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Traffic Light Sequencing

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Butts

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Does anyone know whether Traffic Lights have an "intelligent" function that enables them to alter the sequence to take account of the traffic volumes and direction.

The reason I ask is that I spend a lot of time driving around Edinburgh in the early hours of the morning when there are very few cars on the road.

It is really frustrating to be pulled up at lights and sit waiting whilst no traffic emanates from the other junctions/roads covered by the same set of lights. No one has activated a pedestrian crossing either.

When you are on a major road I would have thought the lights would remain green constantly until traffic approached from one of the minor roads and then perhaps reverted to a sequence ?
 
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ainsworth74

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Depends on the traffic lights. Some can be fitted so that they vary the sequence according to traffic flow (for instance green on the main road until a car appears on the minor road) but not all do and, of course, it'll be more expensive to install such equipment as opposed to just having them all switch in a fixed sequence so it may not always be considered cost effective.

Personally I think on some roads traffic lights should switch to have a flashing amber in the early hours effectively telling drivers to treat it as a normal junction and proceed with caution.
 

Butts

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Depends on the traffic lights. Some can be fitted so that they vary the sequence according to traffic flow (for instance green on the main road until a car appears on the minor road) but not all do and, of course, it'll be more expensive to install such equipment as opposed to just having them all switch in a fixed sequence so it may not always be considered cost effective.

Personally I think on some roads traffic lights should switch to have a flashing amber in the early hours effectively telling drivers to treat it as a normal junction and proceed with caution.

Yes that would be a good idea.
 

TheEdge

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There have just been some new traffic lights installed near me that are fairly clever. In normal working they just follow a normal sequence. If there is no traffic they will just stop altogether and remain wherever they were set. As soon as a vehicle appears they will start changing but only for that route, not in a sequence.
 

455driver

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Yes that would be a good idea.

That would be a f-----g stupid idea!
The number of idiots that cant slow down for mini roundabouts when its stupid oclock and you want them to go steaming through traffic lights with no regard for anyone else that might be on the road! :roll:

The standard of driving in this Country is a joke with people being taught to pass the test rather than being taught how to drive properly, when that improves (not any time soon) I might agree with you but not now!
 
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Butts

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That would be a f-----g stupid idea!
The number of idiots that cant slow down for mini roundabouts when its stupid oclock and you want them to go steaming through traffic lights with no regard for anyone else that might be on the road! :roll:

The standard of driving in this Country is a joke with people being taught to pass the test rather than being taught how to drive properly, when that improves (not any time soon) I might agree with you but not now!

It's okay at 3am !!! - only problem is Taxi Drivers :p
 

TheNewNo2

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Flashing amber lights are a very bad idea. Either turn them off totally for a time (and put up notices of "part-time signals") or keep them on always. People approach junctions with lights as races.

Traffic light sequencing is quite an interesting field. For instance, say you have a roundabout with signals, traffic flows best if exactly one road from the roundabout is not signal-controlled.
 

me123

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Does anyone know whether Traffic Lights have an "intelligent" function that enables them to alter the sequence to take account of the traffic volumes and direction.

The reason I ask is that I spend a lot of time driving around Edinburgh in the early hours of the morning when there are very few cars on the road.

It is really frustrating to be pulled up at lights and sit waiting whilst no traffic emanates from the other junctions/roads covered by the same set of lights. No one has activated a pedestrian crossing either.

I'm sure they do. One set near where my parents live in Coatbridge clearly recognises when traffic is coming from one direction and adjusts accordingly. Another few sets here in Livingston do the same when I'm driving through at 2-3am. The technology definitely exists, but isn't used everywhere. I agree, it's infuriating. And it's wasting fuel and polluting the environment.

