TPE Stock post Northern Electrification Projects

[northwichcat]

In case my earlier posting was unclear, I will ask again exactly what is the new median part of the route that a proposed extension of the Hull to Manchester service will join up with the service that you so described.

I wasn't replying to your post but mwmbwls's who talked about shunting a terminating train at Piccadilly around.

The plan for TPE at present is:
* Half-hourly Liverpool-Newcastle via Victoria
* Half-hourly Airport-York via Victoria
* Half-hourly Piccadilly-Selby semi-fast with alternate trains continuing to Hull.

That would use 8 eastbound paths in and out of Piccadilly every hour instead of the current 12 leaving 4 paths for other services.

It's not clear whether the above would change if Chester was given a direct train to Leeds via Huddersfield.

 

[joeykins82]

Had a random musing on the train home from Manchester yesterday. Now that Manchester-Scotland is electrified could some of the services be handed back to the ICWC franchise holder? Increase the number of Euston-Manchester services to 4tph, terminate xx00 and xx30 at Piccadilly but run the xx15 through to Glasgow and the xx45 through to Edinburgh (similar to what's been done with the merged Euston-Birmingham and Birmingham-Scotland services).

 

[transmanche]

Now that Manchester-Scotland is electrified could some of the services be handed back to the ICWC franchise holder?

Did they ever belong to the ICWC franchise? I thought that prior to TPE they belonged to the ICXC franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

Had a random musing on the train home from Manchester yesterday. Now that Manchester-Scotland is electrified could some of the services be handed back to the ICWC franchise holder? Increase the number of Euston-Manchester services to 4tph, terminate xx00 and xx30 at Piccadilly but run the xx15 through to Glasgow and the xx45 through to Edinburgh (similar to what's been done with the merged Euston-Birmingham and Birmingham-Scotland services).

At the moment Slade Lane Junction to Piccadilly is at bursting point. Northern wouldn't be able to get another 323 from Glossop pathed through there at peak times never mind Virgin trying to get a much longer Pendolino over the Stockport viaduct and through Slade Lane junction. If Virgin wanted to run 4tph to Piccadilly at the moment the only option they could consider would be circular services doing London-Warrington-Manchester-Stockport-London and the reverse.

Alternatively, tell them they can run a Voyager service from Manchester Victoria to London via Denton.

However, I don't think the idea of London-Manchester-Scotland is a bad one. It could give places like Stockport and Stoke new direct services to places like Wigan, Carlisle and Edinburgh.

Did they ever belong to the ICWC franchise? I thought that prior to TPE they belonged to the ICXC franchise.

For a few weeks they did. The Arriva XC franchise started in November 2011 and TPE didn't take over Manchester to Scotland until the December timetable change so Virgin WC ran the services for the interim.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In case my earlier posting was unclear, I will ask again exactly what is the new median part of the route that a proposed extension of the Hull to Manchester service will join up with the service that you so described.

Paul, don't panic, it's all speculation.
The original Northern Hub idea was a diesel Chester-Victoria-Calder Valley destination.
Now there is prospect of both Chester-Warrington and Selby-Hull being wired, the speculation has switched to an electric Chester-Victoria-Hull service via Huddersfield.
We might conceivably know more when the Northern/TPE long franchises get rebid in a year's time, and we know more about the next round of electrification projects.

 

[northwichcat]

The original Northern Hub idea was a diesel Chester-Victoria-Calder Valley destination.

Originally an extension to both Leeds via Halifax or Leeds via Huddersfield were both under consideration but that was before the North TPE electrification announcement. I think the idea of Leeds via Huddersfield went quiet as people thought it wouldn't happen due to it being proposed that the CLC line was going to lose it's direct service to Leeds via Huddersfield post North TPE electrification.

 

[joeykins82]

At the moment Slade Lane Junction to Piccadilly is at bursting point. Northern wouldn't be able to get another 323 from Glossop pathed through there at peak times never mind Virgin trying to get a much longer Pendolino over the Stockport viaduct and through Slade Lane junction. If Virgin wanted to run 4tph to Piccadilly at the moment the only option they could consider would be circular services doing London-Warrington-Manchester-Stockport-London and the reverse.

Would that still be the case if they ran the 2 through services via East Didsbury instead of Stockport?

 

[northwichcat]

Would that still be the case if they ran the 2 through services via East Didsbury instead of Stockport?

Yes. Slade Lane Junction is where the Stockport-Manchester line meets the Airport-Manchester line. Also the Airport line is double track not quadruple meaning a Pendolino has more chance of getting stuck behind either a stopper or a train with a slower top speed.

