Train cleaners pay rise criticised

[northwichcat]

A contractor who have a cleaning contract for Virgin trains has been criticised for giving a pay rise of 6p per hour.

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/c...n-house-of-commons-1.878372?referrerPath=home

If the cleaners are on the typical £6 per hour salary it would be a 1% pay rise.

 

[Greenback]

Sadly, this will be the cue for lots of people to claim that the workers in question are lucky to get a rise at all, and are lucky to have a job. In fact, it's already started in the comments on the linky!

 

[michael769]

£6 an hour is well below the minimum wage so I find that figure unlikely, sadly that means that their pay rise is likely to be closer to 0.8%...

As someone who gets paid a decent living wage I say that they deserve it and more.

 

[Yew]

I thought minimum wage is about 5.60?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

£6 an hour is well below the minimum wage so I find that figure unlikely, sadly that means that their pay rise is likely to be closer to 0.8%...

The minimum wage for workers over 21 is £5.93, so £6 is just above the minimum wage, not below.

 

[northwichcat]

£6 an hour is well below the minimum wage so I find that figure unlikely, sadly that means that their pay rise is likely to be closer to 0.8%...

£5.93 is the minimum wage for anyone over 21 and if you look in your local paper most cleaner roles advertise £6 per hour. It's £4.92 for those below 21 and £3.64 for those below 18.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/TheNationalMinimumWage/DG_10027201
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sadly, this will be the cue for lots of people to claim that the workers in question are lucky to get a rise at all, and are lucky to have a job. In fact, it's already started in the comments on the linky!

I agree they're lucky to get a pay rise. However, remember all the moaning about TPE offering a below inflation pay rise when TPE staff are on salaries well above basic living costs? These cleaners are effectively working for the most profitable train operator in the company but are not directly employed by them.

 

[cuccir]

I agree they're lucky to get a pay rise. However, remember all the moaning about TPE offering a below inflation pay rise when TPE staff are on salaries well above basic living costs? These cleaners are effectively working for the most profitable train operator in the company but are not directly employed by them.

Inflation is 4.5%. Their pay rise is 1%. Interest on any savings that they have is likely to be under 2%. How is that lucky? No-one working in a country which has, since the mid 1970s, had its society twisted to the benefit of an elite class of the internationally mobile, at a cost to everyone else, can be considered lucky.

The article won't load so I can't see what they pay rise is up to, but its worth pointing out that the minimum wage is rising to £6.08 an hour in October.

 

[northwichcat]

Inflation is 4.5%. Their pay rise is 1%. Interest on any savings that they have is likely to be under 2%. How is that lucky?

Lucky in terms of there's a lot of people who haven't had a pay rise for years, despite inflation being high for the the past few years.

The article won't load so I can't see what they pay rise is up to, but its worth pointing out that the minimum wage is rising to £6.08 an hour in October.

It doesn't say the current rate. It just says the rise is 6p.

 

[tbtc]

Lucky in terms of there's a lot of people who haven't had a pay rise for years, despite inflation being high for the the past few years

I agree, sadly.

But I think that its a shame that the article is bringing Virgin into things, since these people aren't employed by them. The profits made by Virgin or Stagegoach aren't really relevant here.

 

[Greenback]

There was a chap on Question Time last night who said he had not had a pay rise for four years, with no prospect of one for a further two. I think he is a lot less lucky than the cleaners, but is probably on more money in the first place. Public sector pay freezes only affect those on more than £21000 as I understand it.

The country is in a mess. ther eis not other way to describe it really. We can argue about whose fault it is, or whether we are better placed to coem through it than the US, Germany or Japan, but that doesn;t alter the fact that we are in a mess!

I agree with cuccir that our society has become far too skewed towards those at the top. With the cost of living rises, the increase in unemployment, spending cuts, and everything else that is going on, it is only the elite that are in any way 'lucky' at the moment.

 

[185]

If the cleaners are on the typical £6 per hour salary it would be a 1% pay rise.

Beardie has to pay for his yacht, spaceship and island somehow. Didn't someone on here criticise me for giggling when one of them burnt down?

Let's not forget Virgin can't pass the buck for the wages here. Responsible train companies employ the staff directly. Virgin shamefully don't - these staff wearing a Virgin polo shirt get utterly no benefits.

 

[michael769]

The minimum wage for workers over 21 is £5.93, so £6 is just above the minimum wage, not below.

Thanks, I'd somehow go it into my head it was just over £7 now, I wonder where I got that figrue from...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree with cuccir that our society has become far too skewed towards those at the top. With the cost of living rises, the increase in unemployment, spending cuts, and everything else that is going on, it is only the elite that are in any way 'lucky' at the moment.

Amen!

 

[LexyBoy]

A contractor who have a cleaning contract for Virgin trains has been criticised for giving a pay rise of 6p per hour.

At first I thought they were being criticised for giving a pay rise at all!

I too agree with Greenback's comments. The difference between rich and poor is far too great. Everyone would be much happier if it were less IMO.

 

[142094]

There is a big clash up here between cleaners who work on the Metro, who are employed by Churchill (contracted out by DB). RMT is now involved.