Of course, it's worth remembering that sequences can be more complicated than just one junction. The bridge under Kirkwood station, for example, is single track and controlled by traffic lights. However, there's also a set of traffic lights at a T-junction at one end of the bridge, with a relatively short section between the two (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.8...0MN2Z8rWkfh3ngptWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1, I can't explain it very clearly!). The two are clearly set up so that the traffic keeps moving and doesn't get stopped under the bridge, blocking it. So you can sometimes be sitting waiting for a while for seemingly no reason, but once you're through and under the bridge you'll arrive in perfect time for the light at the next junction to go green. In fairness, I've driven through there probably thousands of times and I've never seen it not work well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Traffic light sequencing is quite an interesting field. For instance, say you have a roundabout with signals, traffic flows best if exactly one road from the roundabout is not signal-controlled.

Someone might want to suggest to North Lanarkshire Council and Aberdeen City Council - by far the two biggest offenders in my experience:
1) Don't put pedestrian crossings 20 feet from roundabouts
2) If you are going to do it, make it a proper signal controlled junction with proper sequencing!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Personally I think on some roads traffic lights should switch to have a flashing amber in the early hours effectively telling drivers to treat it as a normal junction and proceed with caution.

Disagree. I don't think it would work well. It's not always clear at some junctions which road would have priority. And, as has been said, plenty of people would just ignore them and drive on through.

I think it's better to have the existing technology, that keeps traffic lights working the same way they currently do, but alters the sequence according to demand. It's reasonably widespread, so I can't imagine it's too expensive, and it doesn't rely on adding a new rule to the Highway Code.
 

90019

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Does anyone know whether Traffic Lights have an "intelligent" function that enables them to alter the sequence to take account of the traffic volumes and direction.

The reason I ask is that I spend a lot of time driving around Edinburgh in the early hours of the morning when there are very few cars on the road.

Lots of junctions around Edinburgh do have the function, but the majority are either set up wrong or deliberately sequenced to disrupt smooth traffic flow.

I get stopped at a junction on the way home from work almost every night while the filter is on to let traffic coming the other way turn right, despite there being little or no other traffic as it's usually after midnight, and it then cycles through the green light for the traffic to the left before finally coming round to the lights I'm waiting at. Sometimes it adds in the green man for good measure, too.
 

DynamicSpirit

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There have just been some new traffic lights installed near me that are fairly clever. In normal working they just follow a normal sequence. If there is no traffic they will just stop altogether and remain wherever they were set. As soon as a vehicle appears they will start changing but only for that route, not in a sequence.

A good idea provided they are also able to detect bicycles approaching ;)
 

IanD

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A couple of years back, I noticed that over a couple of weeks the tailback at traffic lights on the A10 between the M25 and the North Circular Road had suddenly increased on the Friday evenings I travelled along the route - whereas previously I'd had to wait at most one cycle I was experiencing waits of 3 or 4 cycles with maybe 3 or 4 cars getting through on green (a couple more if they carried on on amber!). I asked Transport for London (TfL) and they replied thusly regarding the lights at the Church Street junction:

"This road junction has recently been modernised. We are in the process of introducing dynamic traffic control system that adapts signal timings. At present we are testing traffic signal timings to set up dynamic traffic control, and the timings of the signals have been adjusted to ensure that an appropriate level of priority is given to manage the demand from traffic on the Great Cambridge Road (main road) at peak times, and from traffic on Church Street (side road) during school peak hour periods."

Now you only have to wait max 1 cycle (as it was before the improvements). However, I have noticed that if there is a higher volume of traffic, the lights stay green longer to allow more cars through.
 

jon0844

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Intelligent lights have existed for years but it can all fall apart when you encounter a set on fixed phasing 24/7.

The idea to have the primary route on green is fine but in Sweden they prefer to have everything set to red and operate true first come, first served. With sufficient sensors, when quiet you won't wait from any direction, and it also means pedestrians or cyclists crossing from separate cycle routes don't wait either if they arrive before a vehicle.

And I think all lights are intelligent, plus they used to (not sure they do now) flash yellow at night in very quiet areas - like housing estates.

They also allow people to turn right on red at many junctions.

