TPE shuttle between Oxenholme & Windermere

[trainophile]

Last time I took this journey, on a weekday, the VT to Oxenholme from Wigan was running about 12 minutes late, and my heart was sinking that we'd have missed the connection to Windermere, the next one being an hour later. However to my relief the TPE turned up a minute after we'd disembarked at Oxenholme, (i.e. about 15 minutes behind its schedule) so all was well.

I'm wondering whether the TPE was deliberately delayed, knowing that the VT would be full of passengers for Windermere.

I ask because I'm now looking at a Sunday service where the TPE connection from Bolton (to Glasgow) only allows 5 minutes at Oxenholme. In the event of the first TPE being delayed, would the "Windermere shuttle" TPE wait for it to arrive? The next train on a Sunday is two hours later hock: I don't think there's much in the way of facilities at Oxenholme either!

 

[Bob Ames]

Nope. I've been delayed on a Voyager to OXN several times recently, and the 185 has gone without me in all cases.

 

[mullin]

Any time I have done the journey from Wigan to Windermere of a morning, the connection from Virgin to TPE has generally always been poor. I'd say I usually make about 1 out of every 4 journeys successfully!

Announcements on the approach to Oxenholme from various TM's on Virgin saying TPE will hold the train and that the staff at Oxenholme are good at doing this never come to fruition in my experience - platform staff at Oxenholme say there is too tight a turnaround at Windermere, so it can't wait.


There is a bakery I am led to believe right outside of Oxenholme station, that's about it - not a great place to be stranded!

 

[trainophile]

Thanks folks, that's decided me. Sunday is out.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are the linespeeds so poor that only 1tph is possible between Oxenholme and Windermere? Obviously it'd be silly to run really regularly even if the infrastructure allowed because there wouldn't be the demand (and indeed it's only worth running as often as there's a connection on the mainline).

Perhaps there's a case for services like the Windermere branch to not be subject to the same rules regarding running on-time in terms of fines for late-running? At least as long as it continues to operate as a shuttle. There's little point in it running on-time if if it's empty because the mainline service that's carrying all it's would-be passengers hasn't arrived yet!

 

[trainophile]

I think it's only one tph because there's only one train, although I might be mistaken there.

Totally agree with all your other comments. Ludicrous to fine them for delay minutes when they are only late because they care about not letting passengers down.

 

[Eagle]

I've seen the TPE service held a couple of times for a late-running VT service, although in both cases the delay wasn't much, ten minutes or so.

As of the current timetable there are now quite a few through services to and from the Windermere branch, currently five a day mainly to Manchester Airport. If the service is held for a considerable time at Oxenholme, and then runs late, it might still be running late on the return from Windermere, and if it's a through service it might miss its slot on the WCML when it gets back to Oxenholme (which is only two-track at this point and has trains moving at various speeds). So that's something to consider.

I think it's only one tph because there's only one train, although I might be mistaken there.

Again, since there are now several through trains, the unit changes throughout the day.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks for clarifying Eagle. I remember now hearing the TM advising an American guy, who needed to get back to the airport, which train from Windermere would be best for him.

 

[Gd1992]

In my experience they only hold it if there is a number of people wanting the connection and the incoming service is only a few minutes later than the TPE train is due to depart.

I can't really remember but is the line not single track all the way? This would explain the irregular service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think it's only one tph because there's only one train, although I might be mistaken there.

Totally agree with all your other comments. Ludicrous to fine them for delay minutes when they are only late because they care about not letting passengers down.

I know there's only one unit allowed on the branch at any one time due to it effectively being a long siding, but what's the journey-time for a run down the branch and back? Are the 185s the best solution for the line long-term? Because it wouldn't surprise me if they're subject to speed restrictions compared to say a 156/158- could a sprinter fit in a more intensive service perhaps (at least if the through trains are cut back to being positioning moves at the start/end of day)?