While I mentioned TPE will use less eastbound paths out of Piccadilly post-Ordsall Chord (December 2016) it needs to be remembered that the Mid-Cheshire, Buxton and Crewe lines really need improved peak time services and the peak time services are less frequent than the Virgin London services, so should have higher priority for any paths made available. In the case of Mid-Cheshire the evening Manchester Piccadilly departures are 16:17, 17:09, 18:17, 19:17 so a lot less frequent than London services and in the case of my local station on the Mid-Cheshire line there's been a 90% increase in passenger numbers since 2005/06. In 2005/06 there were actually more departures: 16:24, 16:51, 17:24, 17:51, 18:24, 19:24 - two of these were truncated at Stockport in 2008 to accommodate 3tph between London and Manchester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would that still be the case if they ran the 2 through services via East Didsbury instead of Stockport?

An earlier posting made reference that the services via Slade Lane Junction were at bursting point so I cannot see where the paths for these extra services will come from and do not forget there are a number of existing paths dedicated to the container trains that use this route which save them having to pass through Stockport.

 

[BantamMenace]

An earlier posting made reference that the services via Slade Lane Junction were at bursting point so I cannot see where the paths for these extra services will come from and do not forget there are a number of existing paths dedicated to the container trains that use this route which save them having to pass through Stockport.

Doesnt part of the northern hub state there'll be an additional train to trafford park as well? This will take up another path over slade junction

 

[deltic08]

Don't dismiss intermediate stations between Leeds and Manchester. They have just as much right to a decent rail service as Huddersfield and Stalybridge. According to the latest ORR station usage figures for 2012/13, intermediate stations have collectively accounted for 3.75 million footfalls and growing year on year overall with only one train per hour compared to Huddersfield 4.6 million and Stalybridge 1.02 million with five and two trans-Pennine trains per hour respectively.

The two single bores of Standedge tunnel have been closed as long as tunnels on Leeds New and Micklehurst Loop but are in a condition good enough to consider reopening. As I said before there was quadruple track between Leeds and Manchester and parts need reinstating to allow an increase in TPEx and Northern trans-Pennine traffic. What can be done between Edinburgh and Galasheils can be done here.

No possibility of reopening Golcar station without requadrifying.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Doesnt part of the Northern Hub state there'll be an additional train to Trafford Park as well? This will take up another path over Slade Lane Junction

Exactly. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

 

[northwichcat]

Don't dismiss intermediate stations between Leeds and Manchester. They have just as much right to a decent rail service as Huddersfield and Stalybridge. According to the latest ORR station usage figures for 2012/13, intermediate stations have collectively accounted for 3.75 million footfalls and growing year on year overall with only one train per hour compared to Huddersfield 4.6 million and Stalybridge 1.02 million with five and two trans-Pennine trains per hour respectively.

The two single bores of Standedge tunnel have been closed as long as tunnels on Leeds New and Micklehurst Loop but are in a condition good enough to consider reopening. As I said before there was quadruple track between Leeds and Manchester and parts need reinstating to allow an increase in TPEx and Northern trans-Pennine traffic. What can be done between Edinburgh and Galasheils can be done here.

No possibility of reopening Golcar station without requadrifying.

Network Rail have said the intermediate stations could have 2tph to Manchester and Huddersfield in December 2018 if there is sufficient demand but until North TPE is electrified there isn't capacity to allow that and to also allow sufficient capacity between Manchester, Huddersfield and Leeds.

Electrification is being done instead of some of the other capacity improvements that were mooted previously not as well as.

 

[Philip]

Going further south, the Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield corridor is an interesting one particularly when it comes to what to do with 185s. I'd look at putting both of the fast Hope Valley services into the same franchise, maintaining some services the same with some add-ons and small changes as well...

Divert hourly Liverpool-Man Airport semi fast via Warrington Central with a basic stopping pattern of L'pool South Parkway, Warrington, Birchwood, Irlam, Occy Road, Piccadilly, Airport. This service can be run with either the current 156s or with 158s cascaded off the services below.

Hourly fast service to Sheffield using doubled up 185s, with the service then splitting - one portion to Cleethorpes, the other to Nottingham.

Hourly semi-fast service from either Preston or Barrow to Norwich via Bolton, Piccadilly then following the same stopping pattern as the current Liverpool-Norwich pattern. Use Class 185s for this service, with some busier diagrams running in 6-car formation between Preston and Sheffield.