Sadly I'm not sure we could do the latter things for the reasons mentioned (driving standards or lack thereof).
 

Bevan Price

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Personally, I think there are far too many traffic lights at minor road junctions, and some of the people in charge of our roads are incapable of logical thought, and a few are dangerously incompetent. There seems to be a fad that traffic lights solve traffic problems - in my opinion they often make things worse.

1. Observe a traffic jam, and then see how many originate at a poorly times set of traffic lights.

2. Observe how difficult it can be to make a legal right turn and some light-controlled junctions. So much oncoming traffic builds up at some junctions that it fails to clear when the lights revert from green to red. The only way to turn right often involves moving when the lights are turning to red, or making a very quick "dash" at the start of the cycle.

3. Some lights have right filters - potentially a good idea, but not if the filter occurs near the end of the green phase. First vehicle wants to turn right - queue develops behind it because it blocks all the vehicles wanting to go straight ahead.

4. Separate pedestrian controlled lights installed about 10 yards from the junction lights - but not visible to anyone turning left at the junction until they have made the turn. Even at low speed, your chances of stopping at the pedestrian lights are well under 100%.

5. Pedestrian controlled lights again. Some take so long to stop traffic that many pedestrians just ignore them, especially in bad weather. Even worse if you need 2 or 3 sets of lights to cross a dual carriageway.
 

DaleCooper

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Intelligent lights have existed for years

I think they've been around for decades, doesn't anyone remember the rubber strips in the road at junctions that detected vehicles passing over them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In fact I've just remembered a book from the 1950s called "See How It Works" which has a chapter titled "Automatic Traffic Lights" which described the charging/discharging of capacitors for timing and the rubber strips for vehicle detection.
 
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jon0844

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I remember being fascinated watching a junction in Sweden at night when I was about 5, so that's about 35 years ago. It was mesmerising watching how everything just flowed so perfectly.
 

MotCO

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What I find frustrating are signals which have a right filter which means that when the straight-ahead traffic can go (on a straight ahead arrow, rather than solid green light), I cannot turn right even if there is no on-coming traffic. I have to wait for the filter to turn green before I can turn right.

Why can't they have a solid green light plus a filter, then I can go when it is clear, or if not, I can wait for the filter to give me the priority?
 

AM9

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The lights at the entrance to St Albans Station Road by default give a continuous green for victoria St., and only give Station Rd., a green when there is traffic waiting at the lights. Well that's the intention, but because of inconsiderate parking to collect travellers there, the sensor is right up by the stop line. If a driver waiting does the sensible thing and stops a few feet back to allow buses space to swing across, the lights will never change from red.
 

Haydn1971

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Traffic signals work in a variety of ways, fixed time plans, via a UTC (urban traffic control) system or increasingly more likely these days, using SCOOT in urban areas and MOVA at rural sites - there's also a variety of signal priority methods around, that fiddle with the signal timings to ensure public transport run with minimal delay or help them get back onto a timetable, these typically use GPS and some form of comms, radio, GPRS, 3G to relay the position of a bus/tram to a central database that can autonomously adjust signals to minimise delay to buses whilst not overly upsetting other traffic.
 

Bevan Price

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What I find frustrating are signals which have a right filter which means that when the straight-ahead traffic can go (on a straight ahead arrow, rather than solid green light), I cannot turn right even if there is no on-coming traffic. I have to wait for the filter to turn green before I can turn right.

Why can't they have a solid green light plus a filter, then I can go when it is clear, or if not, I can wait for the filter to give me the priority?

1. Because they are control freaks, or,
2. Because they are incapable of logical thinking.

And even if you suggest it to them, they will insist that they are "always right".
 

ainsworth74

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What I find frustrating are signals which have a right filter which means that when the straight-ahead traffic can go (on a straight ahead arrow, rather than solid green light), I cannot turn right even if there is no on-coming traffic. I have to wait for the filter to turn green before I can turn right.

Why can't they have a solid green light plus a filter, then I can go when it is clear, or if not, I can wait for the filter to give me the priority?