 

[Geezertronic]

Beardie has to pay for his yacht, spaceship and island somehow. Didn't someone on here criticise me for giggling when one of them burnt down?

Let's not forget Virgin can't pass the buck for the wages here. Responsible train companies employ the staff directly. Virgin shamefully don't - these staff wearing a Virgin polo shirt get utterly no benefits.

You make it sound like Virgin are doing something different here when in fact your (unfounded) criticism could apply to any public or private company in the UK who use cleaning contractors...

 

[AndrewP]

Responsible train companies employ the staff directly. Virgin shamefully don't - these staff wearing a Virgin polo shirt get utterly no benefits.

I just can not agree with this as there seems to be big confusion here between who is the employer and who is responsible for staff treatment and, also there is nothing wrong with outsourcing if it is done effectively.

Virtually all cleaning is outsourced these days and there are many good companies out there who understand that to get the best out of their staff they have to be well treated. Also, a professional cleaning organisation should be better equipped to provide the technical support infrasructure (PPE, training etc) needed to support the staff in carrying out cleaning activities than a train operator.

What does concern me, as someone who has procured many many millions of pounds worth of contract cleaning, is that the wage rate is so low. This close to minimum wage is likely to result in high staff turnover as a tiny increase in hourly wage rate will be a huge incentive on staff to move on - resulting in increased recruitment costs, potential morale issues and service issues due to the learning curve of new or inexperienced personnel.

What is more important than whether the service is in house or outsourced is that it is carried out to the required standard, in a safe and responsible manner by personnel who receive fair reward for a fair day's work.

For reference I do not believe outsourcing or contracting is always the best option but whatever sourcing route is used it needs proper management using suitable performance measures which include staff welfare.

 

[Butts]

You make it sound like Virgin are doing something different here when in fact your (unfounded) criticism could apply to any public or private company in the UK who use cleaning contractors...

When companies "outsource" services the first three positions to go are normally:

Cleaners

Catering

Security

Although protected by TUPE for a period of time it does not last for ever.

These jobs already amongst the lowest paid are then exposed to full "market conditions" - ie a reduction in pay and benefits for new recruits and only a bare minimum protection for established staff subject to TUPE regulations.

In my opinion the Minimum Wage should be as someone thought it was £7 per hour.

 

[northwichcat]

In my opinion the Minimum Wage should be as someone thought it was £7 per hour.

I agree but in the current climate that would also cause problems. That would mean people with jobs that require some actual qualifications who are on £7 an hour now would finish up being on the same wage as the likes of cleaners, supermarket shelf stackers etc. as the current employer of the people on £7/hr will argue they can't afford to give them a pay rise to £7.50 per hour while the employers using the minimum wage will have to give a pay rise to £7 an hour.

 

[Butts]

I agree but in the current climate that would also cause problems. That would mean people with jobs that require some actual qualifications who are on £7 an hour now would finish up being on the same wage as the likes of cleaners, supermarket shelf stackers etc. as the current employer of the people on £7/hr will argue they can't afford to give them a pay rise to £7.50 per hour while the employers using the minimum wage will have to give a pay rise to £7 an hour.

That was one of the arguments used against the introduction of the minimum wage in the first place i.e differentials would have to be maintained and everyone else would have to receive a proportional increase.

To a degree this problem has been encountered in the recent Public Sector Pay Freezes -there must be some employees who were just above the cut off point and received no raise and others at the top end who got a raise.

I wonder if this has resulted in anonomylas (sorry) where an "unfrozen employee" has overtaken a "frozen employee" in the wage scales.

The crucial decision as with a lot of things is where to draw the line - there are always winners and losers

 

[exile]

Someone on £50k a year with no pay rise for 5 years is better off than someone on the minimum wage who gets a small pay rise.

And as has been pointed out to me before on other threads (when I mentioned my tiny pay rise), you can't use the fact that you, personally, have not had a pay rise, to say that no-one else is allowed to have one.

 

[passmore]

A contractor who have a cleaning contract for Virgin trains has been criticised for giving a pay rise of 6p per hour.

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/c...n-house-of-commons-1.878372?referrerPath=home

If the cleaners are on the typical £6 per hour salary it would be a 1% pay rise.

I think the person who is criticising needs a sense of perspective: 6p an hour is hardly breaking the bank is it?

A pay rise for what is essentially a minimum wage, menial job is fine so long as it's proportionate to the work involve.d If this was a pay rise of £6 as opposed to 6p, I would be alarmed.

 

[northwichcat]

That was one of the arguments used against the introduction of the minimum wage in the first place i.e differentials would have to be maintained and everyone else would have to receive a proportional increase.

Reportedly when the minimum wage was first introduced a lot of people on low salaries suffered a reduction in hours as a result of their employer deciding how the job could be done more efficiently in a lesser number of hours. In some instances I would imagine an unqualified employee could have finished up on the minimum wage with 30 hours of work a week, while a qualified employee could have finished up on not much more than the minimum wage but with the standard 37.5-40 hour week.

In the current economy the number of employees and hours as been cut back as far as back as possible with a large number of employers.

