Trackside Trees

[Dr Hoo]

Any reason we don't already see flails?

Youtube video of fancy forestry machinery
Skimmed through the above - the one around 7-8 minutes was what I was thinking of. Has quite a reach but I note that it is in a forest so it isn't quite so fussy about which way the tree falls over as you might want to be around a railway! Its also fairly wide - might have a decent reach if on a dedicated rail chassis, less so perched up like an RRV.
The concept I was pondering was a possession (maybe a Sunday one) to blat through the bigger trees in a section and lift them out onto wagons for removal. Then a more flail like contraption to keep down the smaller trees at a decent distance per overnight.
But I guess the neighbours aren't keen on overnight tree felling - is it all done during the day by workers walking in?

(Late to the party on this. Above post from a few days ago.)

My own views on flailing were indelibly etched in my mind when I was a BR manager on the South Eastern area in the mid 1980s.

A fearsome new road-rail contraption turned up one day and was put to work somewhere around Broadstairs overnight.

The following day the phones were red hot with lineside neighbours claiming for ruined greenhouses and conservatories! Meanwhile, I was dealing with the operational fallout from the fact that the machine had eventually failed between two overbridges with its arm fully extended. This had the effect of stranding half the South Eastern fleet of CEPs and VEPs in Ramsgate Depot and wiping out most of the morning peak through the Medway.

Oh dear.

 

[Garmoran]

Is there no scope for using flails like farmers use on hedges, or is there too much potential for "whoopsie, what was that...do you reckon it was important"?

Trees beside the West Highland Line get complained about regularly, by Friends of the West Highlands Line and others, because they interrupt the views and spoil photographs.
Some years back NR or one of their subcontractors did use a flail beside the line but the results were messy and I remember the effects on one hawthorn or simular spring flowering tree also attracted a lot of complaints. It's very hard to keep people happy.

 

[380101]

Is there no scope for using flails like farmers use on hedges, or is there too much potential for "whoopsie, what was that...do you reckon it was important"?

QTS, one of the biggest rail contractors for Network Rail, regularly deploy a Road Rail excavator with flail head attached all over the lines in the west of Scotland. No doubt they also do so across the rest of the UK. They usually do it March/April time every year. All important lineside equipment is highlighted with bright orange paint beforehand so the RRV flail operator can see them.

 

[alxndr]

I recall a flail being used on the Berks and Hants around 2016/17. Worked but does make a bit of a mess! I can't recall now if it was used near any houses or not, my gut instinct says no but I'm not sure.

 

[Envoy]

QTS, one of the biggest rail contractors for Network Rail, regularly deploy a Road Rail excavator with flail head attached all over the lines in the west of Scotland. No doubt they also do so across the rest of the UK. They usually do it March/April time every year. All important lineside equipment is highlighted with bright orange paint beforehand so the RRV flail operator can see them.

March & April is bird nesting time!

 

[380101]

March & April is bird nesting time!

There's a certain date they work to. Also, any major de-vegation work has to have an environmental survey carried out beforehand. Finally, the safety of the railway will always override any environmental constraints where foliage/trees are impinging on the safety of the line.

 

[Annetts key]

Flails have been used. But there are plenty of disadvantages as well as some advantages.

With respect to embankments and cuttings, the benefit or disadvantages of vegetation very much depends on the soil type, existing (if any) drainage systems and the actual types of plants.

Certain types of tree don’t help. Especially mature tall trees.

 

[themiller]

When I lived near Oakengates station in the early 1980s, several contractor’s road-rail vehicles arrived in the station yard and worked eastwards in convoy with their flails set at different positions to cover the north side of the line before returning on the down line to cover the other side. I remember that there were at least three vehicles, one of which was a tractor.

 

[Recessio]

People want the trees there, often on their own land.

I was expecting a bigger response to the weed problem after the Nine Elms wall collapse. Did they fail to get funding?

That one was due to Buddleia. I live in Vauxhall and it's absolutely everywhere in about a half-mile distance of the viaduct, because NR fail to get rid of it, and it spreads via the wind. I live in a tall block of flats and I don't think many people realise there's a lot of Buddleia growing in their roofs, and it has extremely invasive roots (hence the viaduct weakening that caused the wall collapse)

As for people wanting trees in their area, I remember there being a huge argument in Wimbledon Chase where NR wanted to clear some trees from a small patch of land next to the station, due to the impact on the railway, and the local residents and particularly councillors raising hell about it.

 

[Brush 4]

Why do NR have to publicise work on their own land? I don't recall BR telling everyone what their plans were, except for noise caused by overnight engineering work and then only to those living alongside the line.

 

[Annetts key]

Buddleia is a nightmare, it seeds easily in the slipstream of the trains and spreads widely as a result. It appears to love the limestone ballast. And grows rapidly.

And although it can be cut back, unless the roots are killed, it almost always grows back.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Trees on earthworks is generally bad as ours are oversteep. But it is a very specific relationship so that is not a catch all statement.