The 185s used for the two above services would probably take up around 35-40 of the fleet. Doubling up the Cleethorpes/Nottingham workings along the Hope Valley would mean no extra track capacity is used up on this stretch and the cascaded 158s off Liverpool-Norwich could then be used for things like extra Caldervale services or strengthening. It would also make up for the lost Scotland service through Bolton, giving this town a regular long-distance service which it currently doesn't have.

 

[deltic08]

Don't forget services on the Calder valley-Dewsbury-Leeds, Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield and Huddersfield-Wakefield Kirkgate-Leeds corridors in addition to Leeds-Huddersfield fasts, stoppers and freight. Makes for a very busy railway from Mirfield to Huddersfield and impossible for growth and expansion between Mirfield and Leeds via Dewsbury on double track only even with electrification.

Network Rail has already stated in a previous Yorkshire RUS that it wants to keep Holbeck viaduct for rail expansion but of which route? Trans-Pennine? In that case two additional tracks need building on the southside at Leeds off Holbeck viaduct as far as Cross Gates with platforms 18 and 19 before the new south entrance is built at Leeds. Leeds-Cross Gates-Garforth quadrupling was mentioned in Network Rails 2009 RUS.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The two single bores of Standedge tunnel have been closed as long as tunnels on Leeds New and Micklehurst Loop but are in a condition good enough to consider reopening. As I said before there was quadruple track between Leeds and Manchester and parts need reinstating to allow an increase in TPEx and Northern trans-Pennine traffic. What can be done between Edinburgh and Galasheils can be done here.

No possibility of reopening Golcar station without requadrifying.

I do think that to not take the opportunity of relaying at least one of the spare bores through Standedge during the electrification works will come back to haunt the railway- even laying one unwired as an extra freight loop would make a big difference.

As for Golcar, there's no chance of the old station re-opening anyway I'd have thought. The proposal supported by Cllr. Paul Salveson in his brief position as member for the Golcar ward was for 'Golcar & Milnsbridge' which would be on the site of the former Longwood Goods station, just off Scar Lane, where the former yard is now a small industrial estate- 'The Old Railway Goods Yard'.

Don't forget services on the Calder valley-Dewsbury-Leeds, Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield and Huddersfield-Wakefield Kirkgate-Leeds corridors in addition to Leeds-Huddersfield fasts, stoppers and freight. Makes for a very busy railway from Mirfield to Huddersfield and impossible for growth and expansion between Mirfield and Leeds via Dewsbury on double track only even with electrification.

Network Rail has already stated in a previous Yorkshire RUS that it wants to keep Holbeck viaduct for rail expansion but of which route? Trans-Pennine? In that case two additional tracks need building on the southside at Leeds off Holbeck viaduct as far as Cross Gates with platforms 18 and 19 before the new south entrance is built at Leeds. Leeds-Cross Gates-Garforth quadrupling was mentioned in Network Rails 2009 RUS.

I believe it's been mentioned in a previous RUS (or perhaps a WYPTE 'aspiration') that the Huddersfield-Leeds (via Dewsbury) stoppers might increase to 2tph after electrification, though I remain cynical as to how much room there is unless Heaton Lodge Junction is drastically remodelled!

The Holbeck viaduct would appear to be best placed to be used by Cross-Country services (or Cross-Leeds stoppers) to/from the Wakefield Westgate direction. Perhaps an 'MUFC Halt' style platform could be built to serve Elland Road?

 

[deltic08]

Yes, a station at the west end of Holbeck viaduct is possible. I didn't think of that. I always assumed Elland Road station would be where the railway crosses Elland Road.

Totally agree with some reinstatement through Standedge single bores. The original formation was much straighter at the west end than the current formation with an unnecessary dogleg that needs easing out to raise speeds before electrification. Easing east end doglegs is a major reconstruction but possible.

Electrification installation on a two track, 24 hour railway will be a nightmare.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for Golcar, there's no chance of the old station re-opening anyway I'd have thought. The proposal supported by Cllr. Paul Salveson in his brief position as member for the Golcar ward was for 'Golcar & Milnsbridge' which would be on the site of the former Longwood Goods station, just off Scar Lane, where the former yard is now a small industrial estate- 'The Old Railway Goods Yard'.

It is not all that long ago when a thread appeared based on the views of Paul Salveson, which had what I recall as engendering "lively" postings.

The matter of Golcar has also been the subject of discussion in past days on this website.

