TPE Scottish services

[Bletchleyite]

Well, or with a bit of joined up thinking between Virgin and Scotrail, promotional fares via Glasgow during the Festival? There's plenty of capacity both on the Glasgow Pendolinos and between Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Okay, it would take longer, but what would you rather do, stand from Preston to Edinburgh, or sit over two legs with a change in Glasgow?

It's worth a try if it's really that bad.

Yeah, with some talking between TOCs you could certainly skew the flows quite substantially with some well-priced Advances.

 

[anti-pacer]

Well, or with a bit of joined up thinking between Virgin and Scotrail, promotional fares via Glasgow during the Festival? There's plenty of capacity both on the Glasgow Pendolinos and between Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Okay, it would take longer, but what would you rather do, stand from Preston to Edinburgh, or sit over two legs with a change in Glasgow?

It's worth a try if it's really that bad.

Or even stop the Pendolino's at Carstairs and allow onward travel on Scotrail to Edinburgh, subject to the timings being right.

I'm not sure if Scotrail have or could hire extra stock to run a shuttle from Carstairs, in the case of the above timings not being great.

 

[Philip]

Perhaps there's a more simple reason for the increasing business of the route; more services, with superior trains and cheaper fares means a better rail service for the route and so more people are prepared to use the train to get between these places as a result.

Hypothetically, if the DfT decided to scrap all Manchester-Scotland services, then obviously the Virgin services would be busier, but the majority of people would either take to their cars or even fly. A lot of people are put off by changing trains, so having more direct trains on the route is bound to cause an increase in passenger numbers.

 

[route101]

Perhaps there's a more simple reason for the increasing business of the route; more services, with superior trains and cheaper fares means a better rail service for the route and so more people are prepared to use the train to get between these places as a result.

Hypothetically, if the DfT decided to scrap all Manchester-Scotland services, then obviously the Virgin services would be busier, but the majority of people would either take to their cars or even fly. A lot of people are put off by changing trains, so having more direct trains on the route is bound to cause an increase in passenger numbers.

I think now rail has taken most of market from Air , not so many flights Manchester to GLA/EDI now .

 

[InOban]

The posts on this thread remind me of the quote 'build it and they will come'. A service at a decent frequency and speed has transformed the market between Manchester and Scotland, as it has from Birmingham also. We have also got the growth of longer-distance commuting (perhaps not every day), and the changed employment profile, creating a situation where rail is crucial to functioning of a series of cities in a way that it wasn't even 20-30 years ago. Then, it was only London and Glasgow, and I suppose Liverpool; now we add Birmingham Manchester, Leeds/Bradford, Bristol, Cardiff, even Edinburgh.

Fortunately the future growth can be accommodated by running longer trains, not more trains, which will reduce the need for subsidy. Once you are operating 5-6 coaches, you are beginning to make a serious contribution to transport ecosystem.

 

[fowler9]

London Midland don't operate services to Carlisle. Do you mean TPE?

I did mate, my bad. Just thinking of 350's. Ha ha.

 

[Senex]

The posts on this thread remind me of the quote 'build it and they will come'. A service at a decent frequency and speed has transformed the market between Manchester and Scotland, as it has from Birmingham also. We have also got the growth of longer-distance commuting (perhaps not every day), and the changed employment profile, creating a situation where rail is crucial to functioning of a series of cities in a way that it wasn't even 20-30 years ago. Then, it was only London and Glasgow, and I suppose Liverpool; now we add Birmingham Manchester, Leeds/Bradford, Bristol, Cardiff, even Edinburgh.

Fortunately the future growth can be accommodated by running longer trains, not more trains, which will reduce the need for subsidy. Once you are operating 5-6 coaches, you are beginning to make a serious contribution to transport ecosystem.

I'd disagree with you about speed—at well over three hours these are still slow trains between Manchester and Glasgow/Edinburgh. But they have indeed proved the point that the market was there if at least a moderately-attractive service is offered. The problem is that TPE was shafted from the start by not being allowed to obtain trains with adequate capacity for the future growth, so that both on its Scotland services and its TP services it all too often offers pretty dreadful travelling conditions for a long-distance service. And that's down to DfT. (The only other TOC in a very comparable position is XC, where the Voyagers offer totally inadequate capacity on many services, but that one can't be put down to DfT.)

 

[daodao]

The TPE franchise should be broken up.

The NW England-Scotland services should be run by VTWC, using better quality Inter-City rolling stock with refreshment facilities, as in BR days, but with improved punctuality.

The Standedge services should be given to Northern and operated as Northern Connect services without 1st class, but not running north of Newcastle, where they duplicate VTEC and XC.

TPE Hope Valley services should be passed to EMT, who should also take over services via Worksop from Northern.

