TPE Scottish services

[Shaw S Hunter]

Which ought to be catered for by local services, not by stopping trains linking four of our major cities.

And the fact that it is treated as what the Germans would call an RE service rather than as an IC service is what makes it so unattractive to longer-distance passengers.

Did you understand my point about track capacity? On the current network there simply isn't enough room to have both genuine inter-city services and stopping services meaning we have the current compromise service. We need more tracks!

 

[AndrewE]

There would be no real advantage to skipping Huddersfield.

There certainly would! Passengers for further afield would be less likely to be left standing on the platform at Leeds. It's happened to me more than once, reserved seat or no!

 

[AndrewE]

Did you understand my point about track capacity? On the current network there simply isn't enough room to have both genuine inter-city services and stopping services meaning we have the current compromise service. We need more tracks!

I think that smart timetabling can deliver quite a bit in the way of of capacity enhancements, but that depends on a unified railway trying to get the best out of what infrastructure is available.

Unfortunately with several franchises on one route all trying to stitch the up their opposition and maximise their own bottom lines I don't think we shall see it in the forseeable future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There certainly would! Passengers for further afield would be less likely to be left standing on the platform at Leeds. It's happened to me more than once, reserved seat or no!

It wouldn't happen with trains of a proper length. The length of the trains is the fundamental problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did you understand my point about track capacity? On the current network there simply isn't enough room to have both genuine inter-city services and stopping services meaning we have the current compromise service. We need more tracks!

No, we need to stop running stupid little DMUs and EMUs around and run trains of a proper length (doing the small infrastructure changes needed to make them possible) - just as is done in the South East.

Even the 5-car ones on order are really too short unless run in pairs. We should be looking at trains of *at least* 200m.

 

[AndrewE]

The posts on this thread remind me of the quote 'build it and they will come'. A service at a decent frequency and speed has transformed the market between Manchester and Scotland, as it has from Birmingham also. We have also got the growth of longer-distance commuting (perhaps not every day), and the changed employment profile, creating a situation where rail is crucial to functioning of a series of cities in a way that it wasn't even 20-30 years ago. Then, it was only London and Glasgow, and I suppose Liverpool; now we add Birmingham Manchester, Leeds/Bradford, Bristol, Cardiff, even Edinburgh.

Fortunately the future growth can be accommodated by running longer trains, not more trains, which will reduce the need for subsidy. Once you are operating 5-6 coaches, you are beginning to make a serious contribution to transport ecosystem.

I think BR recognised that it took about 5 years for a new service to get up to its expected use. People have to find it, hear about it, try it out and learn to trust it - and if it's a commuter service, it takes time to buy a house on a line conveniently situated for where you work!

 

[AndrewE]

It wouldn't happen with trains of a proper length. The length of the trains is the fundamental problem.

Agreed. Please tell us how long (i.e how many weeks it is) before any extra coaches arrive? In the meantime give us a 6 or 8-coach loco-hauled train once an hour (that needn't call at Huddersfield, and could probably run via Man Vic) and release the DMUs to strengthen other services... NOW!

I have just realised that this trans-pennine capacity debate is in the TPE Scottish services thread!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Agreed. Please tell us how long (i.e how many weeks it is) before any extra coaches arrive? In the meantime give us a 6 or 8-coach loco-hauled train once an hour (that needn't call at Huddersfield, and could probably run via Man Vic) and release the DMUs to strengthen other services... NOW!

I have just realised that this trans-pennine capacity debate is in the TPE Scottish services thread!

What's with the hate for Huddersfield? And do you really think that part of the solution is a massive reduction in services between Leeds and Manchester? Or perhaps you're a frustrated loco-basher who misses the old trans-Pennine service of just a single train each hour across the Pennines but that was ok because it was loco-hauled and not a DMU.

Yes we need a lot more carriages on a lot of services all around the north but if we want decent frequencies, and I don't think there's much support for reductions, and some properly fast trains as well then more tracks have to be provided too. Bottom line, as often stated in more general discussions, is that there has been a failure to invest in the north (and elsewhere) over a long period of time and we now find ourselves with a lot of catching up to do.