 

[Cletus]

Re the Standedge tunnels, the Mind The Gap: London v The Rest programme had the presenter Evan Davis inside one of the disused tunnels.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03y3y8k/Mind_the_Gap_London_v_the_Rest_Episode_2/

About 53 minutes in (after Hebden Bridge as Britain's 2nd city bit )

 

[deltic08]

Good programme. Illustrates what the North is up against. Not enough spend planned on rail infrastructure to make it competitive with London. As I have said before, £500M needs spending to upgrade capacity and line speeds between Leeds and Manchester in addition to electrification.

Too many Pacers in evidence which is a handicap to making the North attractive to southerners.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As I have said before, £500 needs spending to upgrade capacity and line speeds between Leeds and Manchester in addition to electrification.

If ever there was a case that proves that those up North know how to be careful with cash, the highlighted part of the posting above really does prove this point. If they can do so much with £500, just think what they could do with £1,000.....hock:

 

[northwichcat]

If ever there was a case that proves that those up North know how to be careful with cash, the highlighted part of the posting above really does prove this point. If they can do so much with £500, just think what they could do with £1,000.....hock:

If it's £500 I could fund that on condition that I get £1 for every service that uses the Huddersfield-Leeds line for the first 12 months after the work is done.

 

[deltic08]

So many comedians. You know what I meant. Not a Yorkshireman by birth but have lived here for 44 years so tightfistedness must have rubbed off on me. I should have typed £500 million but it had been a long day!!!

This is only the amount allocated between York and Hitchin to increase capacity by one passenger train per hour and reduce East Coast journey times by four minutes from two new grade separated junctions and selected requadrification.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Have just read Hansard report on Commons debate on loss of 170s from TPEx.
Don't hold your breath. Life will be rough for rail users in the North for two years until NW electrification releases enough diesel trains. Stephen Hammond responded on behalf of Government. The best that can be expected is TPEx will retain all 170s until May 2015 but not beyond May 2016. Chiltern will take them as Marylebone-Oxford comes onstream. DfT sanctioned contract between Chiltern and Porterbrook in December 2013 without knowledge of Minsters. No coincidence that the Prime Minister lives in Oxfordshire!!

Glasgow MPs concerned not enough 185s to strengthen Manchester-Scotland services leaving only 350/4s.

Hull MPs concerned at possible loss of TPEx.

Northern will lose nine 158s to TPEx but Minister pledges he will "make it right" with Northern but doesn't say how. East Midlands MPs concerned that this will affect Nottingham-Leeds service quality.

Todmorden curve will not see trains until December 2014 at the earliest but more likely May 2015 as there are not enough 319s available to release diesel trains.

No refurbished 319s until after new franchise contract signed by new TOC in 2016.

Pacers to be retained beyond 2020 by DDA exemption.

Bolton-Manchester crowding to continue without extra trains until electrified.

Possible electrification to Barrow and Morecambe in addition to Windermere.

No quick fix for the North as £1 billion investment in electrification and other infrastructure over five years is all that Government can afford in the North despite 15 million population being greater than London and Southeast.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

DfT sanctioned contract between Chiltern and Porterbrook in December 2013 without knowledge of Minsters. No coincidence that the Prime Minister lives in Oxfordshire!!

DfT seem to have learnt nothing since the days of the franchising fiasco and appear to regard themselves as being beyond reproach and answerable to no-one.

Many thanks for your posting....from one of the "comedians" referred to in your posting...

 

[Starmill]

Have just read Hansard report on Commons debate on loss of 170s from TPEx.
Don't hold your breath. Life will be rough for rail users in the North for two years until NW electrification releases enough diesel trains. Stephen Hammond responded on behalf of Government. The best that can be expected is TPEx will retain all 170s until May 2015 but not beyond May 2016. Chiltern will take them as Marylebone-Oxford comes onstream. DfT sanctioned contract between Chiltern and Porterbrook in December 2013 without knowledge of Minsters. No coincidence that the Prime Minister lives in Oxfordshire!!

Glasgow MPs concerned not enough 185s to strengthen Manchester-Scotland services leaving only 350/4s.

Hull MPs concerned at possible loss of TPEx.

Northern will lose nine 158s to TPEx but Minister pledges he will "make it right" with Northern but doesn't say how. East Midlands MPs concerned that this will affect Nottingham-Leeds service quality.

Todmorden curve will not see trains until December 2014 at the earliest but more likely May 2015 as there are not enough 319s available to release diesel trains.

No refurbished 319s until after new franchise contract signed by new TOC in 2016.

Pacers to be retained beyond 2020 by DDA exemption.

