TPE Stock post Northern Electrification Projects

[BantamMenace]

Just wanting to spark a bit of discussion off onto a dedicated thread about what stock people would like to see on TPE services after transpennine via huddersfield has been electrified and services from manchester to liverpool, leeds, york, newcastle, scotland and blackpool can be run.

I believe by the time the stock is procured that wires will have reached Hull, Middlesbrough, Sheffield and Windermere as well with Barrow and Scarborough as more futuristic options to prevent micro-fleets.

So what do people want to see running such services? This fleet will replace the 350s when they move to LM.

I personally would like to see a fleet of around 70 5-car EMUs to operate:
-Hourly Man Air to Blackpool, Lancaster (maybe barrow and windermere extended), Glasgow/Edinburgh, Hull, Middlesbrough, Newcastle, Sheffield and York (maybe Scarborough extended).
-Hourly Liverpool to Edinburgh/Glasgow (alternate hours to services from Manchester), Newcastle and Hull.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Hopefully the class 185's will be transferred to the S & C.

 

[northwichcat]

Based on Network Rail's platform lengthening program I wouldn't be surprised if the 158s on Liverpool-Norwich get replaced by doubled up 185s.

 

[SGS]

I'd like something with a similar layout to the 444s, but with a few more tables and (into the realms of fantasy here) seats that aren't rock hard.

444s have end doors, and it's often mentioned that suburban door layouts are a must for North Trans-Pennine to reduce dwell times, but in response to that I'd say that the current chronic overcrowding is surely a bigger factor in lengthening dwell times. Longer trains (and so more doors!) will help with that. TPEs often wait time at (especially) Leeds anyway, so there's already a fair amount of slack built in. Further, while TPE acts as a commuter service, it's also an inter-city service (a bit like Cross-Country). A long-distance service linking all the North's great cities deserves high quality rolling stock, in my view. More selfishly, I'm rather fed up with winter draughts from the doors while zooming along the ECML, so I'd rather have vestibules!

 

[47802]

I'd like something with a similar layout to the 444s, but with a few more tables and (into the realms of fantasy here) seats that aren't rock hard.

444s have end doors, and it's often mentioned that suburban door layouts are a must for North Trans-Pennine to reduce dwell times, but in response to that I'd say that the current chronic overcrowding is surely a bigger factor in lengthening dwell times. Longer trains (and so more doors!) will help with that. TPEs often wait time at (especially) Leeds anyway, so there's already a fair amount of slack built in. Further, while TPE acts as a commuter service, it's also an inter-city service (a bit like Cross-Country). A long-distance service linking all the North's great cities deserves high quality rolling stock, in my view. More selfishly, I'm rather fed up with winter draughts from the doors while zooming along the ECML, so I'd rather have vestibules!

TPE services were crowded 20 years ago when I used to travel on it to Huddersfield, and the 150's were better at dealing with it then 156's or 158's same when I travelled on the south TPX route a few years ago the EMT 158's would frequently overrun the station stops waiting for people to try and get off the train. I expect any new stock for the TPE will be some 387/380 variant, while it would appear some 387's are going to the midland we don't know where they are all going especially if the optional build is taken up.

 

[transmanche]

TPE will need something that has good acceleration, a 110mph top speed (125mph would be nice for the ECML runs, but let's be realistic!) and wide doors to reduce dwell times.

Yes, 5-car EMUs would be great - but I suspect 4x23m might be all we could expect.

Door positioning is a contentious issue. 1/4-3/4 positioning is best for the busy commuter services 'through the core' - whilst end doors are better for the longer runs.

I suspect that the choice will be between: a Siemens Desiro City, a Bombardier Aventra II or a Hitachi SET variant.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hopefully the class 185's will be transferred to the S & C.

I'd rather see them running on the Hull to Manchester service as replacements for the Class 170 units as temporary pre-electrification matter. (The Class 185 units seem fine on the Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service).

 

[fgwrich]

TPE will need something that has good acceleration, a 110mph top speed (125mph would be nice for the ECML runs, but let's be realistic!) and wide doors to reduce dwell times.