 

[Class 170101]

That only happened because the 350/3s hadn't entered service with LM and at the time were not needed. Transpennine used them as part of the commissioning programme.

I know about that.

I was suggesting perhaps tongue in cheek that perhaps TPE should do it again.

Perhaps some 350/2s released by Class 319s covering their duties?

 

[daodao]

What's with the hate for Huddersfield? And do you really think that part of the solution is a massive reduction in services between Leeds and Manchester? Or perhaps you're a frustrated loco-basher who misses the old trans-Pennine service of just a single train each hour across the Pennines but that was ok because it was loco-hauled and not a DMU.

Yes we need a lot more carriages on a lot of services all around the north but if we want decent frequencies, and I don't think there's much support for reductions, and some properly fast trains as well then more tracks have to be provided too. Bottom line, as often stated in more general discussions, is that there has been a failure to invest in the north (and elsewhere) over a long period of time and we now find ourselves with a lot of catching up to do.

Following dieselisation, BR services were hourly from Liverpool to Leeds, with the trains running every 2 hours to Hull and Newcastle alternately. The Hull services were operated by Class 124 6-car DMUs built specifically for the trans-Pennine route. They were quite comfortable inter-city style trains, with 1st class and a buffet car.

 

[gray1404]

On the Scottish TPE services is there a standard open coach without seat reservations?

 

[driver9000]

On the Scottish TPE services is there a standard open coach without seat reservations?

The seats around the catering bay in coach C tend to be left unreserved and are not numbered.

 

[Altfish]

I fairly regularly travel on this route mainly between Manchester and Lockerbie.
The trains are always crowded, very often standing room only.
If I'm coming from Manchester and have time, I'll often get to the Airport (even if it means going in the wrong direction from MCO or MAN) to get myself a seat before the bun-fight that occurs at Piccadilly and Oxford Road.
It is obviously worse when the Festival is on in Edinburgh...but that shouldn't affect the Glasgow trains.
One problem is that if you double up the 350/4s they can't stop at MCO as they are too long.
6-carriage trains should be the norm on this route

 

[northwichcat]

There certainly would! Passengers for further afield would be less likely to be left standing on the platform at Leeds. It's happened to me more than once, reserved seat or no!

If you're reducing the number of services calling at Huddersfield then that'll increase the number of Huddersfield passengers boarding other services. Currently the Liverpool to Newcastle services seem to have more space available for Huddersfield passengers than Liverpool to Scarborough, so if you're going to remove Huddersfield passengers from one service to leave more space for other passengers then Liverpool to Newcastle is the wrong service to pick.

As for passengers left standing at Leeds that happened to me twice (late afternoon/early evening on weekdays) so I'm aware of it. However, on one occasion the service in question was 12 minutes late and most passengers insisted on cramming on the train at the platform despite the CIS showing the next train was on time (in 3 minutes.) I caught the second train and there were loads of empty seats!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for passengers left standing at Leeds that happened to me twice (late afternoon/early evening on weekdays) so I'm aware of it. However, on one occasion the service in question was 12 minutes late and most passengers insisted on cramming on the train at the platform despite the CIS showing the next train was on train (in 3 minutes.) I caught that train and there were loads of empty seats!

A train in the platform is worth 2 on the departure board.

 

[northwichcat]

Agreed. Please tell us how long (i.e how many weeks it is) before any extra coaches arrive? In the meantime give us a 6 or 8-coach loco-hauled train once an hour (that needn't call at Huddersfield, and could probably run via Man Vic) and release the DMUs to strengthen other services... NOW!

If there's one train per hour from Victoria then TPE will lose a load of passengers. Currently my local service is 1 per hour and goes in to Piccadilly - the current TPE frequency means if I'm going to Huddersfield, Leeds or York then I never have to wait almost an hour for a connecting train in the northbound train. If the regular frequency and direct services from Piccadilly were removed I probably wouldn't use North TPE unless I can avoid it and I imagine others would do the same. How much spare capacity is there on the M62?

 

[northwichcat]

I know about that.

I was suggesting perhaps tongue in cheek that perhaps TPE should do it again.

Perhaps some 350/2s released by Class 319s covering their duties?

