Train cancelled Following Overshoot

[Metroman62]

Some friends of mine were traveling from Llandudno to Manchester operated by Arriva last week. When they got to chester they had to get off as they were told the train was now cancelled and out of service as the driver had over shot a station. they had to get a stopping service for the rest of the journey to Manchester which took much longer.

Safety is obviously important, but does anyone know what happened and why the driver would not have been able to continue?

 

[bronzeonion]

Some friends of mine were traveling from Llandudno to Manchester operated by Arriva last week. When they got to chester they had to get off as they were told the train was now cancelled and out of service as the driver had over shot a station. they had to get a stopping service for the rest of the journey to Manchester which took much longer.

Safety is obviously important, but does anyone know what happened and why the driver would not have been able to continue?

Probably some H&S crap getting the way

 

[A-driver]

It depends why the train overshot. If it was driver error then the driver would be taken off driving duties for investigation. If it was a train fault the the train would be taken off for investigation and if it was a problem which left the driver shaken and un able to continue then he would be taken off until fit to return.

Not exactly h&s gone mad is it-if it's happened once and they ignore it and it happens again only more serious (a SPAD etc) then they will have a lot of awkward questions to answer.

 

[185]

I think at this time of year, it's not yet going to be slippy rails, so chances are it may be a misread driver's docket and he's sailed through maybe Shotton which would require the driver to be stood down.

 

[northwichcat]

If it was a train fault the the train would be taken off for investigation and if it was a problem which left the driver shaken and un able to continue then he would be taken off until fit to return.

I understand there is usually a crew change at Chester and as ATW base some units there they are quite often able to switch units at Chester when there is a unit fault. Quite often there is a spare ATW unit already sat at eastbound facing platform at Chester which can take over from a faulty unit arriving from North Wales.

 

[A-driver]

I think at this time of year, it's not yet going to be slippy rails, so chances are it may be a misread driver's docket and he's sailed through maybe Shotton which would require the driver to be stood down.

This time of year can be worse for slippery rails than in a few months time as its less expected now. Very light rain just after a long dry hot spell can catch far more drivers out than during the leaf fall when you are constantly on your guard.

As for switching units and crew it all depends if they have a spare unit and driver who can work the service-all depends on timings/diagramings/road knowledge etc.

 

[TDK]

Some friends of mine were traveling from Llandudno to Manchester operated by Arriva last week. When they got to chester they had to get off as they were told the train was now cancelled and out of service as the driver had over shot a station. they had to get a stopping service for the rest of the journey to Manchester which took much longer.

Safety is obviously important, but does anyone know what happened and why the driver would not have been able to continue?

I do feel it is unfair that you have put the times and date of the train on an open forum, maybe the driver does not want his work colleagues know he/she has had a mishap and they may have not wanted everyone to know - can you people have some thought before posting dates and train times?

 

[northwichcat]

I do feel it is unfair that you have put the times and date of the train on an open forum, maybe the driver does not want his work colleagues know he/she has had a mishap and they may have not wanted everyone to know - can you people have some thought before posting dates and train times?

Similar incidents in the past have been printed in the Daily Mail!

I think anyone reading this thread knows that the driver is human and humans make mistakes. We don't even know if it was a driver error, if someone posted the real reason for the overshoot and it wasn't driver error then attention being drawn to it could be doing the driver a favour! Monday saw torrential rain in Cheshire so that well could come in to it.

 

[driver_m]

I do feel it is unfair that you have put the times and date of the train on an open forum, maybe the driver does not want his work colleagues know he/she has had a mishap and they may have not wanted everyone to know - can you people have some thought before posting dates and train times?

Well said, the driver will feel bad enough about having an overshoot, regardless of fault or not. Especially as they will be the topic of messroom conversation until the next bit of gossip comes along. (The North Wales Coast line is notorious for slipping and sliding.) Putting stuff like this on a forum isn't fair as the driver can't respond to it.

 

[185]

Drivers doing overshoot are pretty common and many do it, all human after all.

Those that should get talked about are those who don't deal with the aftermath properly, like setting back without permission, or failing to report it.

 

[Max]

I agree with the above points, its fine to discuss these incidents but identifying individual services (thus drivers) is a tad unfair. Thus, I have edited the original post. However, as per the forum rules, I would encourage you to report such posts to us using the report button, allowing us to make edits more quickly.

 

[Metroman62]

The details I gave were provided to the public on the train. I was not giving details that were not already in the public domain.

 

[michael769]

As I have mentioned before I have been on a train that overshot, due to the driver forgetting he was supposed to stop, which was then authorized to set back. In that case the driver and train was allowed to continue on its way.