Bolton-Manchester crowding to continue without extra trains until electrified.

Possible electrification to Barrow and Morecambe in addition to Windermere.

No quick fix for the North as £1 billion investment in electrification and other infrastructure over five years is all that Government can afford in the North despite 15 million population being greater than London and Southeast.

Gloomy picture! Are you saying that is actually what will be happening based on your interpretation of Hansard or am I utterly misunderstanding? I'm not sure where some of that has come from if you're serious?

 

[deltic08]

Hansard is available online but is twenty pages long.

I can't see any quick fix as there aren't any spare diesel units. It all depends on availability of 319 units from Thameslink and speed of delivery of NW electrification.

Delivery of 40 350/4 carriages to TPEx is justification for removing only 18 170 carriages as far as the DfT is concerned regardless of current overcrowding and future growth. Again the South comes first as many DfT civil servants commute through Marylebone.

If the new Northern franchisee is willing to take unrefurbished 319s then that is what we will get. It is not up to Porterbrook to impose.

If Pacers are allowed DDA exemption, who knows how long they will be around? That is discrimination of disabled in the North. I can tell you passengers and MPs between Tyneside and Teesside are pretty disgusted with the condition and ride quality of Pacers in their areas. Middlesbrough to Newcastle is 35 miles but in excess of 90 minutes journey time on a Pacer and similar from Newcastle to Carlisle.

We will just have to wait and see what Stephen Hammond has up his sleeve.

 

[Anvil1984]

Hansard is available online but is twenty pages long.

I can't see any quick fix as there aren't any spare diesel units. It all depends on availability of 319 units from Thameslink and speed of delivery of NW electrification.

Delivery of 40 350/4 carriages to TPEx is justification for removing only 18 170 carriages as far as the DfT is concerned regardless of current overcrowding and future growth. Again the South comes first as many DfT civil servants commute through Marylebone.

If the new Northern franchisee is willing to take unrefurbished 319s then that is what we will get. It is not up to Porterbrook to impose.

If Pacers are allowed DDA exemption, who knows how long they will be around? That is discrimination of disabled in the North. I can tell you passengers and MPs between Tyneside and Teesside are pretty disgusted with the condition and ride quality of Pacers in their areas. Middlesbrough to Newcastle is 35 miles but in excess of 90 minutes journey time on a Pacer and similar from Newcastle to Carlisle.

We will just have to wait and see what Stephen Hammond has up his sleeve.

Just a small point Middlesborough to Newcastle is 78 mins (depart Middlesborough xx32 arrive Newcastle xx50) not in 3xcess of 90 mins at all however I agree about the state of the pacers especially the old bench seat ones

 

[Bantamzen]

Hansard is available online but is twenty pages long.

I can't see any quick fix as there aren't any spare diesel units. It all depends on availability of 319 units from Thameslink and speed of delivery of NW electrification.

Delivery of 40 350/4 carriages to TPEx is justification for removing only 18 170 carriages as far as the DfT is concerned regardless of current overcrowding and future growth. Again the South comes first as many DfT civil servants commute through Marylebone.

If the new Northern franchisee is willing to take unrefurbished 319s then that is what we will get. It is not up to Porterbrook to impose.

If Pacers are allowed DDA exemption, who knows how long they will be around? That is discrimination of disabled in the North. I can tell you passengers and MPs between Tyneside and Teesside are pretty disgusted with the condition and ride quality of Pacers in their areas. Middlesbrough to Newcastle is 35 miles but in excess of 90 minutes journey time on a Pacer and similar from Newcastle to Carlisle.

We will just have to wait and see what Stephen Hammond has up his sleeve.

Hmm, it does paint a bit of a gloomy medium term picture for rail up here. And there's more than a hint of a political decision going on with the instance of moving 170s to Chiltern starting next May whilst making Northern cough up TPE's replacements. I wonder what DMU stock they'll end up with if there is anything up the sleeve? <cough> Pacers? <splutter>

TP electrification can't come soon enough, of that's assuming that the franchises are sorted out in plenty of time to allow new stock to be procured in time for the opening, otherwise someone might have to go back into time & pick up some 308s to run up here again...

 

[HSTEd]

If we are so upset about 'discrimination against disabled people in the North' we could just take the other option given the operational budget and simply withdraw the Pacers without replacement....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If we are so upset about 'discrimination against disabled people in the North' we could just take the other option given the operational budget and simply withdraw the Pacers without replacement....

Would that have to be a decision for Angel Trains to make and not for any TOC ?