Train buttons that do not press- a criticism

[Transilien]

On many newer trains, such as the class 385, the door opening buttons are touch-sensitive and not 'buttons' in the traditional sense. These buttons only register a press in some places and not all. This is a lot worse than the old buttons used on most trains built before 2015, and in my opinion, it poses problems for accessibility with the limited space that one can press the button. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

On many newer trains, such as the class 385, the door opening buttons are touch-sensitive and not 'buttons' in the traditional sense. These buttons only register a press in some places and not all. This is a lot worse than the old buttons used on most trains built before 2015, and in my opinion, it poses problems for accessibility with the limited space that one can press the button. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

I am surprised these are allowed as there banned in elevators due to accessibility issues.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

On many newer trains, such as the class 385, the door opening buttons are touch-sensitive and not 'buttons' in the traditional sense. These buttons only register a press in some places and not all. This is a lot worse than the old buttons used on most trains built before 2015, and in my opinion, it poses problems for accessibility with the limited space that one can press the button. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

I agree; they are awful and it's difficult to know if they've registered the touch or not when there's a noticeable pause before the door reacts.

 

[rmHawk765]

I'm not served by any trains like this, but I'm actually quite shocked to know they exist. It is a terrible idea.

 

[edwin_m]

Other trains have a button-like image but the "press" is registered by a movement sensor up above. With these I find it's more effective to wave a hand than to attempt to touch the "button".

I do agree the physical buttons are best, especially if their illumination changes when a press is detected. The other types aren't illuminated so are harder to find too.

 

[Peter0124]

You cant press these buttons with gloves on sometimes. And you can't avoid touching it with your fingers by using your elbow/phone/sleeve. A massive backwards move

 

[CarrotPie]

These are on virtually all our home-grown trains in Finland (yes we grow our trains ) and they're super annoying, mainly because you have no idea if you actually pressed it hard enough or not. And yes, it does light up...but your finger is blocking the light! Thankfully a lot of them do work with gloves if you press hard enough, and I've found that shoving the corner of my phone into them seems to have a pretty high success rate.

An image of the offending buttons, overall diameter ~3 cm:


Incidentally the only trains not to use those horrible buttons are our FLIRTs, which use big metal buttons that make a really solid *click* and light up when you press them (outside the press zone) and are not only unbelievably satisfying to press but also really accessible for all passengers. I don't have a picture, but they're essentially the same design as on Electrostars.

 

[Russel]

Can someone explain what accessibility concerns there are here?

 

[kkong]

Can someone explain what accessibility concerns there are here?

With a normal button, there is a physical movement of the button, so you know that your press has been registered. With these buttons, there is no physical feedback.

I dislike these buttons.

I also dislike the "double level step" on boarding. No idea why that exists.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Can someone explain what accessibility concerns there are here?

Partly sighted / blind people won't have any means of knowing if they've pressed them properly or not.

 

[saismee]

Incidentally the only trains not to use those horrible buttons are our FLIRTs, which use big metal buttons that make a really solid *click* and light up when you press them (outside the press zone) and are not only unbelievably satisfying to press but also really accessible for all passengers. I don't have a picture, but they're essentially the same design as on Electrostars.

Sounds like the ones we have on FLIRTs here, and yes they are nice. You can even press the outer part of the button where it lights up and still press it.

 

[Russel]

With a normal button, there is a physical movement of the button, so you know that your press has been registered. With these buttons, there is no physical feedback.

I dislike these buttons.

I also dislike the "double level step" on boarding. No idea why that exists.

Partly sighted / blind people won't have any means of knowing if they've pressed them properly or not.

Could a simple fix be to add a beep sound to signal the button has been pressed?

 

[Peter0124]

Could a simple fix be to add a beep sound to signal the button has been pressed?

Surely best fix is to revert back to the old style

 

[Russel]

Surely best fix is to revert back to the old style

Things evolve, there must be some reason for the switch to the newer design.