Assuming the ToC in question does not have a different policy I would tend to suspect a train fault or as 185 suggests a case where the driver failed to deal with the incident correctly.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Fair enough, but the TOC telling those directly involved on the train/in the station is not quite the same as you putting the details on the internet on an open forum.

 

[Metroman62]

Fair enough, but the TOC telling those directly involved on the train/in the station is not quite the same as you putting the details on the internet on an open forum.

Fair enough, but giving a P A announcement is very public, but actually raised more questions than it answered! Perhaps they should have just said train fault as people can perhaps understand that reason better than what they were told.

 

[Dennis]

.....Putting stuff like this on a forum isn't fair as the driver can't respond to it.

Yes he can, this is an open forum.

 

[michael769]

Yes he can, this is an open forum.

I suspect responding to a specific incident on a public internet forum would get him the sack - so in effect he cannot.

 

[driver_m]

Yes he can, this is an open forum.

No he can't. I'd almost guarantee that there is a confidentiality clause that prevents said employee speaking about this particular incident. Treated under similar lines to speaking to media organisations without going through the media people. ie dimly.

 

[A-driver]

Weather you carry on or cancel the train is partly down to the individual TOCs rules and also down to the driver if it was driver error. If the driver made a mistake and is new or has a history of incidents etc then they may want to take him off straight away. Other times they may let them continue. All depends in the specifics of the situation.

Was this an over run or a fail to call? Ie was any attempt made to stop at all? They can be treated very differently by TOCs.

 

[Metroman62]

The thing is, my friends did not notice an over shoot or a failure to call, which is not to say these did not happen. It was just not obvious, everyone got off the train at Chester, it was just strange to give out the reason for the cancelation of the train.

 

[northwichcat]

Do you know which platform at Chester the train called at?

It would usually be 4 or 7 which are quite long platforms so a 2 or 3 carriage train would need to stop in a specific place on those platforms and not just anywhere along the platform.

 

[simonmpoulton]

I do find it very strange that you wouldn't have continued on given they do usually do the crew change at Chester on this service - this is why the train is scheduled for around a 5 minute wait so the crew can be swapped. Unless you were on one of the services where it doesn't wait for a crew change and there wasn't therefore a replacement crew available.
Although considering the knock on effect this would have on the rest of the timetable it puzzles me that they wouldn't have sorted something out - which train would form the service back from manchester?

 

[Toots]

I cannot comment on this specific incident because I don't know enough about it but generally, in the event of a platform overshoot the following things must be taken into account:-Has a signal been passed at danger?,has TPWS been activated?,has the safety or mechanical equipment (train or lineside) failed? and has the train overshot the platform by more than 400m?.
In the case of the first two (and possibly the third depending on what has happened),the Driver and Signalman have to fill in forms together,and then in the case of a SPAD only Control can allow the Driver to continue, and in both cases only if the Driver feels fit to continue.
If the safety equipment has failed on a train , and passengers may not even be aware of the fact,then depending what and where it is, it will be withdrawn from service,and if a Driver has overshot a platform by more that 400m he will not be allowed to set back to the platform.
Again this is simply an overview of any platform overrun,I'm not commenting on what happened at Chester.

 

[TDK]

The details I gave were provided to the public on the train. I was not giving details that were not already in the public domain.

As you were not there as you quoted friends told you you cannot be certain there was a PA announcement if you was not on the train! I will stick with my concerns regarding train times and incidents and to the mods I did report the post
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Do you know which platform at Chester the train called at?

It would usually be 4 or 7 which are quite long platforms so a 2 or 3 carriage train would need to stop in a specific place on those platforms and not just anywhere along the platform.

The Manchesters normally stop at the top end of platform 7 and this is to allow the Mersey rail in behind if it is needed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I cannot comment on this specific incident because I don't know enough about it but generally, in the event of a platform overshoot the following things must be taken into account:-Has a signal been passed at danger?,has TPWS been activated?,has the safety or mechanical equipment (train or lineside) failed? and has the train overshot the platform by more than 400m?.
In the case of the first two (and possibly the third depending on what has happened),the Driver and Signalman have to fill in forms together,and then in the case of a SPAD only Control can allow the Driver to continue, and in both cases only if the Driver feels fit to continue.
If the safety equipment has failed on a train , and passengers may not even be aware of the fact,then depending what and where it is, it will be withdrawn from service,and if a Driver has overshot a platform by more that 400m he will not be allowed to set back to the platform.
Again this is simply an overview of any platform overrun,I'm not commenting on what happened at Chester.

