TPE Scottish services

[BMIFlyer]

Sounds like the same standard of some of Northern 142s and 150s.

No comment

 

[fowler9]

Lets address the main problem, people commuting from city to city whilst trying to have some kind of home life near their family in a house they can actually afford. The problem isn't transport, it is affordable property for both business and families. I commuted in to Birchwood to work in Vodafone with people who commuted in from Leeds. This is ridiculous. Given how sh*t the IT was at the Vodafone office I doubt the service would be any worse if we worked fro home.

 

[gray1404]

So does it often happen that if the TPE Scottish services a doubled up, they have to skip out Oxford Road? I am sure that causes a lot of problems for passenger. Why can't they have selective door opening.

 

[route101]

Indeed. They are supposed to have 2 sets of refreshed mk3s and some 68s for three purposes:
1. Providing extra capacity for special events - surely the Edinburgh festival classes as a special event even if it works out better to put the mk3s on Liverpool to Newcastle and to use some freed up 185s doubled up on Scottish services.
2. Ensuring enhancements happen on time even if the new trains are not yet ready for passenger service.
3. Training drivers on using 68 hauled coaches so the process of getting the mk5 sets in to revenue earning service is speeded up.

Rake of MK3 on Scottish services would do nicely .Or mk5s

 

[CC 72100]

So does it often happen that if the TPE Scottish services a doubled up, they have to skip out Oxford Road? I am sure that causes a lot of problems for passenger. Why can't they have selective door opening.

No - unit de-select. A 444/450/350 trained Guard will be able to fill in the details, but in brief the front unit will be able to open all doors and the rear 4 will not be released.

 

[AndrewE]

If there's one train per hour from Victoria then TPE will lose a load of passengers. Currently my local service is 1 per hour and goes in to Piccadilly - the current TPE frequency means if I'm going to Huddersfield, Leeds or York then I never have to wait almost an hour for a connecting train in the northbound train. If the regular frequency and direct services from Piccadilly were removed I probably wouldn't use North TPE unless I can avoid it and I imagine others would do the same. How much spare capacity is there on the M62?

I'm not suggesting reducing the whole service to 1 train an hour via Vic (if that's what you mean) or even reducing the current number of via-Victoria trains.
I meant give us one long train an hour - perhaps replacing 1 of the current services via Piccadilly - that would a) act as a long-distance queue buster, b) guarantee that westbound seats would be available leaving Leeds (by skipping Huddersfield), c) would release a unit to strengthen another service on the route.

I have nothing against Huddersfield, or any wish to deprive its inhabitants of the opportunity to commute to Leeds, but it's not good when long-distance passengers can't get on because of the press of passengers just going to the next stop. Hfield should really be a "u" stop on these services (except for passengers from York and N thereof) but this seems to be unenforceable nowadays..

 

[47271]

So does it often happen that if the TPE Scottish services a doubled up, they have to skip out Oxford Road? I am sure that causes a lot of problems for passenger. Why can't they have selective door opening.

Driver9000 already explained in #81.

The very worst that happens is that they don't open the doors on one of the two units. I experienced this last week - all the way from Piccadilly to Oxford Road the guard urged occupants of the rear four to move forward.

 

[Jamesrob637]

They are in a bad state of repair and one even has a hole in the roof.

Really? Local janners using it for firing practice? Lol

(Janner - Plymothian)

That's not good though, whichever way

 

[gray1404]

Driver9000 already explained in #81.

The very worst that happens is that they don't open the doors on one of the two units. I experienced this last week - all the way from Piccadilly to Oxford Road the guard urged occupants of the rear four to move forward.

Thank you both! Well, provided the information is clearly communicated to customers then that is workable.

 

[158756]

I have nothing against Huddersfield, or any wish to deprive its inhabitants of the opportunity to commute to Leeds, but it's not good when long-distance passengers can't get on because of the press of passengers just going to the next stop. Hfield should really be a "u" stop on these services (except for passengers from York and N thereof) but this seems to be unenforceable nowadays..

The solution to longer distance passengers not being able to get on is longer trains, such as the 5 coach trains on order, though longer might be better in future.

Huddersfield sits a few places below Slough in the latest estimates of passenger numbers. GWR don't stop all their express trains at Slough. But the line has capacity (i.e. 4 tracks) to run a frequent stopping service in addition to those expresses which do call. The suggestion Slough should only have a 1tph stopper would be absurd. But there is no space on the Transpennine route for a frequent stopper, so the regional trains must stop at Huddersfield. Or the regional trains must be reduced to 1tph to allow a frequent stopper, which would solve the problem of TPE overcrowding by moving the longer distance passengers to the M62.