Yes, 5-car EMUs would be great - but I suspect 4x23m might be all we could expect.

Door positioning is a contentious issue. 1/4-3/4 positioning is best for the busy commuter services 'through the core' - whilst end doors are better for the longer runs.

I suspect that the choice will be between: a Siemens Desiro City, a Bombardier Aventra II or a Hitachi SET variant.

Going for some sense here, given that the TPE network already runs with Siemens stock I'd prefer/expect something based on the Siemens 380s - if that's still in production, given that the Desiro City is indented as suburban, but essentially a combination of both Desrio and City. The corridor connections would come in handy too in 2x4 car combinations.

 

[BantamMenace]

Two things pointed out their that I forgot to put in my opening post.

Yes 110mph is a necessity for them to be ideal on the WCML and ECML with 125mpg desirable but unlikely.

End corridors would be good due to multiple workings and portion workings being more than useful on the TPE network

 

[Class377/5]

Going for some sense here, given that the TPE network already runs with Siemens stock I'd prefer/expect something based on the Siemens 380s - if that's still in production, given that the Desiro City is indented as suburban, but essentially a combination of both Desrio and City. The corridor connections would come in handy too in 2x4 car combinations.

It is. The Desiro City comes in multiple variants, 20m 700 like or 23m 380 like with speeds of up to 115mph and walk through corridors being optional.

 

[BantamMenace]

Does anyone know the current line speeds between leeds and manchester vic, via huddersfield and if there is any likelihood of any increases to them in the timescale of its electrification?

(Will private investment from the next franchise holder in tilt-enabling infrastructure ever develop a worthwhile business case?)

 

[transmanche]

Going for some sense here, given that the TPE network already runs with Siemens stock I'd prefer/expect something based on the Siemens 380s - if that's still in production, given that the Desiro City is indented as suburban, but essentially a combination of both Desrio and City. The corridor connections would come in handy too in 2x4 car combinations.

Well AFAIAA, the 380 is a Desiro City body with a Desiro UK traction package. The only order so far for a 'pure' Desiro City is the Thameslink one - which obviously has a metro/suburban layout.

But that doesn't mean all Desiro City trains have to be suburban type. In fact I think one of the selling points that Siemens highlights is the flexibility in internal layout design - and how easy it is to reconfigure the layout.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does anyone know the current line speeds between leeds and manchester vic, via huddersfield and if there is any likelihood of any increases to them in the timescale of its electrification?

(Will private investment from the next franchise holder in tilt-enabling infrastructure ever develop a worthwhile business case?)

Don't think there's anything above 90mph between Ardwick & Armley- the cuts in journey times when the 185s came in were down to improved acceleration. As far as I'm aware, any subsequent further improvements will again be down to the better performance of electric traction.

 

[northwichcat]

As far as I'm aware, any subsequent further improvements will again be down to the better performance of electric traction.

The idea is two Piccadilly-Leeds semi-fasts will serve Stalybridge and Dewsbury with the Victoria-Leeds service every 15 minutes calling at only Huddersfield between Manchester and Leeds so there will be a bit of time improvement there on some services and sending the services in to Victoria should save a bit of time as well, but for journeys to/from the Airport/Piccadilly that time saving will be lost by the time the train will have to go around the Ordsall Chord.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does anyone know the current line speeds between leeds and manchester vic, via huddersfield and if there is any likelihood of any increases to them in the timescale of its electrification?

(Will private investment from the next franchise holder in tilt-enabling infrastructure ever develop a worthwhile business case?)

Currently 70mph is the best west of Diggle (and often less - 30 at Miles Platting for instance, 50 at Stalybridge).
It's 85 through Standedge Tunnel (but 45 at east end) and in places down to Huddersfield.
75 is the best east of Huddersfield.
The whole route has a "saw-tooth" speed profile.

There is a plan to improve journey times, but I think most of this will come from resignalling (flashing yellows at junctions) rather than line speed increases.
Maybe Victoria-Stalybridge will be improved as it has been a backwater.
The stated HLOS target is a journey time of 75 minutes Liverpool-Leeds (32 Liverpool-Manchester, 43 Manchester-Leeds).

