Traffic commissioner general discussion

[Simon75]

Do the traffic commissioner ever refuse applications for new/withdrawn/alterations to service?

 

[RT4038]

Do the traffic commissioner ever refuse applications for new/withdrawn/alterations to service?

In the deregulated world outside London, the Traffic Commissioners do not have the power to refuse applications per se, only if the information supplied is clearly wrong or incomplete, or delaying their acceptance if the legally mandated time scales have not been complied with. The TC cannot and does not make any judgement on whether applications / changes are a good idea / justifiable / proportionate etc etc.

 

[pjnathanail]

In the deregulated world outside London, the Traffic Commissioners do not have the power to refuse applications per se, only if the information supplied is clearly wrong or incomplete, or delaying their acceptance if the legally mandated time scales have not been complied with. The TC cannot and does not make any judgement on whether applications / changes are a good idea / justifiable / proportionate etc etc.

What about for services covered by enhanced partnerships where the local authority doesn’t support the service?

 

[Roger1973]

What about for services covered by enhanced partnerships where the local authority doesn’t support the service?

I think technically, they can, but it's a fairly recent power, and not sure it's actually been used yet.

TC's can of course refuse the 'short notice' element of a change if they don't think there's a good enough reason for the short notice, and insist on the 'proper' notice period being given.

There are a few exceptional circumstances where TC could refuse an application if the local authority objects on road safety grounds (again I don't think it happens often) and there's also the power to restrict any new applications on the grounds that a particular bit of road already has quite enough buses for safety (I think that decision has to be made before any specific registration / variation is considered.) The latter is quite a rarity, and not sure quite what the process is for making a decision like that - I'm only aware of a small handful of cases where this has happened since deregulation, and haven't personally been involved in any.

only if the information supplied is clearly wrong or incomplete

I've known applications refused (or at least sent back with a 'try again') where the proposed timetable in some way doesn't meet the legal standards, e.g. frequency and running time will vary depending on what the traffic's like that day (I've known an operator try that in a seaside town), or where the timetable doesn't meet the standards for a local bus service in some way, e.g. very long distance / time gap and vague route details between two timing points.

But the centralised office for registrations don't have any sort of local knowledge so things can get through if they are just not clearly wrong. From a local authority perspective, I've had registrations where the route map and written route description don't match, and in one case, with a timing point in the timetable that was not on either, and then there's ones where the running time is very wrong one way or another.

 

[RT4038]

I think technically, they can, but it's a fairly recent power, and not sure it's actually been used yet.

The TC would be very reluctant, and certainly would not refuse a withdrawal. The LTA (local transport authority) would have to have some pretty convincing reasons to get the TC to act against new or altered (supposing that the altered was 'increased').

 

[pjnathanail]

The TC would be very reluctant, and certainly would not refuse a withdrawal. The LTA (local transport authority) would have to have some pretty convincing reasons to get the TC to act against new or altered (supposing that the altered was 'increased').

The more interesting one would perhaps be where a local authority supported a service and another operator (perhaps a bitter former operator) registered a similar service over part of the route / part of the timetable.

We had this in Lincolnshire recently where PC Coaches lost a contract for route 47 Newark to Lincoln to Centrebus, but PC Coaches then registered commercial duplicate journeys off peak only. I wonder whether the LA would have wanted to prevent these duplicate journeys.

 

[Roger1973]

The more interesting one would perhaps be where a local authority supported a service and another operator (perhaps a bitter former operator) registered a similar service over part of the route / part of the timetable.

We had this in Lincolnshire recently where PC Coaches lost a contract for route 47 Newark to Lincoln to Centrebus, but PC Coaches then registered commercial duplicate journeys off peak only. I wonder whether the LA would have wanted to prevent these duplicate journeys.

I'm not sure that the TC has the power to refuse a registration or the LA the power to object in those circumstances, although would have thought neither would approve a short notice application.

I've known this happen a few times where an operator has lost a tender for what they see as 'their route', and the action of local authorities varies - there is an obligation 'not to inhibit competition' so a council should not put a tendered service on to compete with a commercial route, but I'm not sure the 1985 Transport Act envisaged an operator launching commercial competition to a tendered route. The council would at least have to give whatever was the minimum notice to cancel the contract, but some might give the situation a while to see if the 'unsuccessful' operator withdrew again.

I have an idea that there was a proposal that some action could be taken against an operator who tendered for a service, didn't win it, then registered it commercially, but not sure if that was under PSV or competition law, and I'm not sure it ever made it in to law. I'm not aware of it having happened. In theory it's contrary to competition law for an operator to run a 'predatory' loss making service, although action on that can be quite slow to happen.