 

[northwichcat]

Rake of MK3 on Scottish services would do nicely .Or mk5s

I was thinking pathing loco-hauled might be more of an issue on the WCML than on North TPE.

 

[northwichcat]

I have nothing against Huddersfield, or any wish to deprive its inhabitants of the opportunity to commute to Leeds, but it's not good when long-distance passengers can't get on because of the press of passengers just going to the next stop. Hfield should really be a "u" stop on these services (except for passengers from York and N thereof) but this seems to be unenforceable nowadays..

So you want a York service to be able to pick up York passengers at Huddersfield but not Leeds passengers. On that basis if someone at Huddersfield buys an Edinburgh ticket are they barred from changing at Leeds but allowed to change at York? Or if it's only tickets between Huddersfield and Leeds would that also exclude a passenger with a Lockwood to Leeds ticket from using North TPE or would you produce a long list of which tickets can and can't be used?

 

[xotGD]

In the morning the TPE from Dewsbury to Hudds is rammed with youngsters on their way to college. Passengers are often left behind - and teenagers are more able to force their way on than pensioners. They (the students) should be on the near-empty 144 that gets overtaken on the way. Advertise the train as first stop Stalybridge at Dewsbury.

 

[northwichcat]

In the morning the TPE from Dewsbury to Hudds is rammed with youngsters on their way to college. Passengers are often left behind - and teenagers are more able to force their way on than pensioners. They (the students) should be on the near-empty 144 that gets overtaken on the way. Advertise the train as first stop Stalybridge at Dewsbury.

Alternative to your idea - Northern to introduce scholars tickets which aren't valid on TPE but which undercut the price of season tickets which are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alternative to your idea - Northern to introduce scholars tickets which aren't valid on TPE but which undercut the price of season tickets which are.

Or we consider an IC-supplement generally. But that would require planning a proper hierarchical service.

 

[Senex]

Or we consider an IC-supplement generally. But that would require planning a proper hierarchical service.

We can but dream. The proper hierarchical service would involve the English equivalents of IC, IR/RE, and RB services, an infrastructure on which they could run, and—dare one even suggest it—a Taktfahrplan so that the services, and even the local buses, connected with each other. But all of that is not really possible without a society that believes that local transport is a public good and worth subsidising. Until that all comes, maybe company-specific fares to keep the very short distance passengers off the long-distance trains are the best way of doing it.

(And to your earlier comment about Manchester-Sheffield services: they're so painfully slow and the EMT ones don't even have any first class to be comfortable in.)

 

[AndrewE]

So you want a York service to be able to pick up York passengers at Huddersfield but not Leeds passengers. On that basis if someone at Huddersfield buys an Edinburgh ticket are they barred from changing at Leeds but allowed to change at York? Or if it's only tickets between Huddersfield and Leeds would that also exclude a passenger with a Lockwood to Leeds ticket from using North TPE or would you produce a long list of which tickets can and can't be used?

No, the problem is westbound out of Leeds, and I was suggesting that one of the several-an-hour trains on the route was longer and loco-hauled, and [westbound] either did not call at Huddersfield, or if it did, called only to set down passengers from east of Leeds - and it might as well pick up too I suppose. It's not an uncommon restriction, maybe more often seen on the continent though..
In words of almost one syllable:
"You cannot get on this train at Leeds if you are only staying on as far as Huddersfield" Leeds joiners getting off at Huddersfield would be excessed to Manchester.

 

[Starmill]

The temporary use of the 350/3 was to provide cover for the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow, not the Edinburgh Festival in the first instance - they were simply kept on a couple of weeks longer and shuffled around a bit to allow some extra capacity in that year.

The key thing that did it was the Commonwealth Games though, en event of international significance and a large degree of forward planning. Edinburgh Festival happens every year - and every year it is a nightmare. What are you going to do about it? East Coast run 9 car trains and yet at the end of the festival they leave Edinburgh full and standing in all 9 cars.

There is more of a problem here than I think most people have realised. Even without the Edinburgh festival there are 8 car trains that leave Manchester Oxford Road with lots of people standing, and still have standees until after Preston. The 1800 from Manchester Airport on a Friday is always full.

 

[Starmill]

No, the problem is westbound out of Leeds, and I was suggesting that one of the several-an-hour trains on the route was longer and loco-hauled, and [westbound] either did not call at Huddersfield, or if it did, called only to set down passengers from east of Leeds - and it might as well pick up too I suppose. It's not an uncommon restriction, maybe more often seen on the continent though..
In words of almost one syllable:
"You cannot get on this train at Leeds if you are only staying on as far as Huddersfield" Leeds joiners getting off at Huddersfield would be excessed to Manchester.