Partly correct however a station fail to call or over run does not usually involve a SPAD, TPWS. As for the 400m rule this is down to signaller discression and the signalling system in place but usually if it is over 400m then yes permission may not be granted to return to the station
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I do find it very strange that you wouldn't have continued on given they do usually do the crew change at Chester on this service -

Some services do have a crew change and some do not it depends on the driver diagrams, if there was a crew change booked the train would not have been cancelled unless the unit was at fault

 

[KA4C]

I cannot comment on this specific incident because I don't know enough about it but generally, in the event of a platform overshoot the following things must be taken into account:-Has a signal been passed at danger?,has TPWS been activated?,has the safety or mechanical equipment (train or lineside) failed? and has the train overshot the platform by more than 400m?.
In the case of the first two (and possibly the third depending on what has happened),the Driver and Signalman have to fill in forms together,and then in the case of a SPAD only Control can allow the Driver to continue, and in both cases only if the Driver feels fit to continue.
If the safety equipment has failed on a train , and passengers may not even be aware of the fact,then depending what and where it is, it will be withdrawn from service,and if a Driver has overshot a platform by more that 400m he will not be allowed to set back to the platform.
Again this is simply an overview of any platform overrun,I'm not commenting on what happened at Chester.

Most, if not all, companies will D & A after a station overshoot, driver will be lifted for that

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Most, if not all, companies will D & A after a station overshoot, driver will be lifted for that

yep (within reason) time of year and other considerations will be taken into account, we have been very slippy slidy (just my name for it) the last week or so with the high winds and rain making the railhead pretty treacherous in places, Delamere and Mouldsworth have been good fun recently lol.

 

[455driver]

I think at this time of year, it's not yet going to be slippy rails,

Really, light drizzle can make for "interesting" conditions, one station all is well but the next the trains sliding all over the place.

 

[Toots]

Partly correct however a station fail to call or over run does not usually involve a SPAD, TPWS. As for the 400m rule this is down to signaller discression and the signalling system in place but usually if it is over 400m then yes permission may not be granted to return to the station

There is no 'partly correct' about it!,I'm stating the rules as they stand,and no you cannot set back over 400m following a platform overshoot,a Signalman can only give authorisation up to that distance providing he follows the regs to make that move.I don't know how many platforms have a signal and neither,I suspect, do you,I can only state what occurs if there is such a signal and it is 'spadded'.

 

[whhistle]

I do feel it is unfair that you have put the times and date of the train on an open forum, maybe the driver does not want his work colleagues know he/she has had a mishap and they may have not wanted everyone to know - can you people have some thought before posting dates and train times?

While in a sense I do agree with you, it's this kind of sensitivity which creates bad things in the future.

The OP has every right to post the date and time if they wish. Not everyone and their dog read this forum. People making mistakes shouldn't be paraded in front of the world, but they should not expect it to be swept under the carpet either. Yes, giving details is frowned upon, but not illegal. Not that the majority of laws really are kept these days anyway...

I have no problem in discussing errors in my managers work to their manager. It's not grassing them up, just making sure they know they are doing it wrong.

I suspect responding to a specific incident on a public internet forum would get him the sack - so in effect he cannot.

Internet forums can be an anonymous as you want them to be. If the driver in question chooses their words correctly, they can fight their corner (if they really feel the need to) and still remain unknown.

No he can't. I'd almost guarantee that there is a confidentiality clause that prevents said employee speaking about this particular incident. Treated under similar lines to speaking to media organisations without going through the media people.

I've spoken to the media many times about my work role. They agree to keep my identity secret (in the form of a signed contract letter) and I tell them what I really think.

 

[michael769]

Internet forums can be an anonymous as you want them to be. If the driver in question chooses their words correctly, they can fight their corner (if they really feel the need to) and still remain unknown.

They are not as anonymous as you think. Anyone who personally knows a poster well is likely to be able to identify them for their posts. Also while incidents of this type are not unheard of they are not commonplace - so it would not be hard for his employers to work out to what incident he was referring to.

I've spoken to the media many times about my work role. They agree to keep my identity secret (in the form of a signed contract letter) and I tell them what I really think.

A journalist can provide a very effective buffer that one can hide behind, for example they will rewrite a statement to hide a person's "style" - while an internet poster can try this we are mostly unaware of the little personal quirks that give us away.

The is also the question: Why should he? Blabbing about an incident under investigation to either the press or the internet is highly unprofessional, and I suspect most drivers would not dream of falling so low.

I recognize that there can sometimes be overriding ethical or public interest reasons for breaking confidentiality and going public, but I would respectfully suggest that overshooting a platform does not fall within this category.