The route cries out for tilt.
You could probably run most of the line close to the current 85mph max (ie 10-20mph more than the current speeds).
Tilting Voyagers would have been ideal for the route.
But SRA/DfT was not interested in tilt away from the WCML, so TPE got 185s.
I doubt things will change for electric operation.
The only tilting EMU on the stocks is the 6-car mini-Pendolino that Virgin and First were looking at for the WCML, which would be too much for the TP route.

 

[transmanche]

The only tilting EMU on the stocks is the 6-car mini-Pendolino that Virgin and First were looking at for the WCML, which would be too much for the TP route.

Could order them as 6-car and then transfer one car into the WCML 9-car sets, to make them all 11-car!

 

[BantamMenace]

The route cries out for tilt.
You could probably run most of the line close to the current 85mph max (ie 10-20mph more than the current speeds).
Tilting Voyagers would have been ideal for the route.
But SRA/DfT was not interested in tilt away from the WCML, so TPE got 185s.
I doubt things will change for electric operation.
The only tilting EMU on the stocks is the 6-car mini-Pendolino that Virgin and First were looking at for the WCML, which would be too much for the TP route.

In addition, does anyone have the exact route mileage Leeds P15/16 stop boards to Man Vic stop boards.

I guess it to be around 45 miles so if the 43 minute target you mention is an average of just over 60mph with a stop at Huddersfield.

Surely aspirations should be made so that other than on the approaches to stations line speeds never dip below 70mph with a maximum speed of 100mph implemented in as many places as possible.
35 minutes seems very achievable in my views

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In addition, does anyone have the exact route mileage Leeds P15/16 stop boards to Man Vic stop boards.

42 miles 70 chains according to Quail.

 

[Bantamzen]

Currently 70mph is the best west of Diggle (and often less - 30 at Miles Platting for instance, 50 at Stalybridge).
It's 85 through Standedge Tunnel (but 45 at east end) and in places down to Huddersfield.
75 is the best east of Huddersfield.
The whole route has a "saw-tooth" speed profile.

There is a plan to improve journey times, but I think most of this will come from resignalling (flashing yellows at junctions) rather than line speed increases.
Maybe Victoria-Stalybridge will be improved as it has been a backwater.
The stated HLOS target is a journey time of 75 minutes Liverpool-Leeds (32 Liverpool-Manchester, 43 Manchester-Leeds).

The route cries out for tilt.
You could probably run most of the line close to the current 85mph max (ie 10-20mph more than the current speeds).
Tilting Voyagers would have been ideal for the route.
But SRA/DfT was not interested in tilt away from the WCML, so TPE got 185s.
I doubt things will change for electric operation.
The only tilting EMU on the stocks is the 6-car mini-Pendolino that Virgin and First were looking at for the WCML, which would be too much for the TP route.

Tilt would be very useful down the hill from Diggle towards Stalybridge & back, it's very difficult to pour your wine over that section...!

Why do you think a that 6-car mini-Pendo would be too much though? At peak times you would probably still have to shoehorn people in between Manchester & York, and most other times it would be comfortably full. Of course the downside of a Pendo is that you'd likely miss much of the scenery going over the tops, instead having to stare at the back of a seat or the plastic interior wall.

I do think that at least 5 car sets are going to be needed sooner or later, this route continues to attract more & more custom from what I see when we use it between Leeds & Warrington. We always book 1st class in advance, as I wouldn't want to risk the scrum that usually forms on platform 16 at Leeds at most times.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Tilt would be very useful down the hill from Diggle towards Stalybridge & back, it's very difficult to pour your wine over that section...!

Why do you think a that 6-car mini-Pendo would be too much though? At peak times you would probably still have to shoehorn people in between Manchester & York, and most other times it would be comfortably full. Of course the downside of a Pendo is that you'd likely miss much of the scenery going over the tops, instead having to stare at the back of a seat or the plastic interior wall.

I do think that at least 5 car sets are going to be needed sooner or later, this route continues to attract more & more custom from what I see when we use it between Leeds & Warrington. We always book 1st class in advance, as I wouldn't want to risk the scrum that usually forms on platform 16 at Leeds at most times.