How are you going to know who got on at Leeds and who got on at York?

 

[AndrewE]

How are you going to know who got on at Leeds and who got on at York?

You look at their ticket. (that's how it used to work anyway.)

 

[Starmill]

You look at their ticket. (that's how it used to work anyway.)

What if their destination is Penistone and their origin is Poppleton? Does your idea mean this person requires an excess or not? If they do, what to? How much is it? And how do they then complete their journey?

 

[cle]

Let's punish people for using the rail service for their needs... stupid. Divisive. Blame-focused. Typical of this country at the moment.

How about aiming to serving them better, i.e. better timetable spacing or stopping patterns, longer trains...solutions...

 

[northwichcat]

In words of almost one syllable:
"You cannot get on this train at Leeds if you are only staying on as far as Huddersfield" Leeds joiners getting off at Huddersfield would be excessed to Manchester.

Saying it should only apply in one direction:
1. Doesn't make sense - is it because you want to get between Manchester and Leeds and don't care if someone at Huddersfield wanting Scarborough can't board the Scarborough train?
2. Doesn't make the points I raised irrelevant. If your journey was Berwick to Marsden and you had caught a XC service from Berwick to Leeds and needed to catch the next TPE service to Huddersfield to avoid a 1 hour wait at Huddersfield, would you be allowed to travel on that train between Leeds and Huddersfield only or not?

 

[driver9000]

What on earth has Leeds, York and Penistone line crowding got to do with a thread relating to Scottish services??

 

[northwichcat]

What on earth has Leeds, York and Penistone line crowding got to do with a thread relating to Scottish services??

It has drifted from the original topic. However, if you replace Huddersfield with Bolton then similar arguments will apply to the Scottish services.

I don't think anyone's mentioned Penistone line overcrowding but mentioned a ticket issued to/from Penistone station as an example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It'd be easier to do with the Scottish services - just use pick-up/set down only on all stations south/east of Wigan and keep them as pure IC services. Run a local just behind.

 

[AndrewE]

Saying it should only apply in one direction:
1. Doesn't make sense - is it because you want to get between Manchester and Leeds and don't care if someone at Huddersfield wanting Scarborough can't board the Scarborough train?
2. Doesn't make the points I raised irrelevant. If your journey was Berwick to Marsden and you had caught a XC service from Berwick to Leeds and needed to catch the next TPE service to Huddersfield to avoid a 1 hour wait at Huddersfield, would you be allowed to travel on that train between Leeds and Huddersfield only or not?

For God's sake read the earlier posts. I don't (usually) have a problem Manchester to Leeds. It's nothing to do with Manchester to Leeds, which bit of that can't you understand? I am proposing the change for 1 train an hour westbound only. What has this got to do with Huddersfield to Scarborough? Why does a restriction to address a problem have to be symmetrical if the problem isn't? [Of course it doesn't.]

I agree Berwick to Leeds / change for Huddersfield for Marsden is bad luck, but it didn't stop BR or continental railways using the system to keep space free for long-distance travellers out of cities in the evening peak.

 

[AndrewE]

It has drifted from the original topic. However, if you replace Huddersfield with Bolton then similar arguments will apply to the Scottish services.

So make the Manchester airport to Scotland services pick-up only after Picc as far as Chorley, or Preston (wherever works) except for passengers from the airport.

 

[AndrewE]

Let's punish people for using the rail service for their needs... stupid. Divisive. Blame-focused. Typical of this country at the moment.

How about aiming to serving them better, i.e. better timetable spacing or stopping patterns, longer trains...solutions...

All that would be nice, but how do you propose to help long-distance passengers who can't get on a train because of 1-stop commuters? Who is being stupid, divisive or blame-focused?

I'm saying that there is a well-established railway precedent that deals with this specific issue and I'm sorry that nowadays we in the UK are too hidebound, incompetent or timid to consider using it.

 

[northwichcat]

For God's sake read the earlier posts. I don't (usually) have a problem Manchester to Leeds. It's nothing to do with Manchester to Leeds, I am proposing the change for 1 train an hour westbound What has this got to do with Huddersfield to Scarborough?

I've read your posts but your proposal makes no sense. If you want long distance passengers to have priority then it has to apply in both directions, otherwise it is a completely unfair system.

As I already explained eastbound a Huddersfield-Scarborough might be prevented from boarding at the expense of passengers making shorter journeys (including the Manchester to Leeds journey you're making!) Your proposal is effectively "Prevent passengers who are making shorter journeys than me westbound from boarding so there's a seat for me and I don't care if passengers making even longer journeys than myself eastbound are unable to board." The railway isn't run for the benefit of you. If you want a service which is then get a taxi instead.