The only places I can think of where I've come across that is where it would nearly always be to dangerous to allow for people to turn right with first stopping the lane they're crossing. There is an example near me where this exists and you're crossing two lanes with a 50 MPH limit and the visibility of on coming traffic is poor as there is the crest of a hill a short distance away.
 

SpacePhoenix

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All the sets of lights that have been refurbed/replaced this way over the last few years have got an aerial for each set, so possibly the council can remotely alter the sequence if needed
 

krus_aragon

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From my experience many cyclists seem to believe they are exempt from the dictates of Traffic Lights rendering your suggestion superfluous :p

I must be in your minority. :/

Several intersections in Cardiff have (had) traffic lights activated by induction loops only, without a PIR sensor looking for approaching traffic. My Raleigh all-steel bicycle doesn't have the ferrous content to be detected by the loops, but in daytime hours there'd be a car coming along behind me to get the lights to change. That system doesn't work quite as well in the wee hours of the morning. Many's the time I grew tired of waiting for a lump of steel to pull up behind me, and just walked my bike through the red light instead. (As a pedestrian, I am not legally required to wait at a red light.)

Thankfully, new traffic light installations now include induction loops and PIR sensors as a rule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What I find frustrating are signals which have a right filter which means that when the straight-ahead traffic can go (on a straight ahead arrow, rather than solid green light), I cannot turn right even if there is no on-coming traffic. I have to wait for the filter to turn green before I can turn right.

Why can't they have a solid green light plus a filter, then I can go when it is clear, or if not, I can wait for the filter to give me the priority?

Possibly because there's a pedestrian crossing on your exit road, hence the need to control when you can turn right?
 

telstarbox

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What I find frustrating are signals which have a right filter which means that when the straight-ahead traffic can go (on a straight ahead arrow, rather than solid green light), I cannot turn right even if there is no on-coming traffic. I have to wait for the filter to turn green before I can turn right.

Why can't they have a solid green light plus a filter, then I can go when it is clear, or if not, I can wait for the filter to give me the priority?

Can you give us an example?
 

MotCO

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Can you give us an example?

The junction which frustrates me in particular is turning right from London Road into Morden Road, Mitcham.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3...jQKr8eGSkj23PPPwBR-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

krus_aragon: There is indeed a pedestrian crossing in Morden Road, but I rarely see any pedestrians there, and mostly the exit is clear but there is a long queue turning right, taking three or four changes of light to clear the junction.

ainsworth74: I take your point, but from the Google Streetview, you can see that the junction has good visibility.


There is also another similar junction half a mile in the other direction at London Road / Cricket Green. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4...00&yaw=162.62837&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en This doesn't have a pedestrian crossing in Cricket Green.
 
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90019

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Can you give us an example?

Try this one.
https://goo.gl/maps/MnoRYVCLQgt

The road is a 30mph limit, which is busy in the peaks, but fine at other times. The pedestrian crossings all go green after the traffic from Groathill Road on the right has gone.
The junction has induction loops in the road, and the right turn light will only change if there is something waiting (and only stay green as long as there is something there).

The problem is, at night if you miss the right turn and the lights for straight on go back to red, you end up sitting there for about 2 minutes waiting for it to cycle through again, with most of that time being green for traffic going straight on or coming the other way, despite the road being empty.
It's frustrating because it's on one of my bus routes, and not too far from the terminus, with no opportunity to make up the time you lose waiting there.
 

Butts

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What about Roundabouts with Traffic Lights .....

Just before Christmas in Edinburgh the lights at one of the major blackspots where the A8 leads onto the M8/M9 just past Ratho Station were all horizontal on the ground and obviously not working. I think they were being replaced.

This went on for a few days and I'm not sure if it caused problems during the rush hours, but at non-peak times when I was using it the flow seemed fine without the addition of traffic lights to the roundabout.

Do we really need traffic lights on a roundabout or island as some people call them.
 
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