TPExpress Man - Scotland

[xtradj]

Can anyone advise whether the tpexpress services from Manchester airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh will eventually call at Victoria?

If they do will they still call at Piccadilly?

Are they also due to go via Bolton rather than Wigan once Electrification is complete? Thanks

 

[Muzer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it is proposed for these services to call at Victoria. They would have to do quite a roundabout route to do so.

I believe it is just the East-to-West routes themselves for which this is proposed.

 

[xtradj]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it is proposed for these services to call at Victoria. They would have to do quite a roundabout route to do so.

I believe it is just the East-to-West routes themselves for which this is proposed.

Not all east to west though

South TP is still Piccadilly isn’t it?

As is North (Hull will still be Pic and Scarborough will be Pic) with Liverpool to Middlesbrough and Liverpool to Newcastle being via Victoria

As I believe the Middlesbrough services will continue to Liverpool and swop with the Scarborough services which will now only go as far as Manchester?

 

[Muzer]

Not all east to west though

South TP is still Piccadilly isn’t it?

As is North (Hull will still be Pic and Scarborough will be Pic) with Liverpool to Middlesbrough and Liverpool to Newcastle being via Victoria

As I believe the Middlesbrough services will continue to Liverpool and swop with the Scarborough services which will now only go as far as Manchester?

I thought the South TransPennine ones were being altered, as currently they have to cross the entire layout at Piccadilly, and they wanted to avoid this (because it's a stupid thing to do for capacity and for delay recovery purposes). It'll call at Piccadilly AND Victoria. Or am I getting confused with another service?

As for the rest of them, I'm not sure.

 

[xtradj]

I thought the South TransPennine ones were being altered, as currently they have to cross the entire layout at Piccadilly, and they wanted to avoid this (because it's a stupid thing to do for capacity and for delay recovery purposes). It'll call at Piccadilly AND Victoria. Or am I getting confused with another service?

As for the rest of them, I'm not sure.

Ah I was unaware the South TP were being changed also. It’s probably all on here somewhere I’ve just not seen it.

 

[Muzer]

Ah, actually I think I'm really confused. You're possibly right about South TP; for some reason I'd completely forgotten they go via Stockport!

I feel like they'll want to do this with as many North TP services as practical, though, to avoid the aforementioned crossing over at Piccadilly.

 

[xtradj]

Ah, actually I think I'm really confused. You're possibly right about South TP; for some reason I'd completely forgotten they go via Stockport!

I feel like they'll want to do this with as many North TP services as practical, though, to avoid the aforementioned crossing over at Piccadilly.

I’m sure It’s only two of the five North ones which will go via Victoria (both from Liverpool) hopefully someone will clarify for us ha!

 

[Muzer]

Just found a great map which clarifies it! Thanks, Project Mapping! http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/TPX map 3 routes.pdf

 

[xtradj]

Cheers pal so it looks like Scarborough is staying with Liverpool, and Middlesbrough is staying with Manchester

One thing I’ve noticed on that map is the light blue line Manchester to Middlesbrough seems to dissapear between Leeds and York suggesting a split service? Surely an error?

 

[Muzer]

Cheers pal so it looks like Scarborough is staying with Liverpool, and Middlesbrough is staying with Manchester

One thing I’ve noticed on that map is the light blue line Manchester to Middlesbrough seems to dissapear between Leeds and York suggesting a split service? Surely an error?

It's possible this was changed since the map was made (May 2016), or perhaps it's an error. Looking at the times currently in RTT, in any case, it looks like the 4tph York to Leeds come from Newcastle (*2), Scarborough and Middlesborough, as of the next timetable change (the Edinburgh extension isn't due to happen yet).

 

[Flyingsprinter]

A bit off topic but for some reason the class 397 thread is all locked up. Does anyone know why tpe have only ordered 12 class 397’s? That’s nowhere near going to be enough to cover all Liverpool and Manchester-Scotland diagrams. The 10 class 350’s aren’t enough at the moment just doing Manchester to Scotland. Are they going to still use 185s to Scotland? Or use bi modes or mk5 sets? Would seem such a waste of a bi mode or a diesel to be running them fully under the wires. Why not order enough 397’s? Seems very odd to me.