To a degree this problem has been encountered in the recent Public Sector Pay Freezes -there must be some employees who were just above the cut off point and received no raise and others at the top end who got a raise.

I know of instances in the private sector where an entry level employee has found themselves in an intermediate level role as a result of intermediate level people leaving and a new entry level employee being recruited, opposed to a new intermediate level employee. However, despite the entry level employee effectively getting a promotion to an intermediate level, they don't get the pay rise to go with it. That would mean offering everyone a blanket 5% pay rise when the economy picks up would actually have a negative effect on some employees.

 

[Butts]

Reportedly when the minimum wage was first introduced a lot of people on low salaries suffered a reduction in hours as a result of their employer deciding how the job could be done more efficiently in a lesser number of hours. In some instances I would imagine an unqualified employee could have finished up on the minimum wage with 30 hours of work a week, while a qualified employee could have finished up on not much more than the minimum wage but with the standard 37.5-40 hour week.

In the current economy the number of employees and hours as been cut back as far as back as possible with a large number of employers.



I know of instances in the private sector where an entry level employee has found themselves in an intermediate level role as a result of intermediate level people leaving and a new entry level employee being recruited, opposed to a new intermediate level employee. However, despite the entry level employee effectively getting a promotion to an intermediate level, they don't get the pay rise to go with it. That would mean offering everyone a blanket 5% pay rise when the economy picks up would actually have a negative effect on some employees.

The introduction of the minimum wage certainly assisted those in the Security Industry, particularly with regard to it's associated add ons such as Statutory Holiday Pay etc.

The "opting out" on the 48 Hours option effectively put a brake on their wages. The reason being that if Guards were only allowed to work 40/48 hours it would push the level of pay up as the current employees who work 60/72 and even 84 hours per week provide cover at the basic rate currently paid. This is the only way they can make a "decent living" and if they could only work 40 hours not many would do it hence forcing the rates up.

With regard to pay rises as I mentioned before an equal cash sum to each employee benefits those at the bottom more. (£500 per year or whatever)

 

[krisk]

From my experience our on board cleaners are far from that. They answer questions, deflect criticism, work hard, work with our on board teams to help clear up.

I remember when every train had its own cleaner and whilst working for a different organization, we all worked together as a team. I can now work a train that has 3 cleaners on it, then the next one has none.

I am of the belief that whilst not the most cost effective initially, every train should have a crew, so that they know the train, route, stopping patterns, loadings etc and that by doing so we build a relationship with our regular customers and welcome newcomers. On paper it's a risk BUT in terms of being effective it would work in the long term.

 

[thelem]

I don't see a problem here - it sounds like the cleaning company are paying more than the minimum wage, and therefore more than other companies are paying for similar work. In percentage terms for existing employees, 1% isn't great, but it's more than a lot of people are getting.

If the staff want to earn more then they can look at other jobs, which may require them to get additional training (options are available).

 

[185]

.....a professional cleaning organisation should be better equipped to provide the technical support infrasructure (PPE, training etc) needed to support the staff in carrying out cleaning activities than a train operator

Not really - Northern Rail do a great job, the staff aren't on a great wage there either, but they recieve full travel and pension benefits. Using the likes of Carlisle is really the lazy way out.

Central trains also started using Cleaners to dispatch trains at Liverpool at one point, and it was noticed the dispatchers (usually with a bin bag in one hand) were regularly doing things wrong, not checking signals and despatching against red lights. The same happened when Transpennine contracted dispatchers out - the Carlisle staff were doing 12 hour shifts with utterly minimal breaks, and in the final hour of their day they were often despatching against a red.

You make it sound like Virgin are doing something different here when in fact your (unfounded) criticism could apply to any public or private company in the UK who use cleaning contractors...

Most private companies in the UK don't survive on piles of public money.

 

[NightatLaira]

the money has to come from somewhere... and don't think you'll get it from the shareholders! Take it from them - and they will want to sell their shares, then the share price goes down, the company becomes seen as 'less profitable' by the stock market, and then the stuff really hits the fan.

I have sympathy for the RMT disliking the sly ways TOCs outsource their services - but if you force them into recruiting their own cleaners with proper wages, pensions, holidays and all the rest of it - fares have to rise! People switch back to cars, passenger numbers go down, suddenly you don't need as many cleaners or even services!

It all has to come from somewhere... if someone is willing to work for £6ph - let them.. it's above the minimum wage at the end of the day (just). The unions campaigned vociferously for the minimum wage, people like myself warned them back in the day that this could set a 'lowest common denominator' standard for workers, now it has - they don't like when it works the other way.

 

[Geezertronic]

Most private companies in the UK don't survive on piles of public money.

The mother in law works for a private cleaning company who contract out to Birmingham City Council who place her in senior schools. I'd say they survive on "piles of public money"

 

[AlterEgo]

From my experience our on board cleaners are far from that. They answer questions, deflect criticism, work hard, work with our on board teams to help clear up.

I couldn't agree more.

Most Carlisle Group folk are worth their weight in gold. A local lass works my regular morning train and is always unfailingly friendly and helpful. There's never a "not my job" moment.

 

[es373]

To be fair they don't do much other can talk on the phone while on shift.