The problem we face now is having realised having the railway covered in trees is bad, they are all so big the cost is huge.

There simply isn't the access, money, resources, will power for it to be any different.


PS heritage railways are not that much different if you look at the comparison between now and 30/40 years ago! Even at places that have extensive weed and tree control policies in place.

 

[vic-rijrode]

Buddleia is a nightmare, it seeds easily in the slipstream of the trains and spreads widely as a result. It appears to love the limestone ballast. And grows rapidly.

And although it can be cut back, unless the roots are killed, it almost always grows back.

In fact cutting back Buddleia increases the vigour of the plant as any gardener will tell you. Mechanical removal of roots or effective herbicide are the only remedies.

 

[alxndr]

In fact cutting back Buddleia increases the vigour of the plant as any gardener will tell you. Mechanical removal of roots or effective herbicide are the only remedies.

The problem is it’s a viscous circle. When your equipment is being swallowed up by a buddleia bush and the only tools you have is to cut it back you have no choice but to cut it. Might indeed make the problem worse the following year but at least it buys you access for the job in hand.

 

[railfan99]

I think the impact of vegetation is highly dependent on the exact relationship between the species of flora and the local soil conditions (and sometimes geology). Local water conditions also come into it.

In England, away from coastal areas where if similar to my country one would expect porous sandy soils, is the soil typically some type of loam, or do you have lots of clay soils?

 

[zwk500]

In England, away from coastal areas where if similar to my country one would expect porous sandy soils, is the soil typically some type of loam, or do you have lots of clay soils?

It's a real mix. There are big sand and grave deposits quite far inland for the UK (no part lf Britain is more than 80 miles from the coast or something like it), but we also have lots of clay and chalk alongside loam and fen.

 

[Envoy]

They might be able to reduce the Buddleiah problem by cutting them before the former flowers turn into seed heads that then blow in the wind to make more plants. Once rooted into masonry, it is virtually impossible to pull them out. Once the new leaves appear in the spring, if they were sprayed with weedkiller when no rain is forecast, that would hopefully kill them off.

 

[Annetts key]

It's a real mix. There are big sand and grave deposits quite far inland for the UK (no part lf Britain is more than 80 miles from the coast or something like it), but we also have lots of clay and chalk alongside loam and fen.

Plus, various embankments are constructed using spoil that the railway had available at the time. So some are made up of rock and earth extracted from cuttings and tunnels. Some include coal ash.

And since modern ballast handling trains have been used, spent ballast spoil has also been discharged on the sides of embankments and even on the sides of some cuttings (this occurred when ballast “cleaning” equipment was used and it was not possible to have spoil train on the adjacent line).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2023 ==

They might be able to reduce the Buddleiah problem by cutting them before the former flowers turn into seed heads that then blow in the wind to make more plants. Once rooted into masonry, it is virtually impossible to pull them out. Once the new leaves appear in the spring, if they were sprayed with weedkiller when no rain is forecast, that would hopefully kill them off.

Unfortunately the required resources don’t exist to time the cutting back to a particular time of the year.
And there is limited choice of weed killer products available for us to use (restrictions exist to prevent environmental pollution).

Hence the railways are now fighting a battle every year, and in a lot of places, are losing.

I expect this year to be just as bad as last year, whereby week after week during the summer we get reports of signals obscured by vegetation. Or lineside signs obscured by vegetation.

 

[WesternBiker]

(Late to the party on this. Above post from a few days ago.)

My own views on flailing were indelibly etched in my mind when I was a BR manager on the South Eastern area in the mid 1980s.

A fearsome new road-rail contraption turned up one day and was put to work somewhere around Broadstairs overnight.

The following day the phones were red hot with lineside neighbours claiming for ruined greenhouses and conservatories! Meanwhile, I was dealing with the operational fallout from the fact that the machine had eventually failed between two overbridges with its arm fully extended. This had the effect of stranding half the South Eastern fleet of CEPs and VEPs in Ramsgate Depot and wiping out most of the morning peak through the Medway.

Oh dear.

There's some amazing helicopter tree cutting footage on youtube here:

(And, before anyone points out the obvious risks for using this along railway embankments, I'm not being entirely serious - though in the US this is widely used for cutting along high-voltage power line routes.)

 

[zwk500]

There's some amazing helicopter tree cutting footage on youtube here:

(And, before anyone points out the obvious risks for using this along railway embankments, I'm not being entirely serious - though in the US this is widely used for cutting along high-voltage power line routes.)

I mean, I can see it might be useful in some locations. I don't think you'd be able to use it in an urban setting though

 

[Cowley]

This is definitely a topic that’s relevant this week:

HST cab protection

Hi all. Hope you had a good Christmas. I saw this when browsing twitter. What’s the deal? https://twitter.com/garethdennis/status/1740047999429140719?s=46&t=RdZND3FY1EujSxDuLKpFOQ https://twitter.com/pauljsweeney/status/1740042888929476824?s=46&t=95qQ_JEx3iXfmDmNBAOQWg

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