 

[xtradj]

It's possible this was changed since the map was made (May 2016), or perhaps it's an error. Looking at the times currently in RTT, in any case, it looks like the 4tph York to Leeds come from Newcastle (*2), Scarborough and Middlesborough, as of the next timetable change (the Edinburgh extension isn't due to happen yet).

I’d be wary of taking the map as gospel if 2016

I’m sure there was a possibility of Liverpool to Scarborough becoming Manchester to Scarborough

And Manchester to Middlesbrough becoming Liverpool to Middlesbrough although I am unaware which was finalised of or in fact it is yet to be.

 

[MontyP]

If the map is correct, services to Newcastle are extended to Edinburgh - is this correct? When was the last time that Liverpool to Edinburgh services ran via Leeds/York? I vaguely remember that this happened in the loco-hauled days of the 1980s but might be mistaken!

 

[Muzer]

If the map is correct, services to Newcastle are extended to Edinburgh - is this correct? When was the last time that Liverpool to Edinburgh services ran via Leeds/York? I vaguely remember that this happened in the loco-hauled days of the 1980s but might be mistaken!

TPE themselves say that services currently terminating at Newcastle will be extended to Edinburgh (presumably only some of them) in December 2019.

 

[Mathew S]

Can anyone advise whether the tpexpress services from Manchester airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh will eventually call at Victoria?

If they do will they still call at Piccadilly?

Are they also due to go via Bolton rather than Wigan once Electrification is complete? Thanks

No plans for them to switch to Victoria.
Yes the plan is for them to switch to Bolton rather than Wigan once electrification is complete (effectively a swap with the Northern services to Barrow/Windermere which will switch to going via Wigan).

 

[swt_passenger]

TPE themselves say that services currently terminating at Newcastle will be extended to Edinburgh (presumably only some of them) in December 2019.

Should be an hourly service eventually half the services? As that announcement does say Morpeth will have hourly services to Edinburgh, amongst other places...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If the map is correct, services to Newcastle are extended to Edinburgh - is this correct? When was the last time that Liverpool to Edinburgh services ran via Leeds/York? I vaguely remember that this happened in the loco-hauled days of the 1980s but might be mistaken!

It has happened fairly recently when the WCML was pretty much closed for engineering work (eg bank holidays).
On at least one occasion they even ran via Sheffield to reach the ECML.
I'm not sure the hourly TP electric paths (for 802s) north of Newcastle are yet approved by NR because of power supply issues.

 

[WatcherZero]

For clarity
Class 68 and mk5 will operate Liverpool-Newcastle via Newcastle
Class 397 will operate Manchester Airport-Edinburgh/Glasgow (singly) and the Liverpool-Glasgow via Preston service (Likely 1 train diagrammed for 3 return trips per day)

 

[driver9000]

For clarity
Class 68 and mk5 will operate Liverpool-Newcastle via Newcastle
Class 397 will operate Manchester Airport-Edinburgh/Glasgow (singly) and the Liverpool-Glasgow via Preston service (Likely 1 train diagrammed for 3 return trips per day)

The 68s won't be going to Newcastle.

 

[xtradj]

Why aren’t the 185s staying on Liverpool to Newcastle??

 

[YorkshireBear]

Why aren’t the 185s staying on Liverpool to Newcastle??

Because they have bought 125mph IEPs for that service.

Stock plan for TPE North is

Class 185s on the Hull-Picc and Leeds - Pic Service.

Class 68s and Mk5s on the Scarbrough - Victoria - Liverpool and the Middlsborough - Victoria - Oxford Road - Piccadilly - Airport

IEPs (Class 802s) on the (Edinburgh eventually) - Newcastle - Victoria - Liverpool and the Newcastle - Victoria - Oxford Road - Piccadilly - Airport.

Then the class 397s on the North West to Scotland services and the 185s on TPE south from Cleethorpes to the Airport.