I was under the impression there were very few through trains currently- seems strange they've reintroduced them when (many of) the other services they interwork with will be switching to electric traction (Manc-Scotland and Manc-Blackpool). Of course as Eagle stated, for the through services paths on the mainline are an unavoidable issue!

 

[mullin]

Yep, single all the way - there is also a level crossing with no barriers which I think the signs say 5mph for trains to cross at.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yep, single all the way - there is also a level crossing with no barriers which I think the signs say 5mph for trains to cross at.

But will affect all units of course. I was wondering if there might be problems specific to 185s like there is/was on the Hull line- such as a weak bridge? If so, perhaps in the longer term a 156/158 would be a better fit...

 

[Bob Ames]

I was under the impression there were very few through trains currently- seems strange they've reintroduced them when (many of) the other services they interwork with will be switching to electric traction (Manc-Scotland and Manc-Blackpool).

Funny you should mention that:
http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/10516130...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But will affect all units of course. I was wondering if there might be problems specific to 185s like there is/was on the Hull line- such as a weak bridge? If so, perhaps in the longer term a 156/158 would be a better fit...

Oh lordy, we don't want to go back to Sprinters. The 185s are well-suited to carry all the luggage and bikes of tourists.

 

[455driver]

Totally agree with all your other comments. Ludicrous to fine them for delay minutes when they are only late because they care about not letting passengers down.

But all the surveys say that the passengers want the trains to run on time so they cant really complain about missing it can they!

I always ask what is most important, an on time train with half the passengers left behind or a ten minute late train with everyone on board!
Never got an answer to that one.

 

[IanXC]

But will affect all units of course. I was wondering if there might be problems specific to 185s like there is/was on the Hull line- such as a weak bridge? If so, perhaps in the longer term a 156/158 would be a better fit...

There is no "weak bridge problem" between Leeds and Hull.

TPE use 170s because there are a few Sprinter Differential speed limits which allow late running services to make up time as compared to a 185.

 

[Tomnick]

The folk waiting for the return working to Oxenholme will be a little dischuffed if that ends up ten minutes late too though, and they miss their connection as a result! Obviously that depends a lot on the time of day (and flow of punters in each direction) and the turnaround at the terminus.

 

[yorkie]

I'm wondering whether the TPE was deliberately delayed, knowing that the VT would be full of passengers for Windermere.

No. You make the mistake of thinking that, due to the huge subsidy we pay, the railways are primarily run for the benefit of passengers. That isn't the case, though it should be.

However in Cornwall, the branch line trains do wait where possible, I've seen this myself. But that's only because they're the same TOC (FGW).

Where it's a different TOC, the priority for the respective TOCs is not passengers, but money. The system we have rewards the onward TOC for delaying many passengers by another hour as they can blame the incoming TOC for being late (who can probably in turn blame Network Rail or another TOC).

There are many people paid a lot of money (far more than I'm on) whose job it is to save their Company money by 'delay attribution'. Those people do not want their TOC to wait, because they get more money if they do not wait. The incoming TOC loses money, but the rail industry does like to self-destruct and not everyone wants the best for the industry as a whole, especially not the accountants at individual TOCs.

But all the surveys say that the passengers want the trains to run on time so they cant really complain about missing it can they!

People want trains to run to time, but over a journey like London to Windermere, within 10 mins is pretty much on time in most people's eyes. But 60 mins late isn't.

I always ask what is most important, an on time train with half the passengers left behind or a ten minute late train with everyone on board!
Never got an answer to that one.

The former is better for the onward TOC, as it is the inbound TOC who will be paying the compensation to passengers.

The latter is better for the industry as a whole.

Therefore, the former is what usually happens.

 

[455driver]

However in Cornwall, the branch line trains do wait where possible, I've seen this myself. But that's only because they're the same TOC (FGW).

FGW always seem to hold connections where it is practicable, even when its an XC which is running late.
Some TOCs wont even hold their own trains to make a connection because "we dont do connections" apparently.