By "Pendolino" I just meant the modern Alstom package.
It would be whatever the modern design is (not the 1999 VT version).
I doubt the vehicles would be compatible with the existing 390s.

The TP route is very odd.
Where else do you get 4tph (soon to be 5tph) long-distance 3-car trains?
Maybe Edinburgh-Glasgow is the nearest equivalent, and they are going to 4tph 6-8 car electric sets.
I would have thought fewer/longer trains is also a better plan for TP, so maybe the 6-car new Pendo would work.
The problem then is the multiple origins/destinations of the route as currently worked.

 

[BantamMenace]

Liverpool to Newcastle
Liverpool to hull
ManAir to Newcastle
ManAir to Middlesbrough
ManAir to York (extended to Scarborough post electrification or introduction of bimode/battery)
ManAir to Hull

They can all justify hourly 6+ car tilting stock in my opinion. It'll need a large private investment to make it happen though.

 

[Nym]

Or just order 4x20m units and routinely doible them up.
If you dont want gangways, build off the limiting factor that is Oxford Road sta. 8x20m fixed formation Desiro City with a nice interior lahout and a minibar / shop thingey...

 

[YorkshireBear]

Already difficult to fit the local services in. Are we forgetting these? Tilt will make it even harder, i would rather we didn't end up with a situation like Stockport-Piccadilly and Coventry-New Street where we can no longer fit in the locals due to VHF timetable.

 

[Nym]

Tilt would also reduce passenger comfort significantly as the gauge isn't available on TPE, and drastically increase the sprung and unsprung mass of the units, adding to track wear, increasing maintenance and downtime.

It would also mean yet another non-standard order, why not just stick with what's on offer and specify interior layout to suit?

 

[Class 170101]

Hopefully the class 185's will be transferred to the S & C.

and

Based on Network Rail's platform lengthening program I wouldn't be surprised if the 158s on Liverpool-Norwich get replaced by doubled up 185s.

Both routes not suitable for the lard butt Class 185s. Norwich to Ely restricted to 40mph in parts to non sprinter trains

 

[YorkshireBear]

Considering the S&C has been upgraded for heavy freight i think it might be alright now a days.

Although saying that freight goes along the Hope Valley and the Hull line so i am actually talking B****ks.

 

[Leylandlad]

Considering the S&C has been upgraded for heavy freight i think it might be alright now a days.

Why don't Network Rail let the 158/153 formations run at 75mph? Unless it's a pathing issue...

Considering the battering the southbound track gets off the coal trains, surely it's a drop in the ocean whether a 158 runs at 60 or 75 :roll:

 

[RichmondCommu]

Considering the S&C has been upgraded for heavy freight i think it might be alright now a days.

Although saying that freight goes along the Hope Valley and the Hull line so i am actually talking B****ks.

My reason for suggesting the 185's run on the S & C is that they are powerful trains and ideally suited for the Long Drag. The 158's are good but they do tend to wheel slip on the S & C. I also think its fair to say that the S & C will see line speed upgrades in the next few years but electrification is a long way off! CP8 anyone?

 

[Bevan Price]

Well AFAIAA, the 380 is a Desiro City body with a Desiro UK traction package. The only order so far for a 'pure' Desiro City is the Thameslink one - which obviously has a metro/suburban layout.

But that doesn't mean all Desiro City trains have to be suburban type. In fact I think one of the selling points that Siemens highlights is the flexibility in internal layout design - and how easy it is to reconfigure the layout.

With many trains having stops every 10 to 20 minutes, amd large numbers of passengers alighting & boarding at many stations, a 390 or Voyager type of door arrangement is rather unsuitable - it increases the station dwell time. You need wide doors with easy access, not a narrow door accessed through narrow passages. So - unless TPE (or successor) gets two different design of emu (and that seems unlikely), I think that the door layout will almost certainly resemble that of Class 185 or 350.

 

[Whistler40145]

I'd put Class 185s on the S & C.

As for extra EMUs, I would have an order of Class 379s or Class 380s.


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