 

[xtradj]

Because they have bought 125mph IEPs for that service.

Stock plan for TPE North is

Class 185s on the Hull-Picc and Leeds - Pic Service.

Class 68s and Mk5s on the Scarbrough - Victoria - Liverpool and the Middlsborough - Victoria - Oxford Road - Piccadilly - Airport

IEPs (Class 802s) on the (Edinburgh eventually) - Newcastle - Victoria - Liverpool and the Newcastle - Victoria - Oxford Road - Piccadilly - Airport.

Then the class 397s on the North West to Scotland services and the 185s on TPE south from Cleethorpes to the Airport.

Where do the spare 185s go?

The IEPs can only do 125mph between York and Newcastle I’m guessing? Or can they between Liverpool and Victoria also?

 

[Mathew S]

Where do the spare 185s go?

The IEPs can only do 125mph between York and Newcastle I’m guessing? Or can they between Liverpool and Victoria also?

Elsewhere, more than likely. Several possibilities have been mentioned in various places on here, including the future Wales & Borders franchise, and Northern, amongst others.

 

[xtradj]

Elsewhere, more than likely. Several possibilities have been mentioned in various places on here, including the future Wales & Borders franchise, and Northern, amongst others.

Ah so still undecided

Both companies mentioned (more so wales) could do with some more modern stock

 

[Mathew S]

Ah so still undecided

Yes, afaik

 

[YorkshireBear]

There have been plenty of rumours but nothing at all confirmed. If I was a betting man I would look towards Wales. But Northern and even TPE keeping more than currently planned (to ensure 6 car formations permanently between Hull/Leeds and Piccadilly and Sheffield - Manchester Airport) have both been mentioned.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Where do the spare 185s go?

The IEPs can only do 125mph between York and Newcastle I’m guessing? Or can they between Liverpool and Victoria also?

Yes they can only do 125mph on that stretch but they will also be going up to Edinburgh where there is more 125mph running avaliable. So on the Liverpool - Edinburgh via Newcastle route York to Edinburgh is a big proportion of the route.

 

[Philip]

There have been plenty of rumours but nothing at all confirmed. If I was a betting man I would look towards Wales. But Northern and even TPE keeping more than currently planned (to ensure 6 car formations permanently between Hull/Leeds and Piccadilly and Sheffield - Manchester Airport) have both been mentioned.

I can't see all of the semi-fast/stopping services on the North TPE being formed of 6-coach trains. I suspect there'll be at least one diagram which runs in single formation all day, logically the one which avoid peak time hotspots the most. First priority for doubling up formations will be for the Manchester-Sheffield section, then whatever is left for the rest. I suspect some 185s may still be needed to boost the capacity on Fri-Sat-Sun Scotland services too.

 

[Bovverboy]

A bit off topic but for some reason the class 397 thread is all locked up. Does anyone know why tpe have only ordered 12 class 397’s? That’s nowhere near going to be enough to cover all Liverpool and Manchester-Scotland diagrams. The 10 class 350’s aren’t enough at the moment just doing Manchester to Scotland. Are they going to still use 185s to Scotland? Or use bi modes or mk5 sets? Would seem such a waste of a bi mode or a diesel to be running them fully under the wires. Why not order enough 397’s? Seems very odd to me.

A few extra journeys have been added to the TPE Scottish services in recent months, but as far as I'm aware the scheduled turnout for 350s is still eight units on Tuesdays to Thursdays and nine on Fridays to Mondays. Assuming that a double 397 will replace a double 350, a single 397 will replace a single 350 or a single or double 185, there will (at any one time) be one unit operating Liverpool - Scotland, and there will always be at least one unit not scheduled for service (as now, with the 350s) then I would expect the 397 turnout to be nine units Tuesdays and Wednesdays, nine/ten units Thursdays, ten units Mondays, and ten/eleven units Fridays to Sundays. There would be no more than one remaining 185 duty, and, even then, probably only on a Sunday.
In the circumstances I think that twelve 397s is the most which could realistically be ordered at this stage.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I don't think the plan is to run 397s doubled up is it?