Agree with the rest of your post Yorkie.

 

[harz99]

I ask because I'm now looking at a Sunday service where the TPE connection from Bolton (to Glasgow) only allows 5 minutes at Oxenholme. In the event of the first TPE being delayed, would the "Windermere shuttle" TPE wait for it to arrive? The next train on a Sunday is two hours later hock: I don't think there's much in the way of facilities at Oxenholme either!

I would think that there would be at least an "evens" chance of the connection being held as long as the delay is not excessive. They are both TPE services after all, and both sets of on train staff would be aware of the importance of connections to "their" passengers.

 

[CC 72100]

FGW always seem to hold connections where it is practicable, even when its an XC which is running late.
Some TOCs wont even hold their own trains to make a connection because "we dont do connections" apparently.

They did have posters at one station (either Truro or St Erth I think) saying that they won't hold connections due to the lack of recovery time in the schedules on the branches, especially for people coming off the branch to make a long distance service North. In reality however, I think that's just a 'covering their own back' exercise, for the day when they can't hold a connection.

Recently I was on a train that was about 30 late and going to miss the Newquay branch connection (the most infrequent/ longest branch of them all), so the TM went through the train asking for a headcount of people for Newquay so that he could advise control on how big a bus was needed for a shuttle to run from St Austell. Fair play on that one FGW.

 

[455driver]

Hence the "where practicable" in my post, sometimes it simply isnt possible to hold trains no matter how much you would like too.

 

[W230]

Yep, single all the way - there is also a level crossing with no barriers which I think the signs say 5mph for trains to cross at.

I'm (fairly) sure the branch is run under one train working, with the shuttle just going backwards and forwards all day long.

I did use it once on a Sunday, though I took the first service which started in passenger service from Lancaster and then did all the runs until the end of the day.

 

[Tomnick]

The branch is OTW (with a staff?), but there are (for now at least) a handful of through trains each day.

 

[D6975]

They did have posters at one station (either Truro or St Erth I think) saying that they won't hold connections due to the lack of recovery time in the schedules on the branches, especially for people coming off the branch to make a long distance service North..

I saw these notices at St Erth when I was visiting St Ives recently. The services on a weekday run down and back constantly, two return trips an hour with very little turnaround time. Holding connections just isn't practical in this case.
They even miss out Carbis Bay on alternate runs to make the 2tph frequency possible.

 

[Dunc108]

There was talk at one time of installing a passing loop on the branch to allow more trains, electrification has also been rumoured several times over the years but have come to nothing...

Through trains seem to have been culled over the course of various timetables as more 185s were focused on Scottish services.

 

[Eagle]

There was talk at one time of installing a passing loop on the branch to allow more trains, electrification has also been rumoured several times over the years but have come to nothing...

Actually a study into electrification was announced at the spending review last month. It's widely expected that the branch will be electrified in the medium term.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Wasn't Oxenholme-Windermere once considered for overhead juicing near the end of BR, or have I just imagined that?

On a related note to connections, I'm sure Chiltern used to (they may still even) advise in their timetable notes that they will try and hold northbound trains at Princes Risborough for services ex-Aylesbury but they cannot do it southbound (it could well be vice versa!).

 

[Dunc108]

Actually a study into electrification was announced at the spending review last month. It's widely expected that the branch will be electrified in the medium term.

Before any wires go up they'll have to alter the various bridges first, some have been quite thickly re-lined, especially Plantation bridge near Staveley which 185s have a speed restriction passing under from the Burneside direction..

 

[Eagle]

Before any wires go up they'll have to alter the various bridges first...

Uh, that's true of all electrification projects.

And surely that's one of the things that the study will look at, which bridges will need to be modified or rebuilt to accommodate the wires.

 

[Starmill]

The former is better for the onward TOC, as it is the inbound TOC who will be paying the compensation to passengers.

The latter is better for the industry as a whole.

Therefore, the former is what usually happens.

Tragedy of the Commons?