I can't see Govia loaning First some of their most reliable EMUs in exchange for a loan of some less reliable EMUs unless DfT force them and offer something they want as part of the deal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see Govia loaning First some of their most reliable EMUs in exchange for a loan of some less reliable EMUs unless DfT force them and offer something they want as part of the deal.

Twice as many 319s would probably do. Or maybe TPE could use some 319s. Unlike 350s (/1, /2 and /3) they have proper (VERY comfortable) 2+1 first class

 

[47271]

One problem is that if you double up the 350/4s they can't stop at MCO as they are too long.

Not quite, 2x350 can stop at Oxford Road but they only open the doors on one of the two units.

 

[47271]

The seats around the catering bay in coach C tend to be left unreserved and are not numbered.

Likewise there are always six seats left unreserved in First Class, a table of four and a two immediately across the aisle closest to one of the vestibule doors.

I haven't studied the actual seat numbers to be absolutely sure, but I've always assumed that TPE First Class reservation layouts are interchangeable between 185s and 350s?

 

[driver9000]

Not quite, 2x350 can stop at Oxford Road but they only open the doors on one of the two units.

All Down trains must have rear set locked but Up trains can open fully if they are routed into platform 4 where they just fit.

 

[driver9000]

Likewise there are always six seats left unreserved in First Class, a table of four and a two immediately across the aisle closest to one of the vestibule doors.

I haven't studied the actual seat numbers to be absolutely sure, but I've always assumed that TPE First Class reservation layouts are interchangeable between 185s and 350s?

More or less interchangeable although the layout differs slightly between the two cabins. The 350 has more 1st class seating too.

 

[route101]

On the Scottish TPE services is there a standard open coach without seat reservations?

What i was wondering as whenever i get on a TPE 350 its rammed with people getting and lots a reservation labels

 

[47271]

The 350 has more 1st class seating too.

That's what I mean, the six unreserveds look to me like they're the difference in capacity between 185 and 350.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I've just seen the 16:00 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh and it's a pair of 185s today. 350s needed elsewhere?

Altered workings / diagrams yesterday for Bank Holiday Monday - to enable TPE to carry as many passengers as possible from Edinburgh some 4 car trains became 6 cars and others became 8 cars. Most notably the 1812 from EDB is normally a 4 car train and was changed to 8 cars yesterday and departed completely full.

Was only possible due to having spare units because of various engineering works taking place on certain routes.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Agreed. Please tell us how long (i.e how many weeks it is) before any extra coaches arrive? In the meantime give us a 6 or 8-coach loco-hauled train once an hour (that needn't call at Huddersfield, and could probably run via Man Vic) and release the DMUs to strengthen other services... NOW!

I have just realised that this trans-pennine capacity debate is in the TPE Scottish services thread!

Can't be done now as you demand and won't be done at the earliest until May or June next year when the new loco hauled trains arrive. As for skipping Huddersfield? No. A moot point also is that you'd need to rework the timetable to fit an 8 coach train onto the eastbound platforms at Huddersfield, unless doors are locked out which then negates the use of 2 coaches and so makes your plan a waste of time.

Amending the TPE safety case to hire in ad hoc mk3's etc with locos just to satisfy a few people won't be happening.

The TPE Scottish route new trains arrive at the end of next year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They've got some Mk3s, they are just failing to use them.

 

[BMIFlyer]

They've got some Mk3s, they are just failing to use them.

They are in a bad state of repair and one even has a hole in the roof.

 

[northwichcat]

They've got some Mk3s, they are just failing to use them.

Indeed. They are supposed to have 2 sets of refreshed mk3s and some 68s for three purposes:
1. Providing extra capacity for special events - surely the Edinburgh festival classes as a special event even if it works out better to put the mk3s on Liverpool to Newcastle and to use some freed up 185s doubled up on Scottish services.
2. Ensuring enhancements happen on time even if the new trains are not yet ready for passenger service.
3. Training drivers on using 68 hauled coaches so the process of getting the mk5 sets in to revenue earning service is speeded up.

 

[northwichcat]

They are in a bad state of repair and one even has a hole in the roof.

Sounds like the same standard of some of Northern 142s and 150s.