 

[Travelmonkey]

for light rail there is a light ring that is on some trams, although not helpfull for visually impared passengers.

 

[rmHawk765]

Sounds like the ones we have on FLIRTs here, and yes they are nice. You can even press the outer part of the button where it lights up and still press it.

Same as the Desiros being of a similar time period. I've never seen a UK train with sensor buttons, so I believe the 385/380 might be the only example, though do correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[800001]

On many newer trains, such as the class 385, the door opening buttons are touch-sensitive and not 'buttons' in the traditional sense. These buttons only register a press in some places and not all. This is a lot worse than the old buttons used on most trains built before 2015, and in my opinion, it poses problems for accessibility with the limited space that one can press the button. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

I thought the 385s used the same buttons as on the 8XX fleets? Which a physical pressed buttons?

 

[Russel]

for light rail there is a light ring that is on some trams, although not helpfull for visually impared passengers.

But if you can see enough to find the button to press it, then you'll see a flashing light?

 

[rmHawk765]

Things evolve, there must be some reason for the switch to the newer design.

There simply isn't. It is less reliable (because your hand might not be detected), more failure-prone (because the sensor stuff is more complex than a button), and worse accessibility-wise (because the blind will struggle without tactile feedback).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The Class 390 which obviously dates back to 2002 had these over a decade before they came on en-masse, on their internal vestibule/saloon doors. I think they’re much better than the dodgy sensor operated ones on Turbostars and Turbos where you have to grab the doors and yank them open.

 

[dosxuk]

Capacitive buttons are generally more reliable than physical buttons, especially in exposed or vibration heavy environments, because they do not rely on physical components to do the switching.

The better ones contain a haptic feedback device to provide the sensation of a click, even if there is no mechanical switch involved.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Surely the important feedback would be that the intended consequence of pressing the button has happened (eg. The door has opened) rather than simply the feedback that you've pressed the button (but it hasn't done anything)?

A touch button would be more accessible to people with a wider range of physical impairments than a push button would, by virtue of requiring less physical force to operate.

 

[CarrotPie]

A touch button would be more accessible to people with a wider range of physical impairments than a push button would, by virtue of requiring less physical force to operate.

I often find that touch buttons need just as much force to register your press than clicky buttons do, which defeats the point.

Surely the important feedback would be that the intended consequence of pressing the button has happened (eg. The door has opened) rather than simply the feedback that you've pressed the button (but it hasn't done anything)?

Yes, but if the door hasn't opened, is the door broken or have you just not pressed the button correctly?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I often find that touch buttons need just as much force to register your press than clicky buttons do, which defeats the point.

Most UK ones aren't buttons at all, just a fake button that puts your hand in the right place to trigger a sensor. Pressing it thus has no effect at all.

The ones pictured above in post 7 (which I agree are awful) are not used in the UK.

 

[superalbs]

I didn't even know any UK trains had these, but yes I really hate them.

 

[Russel]

There simply isn't. It is less reliable (because your hand might not be detected), more failure-prone (because the sensor stuff is more complex than a button), and worse accessibility-wise (because the blind will struggle without tactile feedback).

Source for these claims?

Pendolinos have had these since 2001 internally, the fact that they haven't been replaced suggests the issues you raise are over-exaggerated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't even know any UK trains had these, but yes I really hate them.

Some units have the fake buttons where you don't actually press it but rather wave at a sensor above the door which is pointing at where the fake button is. The connecting doors on 168s and 170s are an example of this.

I've not seen actual touch buttons on any UK stock, I don't recall them on Pendolinos certainly.

 

[Russel]

I've not seen actual touch buttons on any UK stock, I don't recall them on Pendolinos certainly.

The internal door buttons on Pendolinos are touch sensitive aren't they?

 

[superalbs]

The internal door buttons on Pendolinos are touch sensitive aren't they?

Indeed they are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're absolutely right, I had Voyagers (and the doors at the actual corridor connection) on the mind. I've never had an issue with them that I recall though.