attention. My worst delay caused by an accident ahead of me is 7 hours. That was someone who wasn't paying attention to the signs on a motorway, and at the very last second, veered across 2 lanes of traffic to get into the lane they needed and caused a 7 vehicle accident. The result was a complete closure of the carriageway while the emergancy services had to deal with the injured, and clean up the mess afterwards (not to mention the fuel spillage as well).







.

I'm newly qualified into the LGV driving game, and have been driving for an agency. I can agree that i see stupid things everytime I am on the road. But I fully expect that I have been seen doing things that other drivers may see as stupid or dangerous.

I had one experience on the M6 (I forget the junction number off the top of my head) where a woman missed her junction for whatever reason (I wasnt in her car i was in my truck so can't comment on why), decided to try and cut in front of me, I promptly dropped anchor, but couldnt slow down in time, clipped the rear offside of her car and she went spinning off up the sliproad hitting another car and breaking her arm. She blamed me claiming that I was travelling in excess of 80mph!!! (in a truck that I knew and could prove was limited to 56mph). The upshot was I was arrested, for causing Actual Bodily Harm by Dangerous Driving, but let off when the Police completed a full investigation.

My point with that long winded story is, if someone on the train had been injured, could she be in the do do for the same reason as I would have been? had I not been able to prove my innocence.

How often do you cross a level crossing..once a week? how often is that level crossing telling you stop...once a year? .

I live in Lincoln. Nuff said

but seriously? Nym makes some interesting and valid contributions to the forum, and this thread has been no different and I respect his point of view even though it may differ from my own. My point here is that this is a discussion forum and every one has an opinion and it isnt fair to call them arrogant over it, his posts are his opinion, lets discuss it rather than berateing it. Also probably not the best way to introduce yourself on a forum, but welcome, I hope you enjoy the forum.


From what I can gather from the various reports that have been shown on this thread the woman was at fault for failing to notice the clear signage telling her there was a crossing and also the flasing red lights. The higway code is quite clear on these things, a red light means stop (but can be treated as a give way sign for emergency vehicles on a call), flashing red is treated as stop full stop!!!!!!!! (I'm aware that they are exclamation marks ) .

We were not in her car so we can't really comment futher than what the report said, but helpfully she gave an interview to the press, so she was a prat and must need her eyes testing, or a white stick.

Like I say I'm by no means perfect when it comes to driving, I have 3 points on my licence and i earned them for being a prat. and I may have exeeded a posted speed limit or two (or more). The simple fact is none of us are perfect.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I think on open crossings traffic lights would be a good idea.
Backed up with a couple flashing reds, or Xenon lights, especially as Cornwall has quite a lot of mist & fog!

I lived next to a staggered road junction, and when they put in traffic lights it was like 'Brands Hatch' every few minutes. Revving of engines, before the lights changed, most trying to beat the amber, then the squeal of brakes after the red came on! Overrunning the white line was a common occurrence!
My bedroom lit up red, amber and green all night!!