 

[InOban]

It's not fast, but faster, and a lot more frequent, and frequency is the basis of a successful route. Bear in mind that a lot of the business is to and from intermediate stations, poorly served by VTEC.

 

[Senex]

The Standedge services should be given to Northern and operated as Northern Connect services without 1st class, but not running north of Newcastle, where they duplicate VTEC and XC.

Liverpool to Newcastle merits a proper inter-city-style service, complete with first class, every bit as much as Birmingham to Newcastle does.

 

[Senex]

It's not fast, but faster, and a lot more frequent, and frequency is the basis of a successful route. Bear in mind that a lot of the business is to and from intermediate stations, poorly served by VTEC.

So integrate the timetabling with Virgin West Coast so that Manchester (and in future Liverpool too) get their share of fast trains along with Birmingham, and some of Birmingham's trains take on the business of serving those intermediate stations and being decelerated accordingly.

 

[Andyh82]

The TPE franchise should be broken up.

The NW England-Scotland services should be run by VTWC, using better quality Inter-City rolling stock with refreshment facilities, as in BR days, but with improved punctuality.

The Standedge services should be given to Northern and operated as Northern Connect services without 1st class, but not running north of Newcastle, where they duplicate VTEC and XC.

TPE Hope Valley services should be passed to EMT, who should also take over services via Worksop from Northern.

I don't agree with most of that, but since the other 'north west' routes were transferred over to Northern, it makes no logical sense for the Scotland services to be run by TPE. The only bit it has in common with the rest of their network is between the Airport and Piccadilly. If VTWC ran it, it would be able to fit in and be run as one consistent package all the way from Preston to Scotland.

 

[northwichcat]

One thing I noticed about these services is what a state they get in. The train going up resembled a rubbish tip, and judging by what I saw before boarding the train coming back, the cleaners at Waverley were busy clearing up another reminiscence of a war zone. Are North West passengers just messy or something?

Are you sure it wasn't the Scottish passengers creating a mess. The Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Cumbria trains have always been clean and tidy when I've used them.

Have I just been unlucky today or are these services now a victim of their own success?

Similar to North TPE in a way - too few carriages were acquired for the services in the first place so they were crowded before there was any growth.

 

[northwichcat]

The TPE franchise should be broken up.

The NW England-Scotland services should be run by VTWC, using better quality Inter-City rolling stock with refreshment facilities, as in BR days, but with improved punctuality.

The Standedge services should be given to Northern and operated as Northern Connect services without 1st class, but not running north of Newcastle, where they duplicate VTEC and XC.

TPE Hope Valley services should be passed to EMT, who should also take over services via Worksop from Northern.

An option of getting rid of the TPE franchise was looked at. However, if it had gone ahead the North East to Manchester services would have gone to the EC franchise so they were operated by an Intercity franchise rather than by a local franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't agree with most of that, but since the other 'north west' routes were transferred over to Northern, it makes no logical sense for the Scotland services to be run by TPE. The only bit it has in common with the rest of their network is between the Airport and Piccadilly. If VTWC ran it, it would be able to fit in and be run as one consistent package all the way from Preston to Scotland.

I believe post-HS2 the London-Brum-Scotland service is to go but will be replaced at MKC with a London-Manchester-Scotland classic line service, so you may get your wish.

 

[route101]

I believe post-HS2 the London-Brum-Scotland service is to go but will be replaced at MKC with a London-Manchester-Scotland classic line service, so you may get your wish.

Would a London - Manchester - Scotland pendo work now ? One pendo continuing on from Manchester . Wonder if there is the stock available?

 

[driver9000]

Shame they couldn't borrow some 350/3s from LM like they did a couple of years ago to make them all eight cars for the Edinburgh fringe.

I hear there are some 319s going spare at the moment at Long Marston.

That only happened because the 350/3s hadn't entered service with LM and at the time were not needed. Transpennine used them as part of the commissioning programme.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would a London - Manchester - Scotland pendo work now ? One pendo continuing on from Manchester . Wonder if there is the stock available?

I don't think there is, no. There are already overcrowded single Voyagers out there.

 

[Blindtraveler]

No not any available 390s at present but in theory at least the idea would IMO work, potential calling patern X Edinburgh or Glasgow could be Carlisle, Penrith, Oxenhome, Lancaster, Preston, Wiggan, Man Pic, Man Airport, Crewe, Stafford and Euston?

All of course pie in the sky.

 

[anti-pacer]

Liverpool to Newcastle merits a proper inter-city-style service, complete with first class, every bit as much as Birmingham to Newcastle does.

Totally agree. Liverpool to Newcastle is roughly the same distance as where I live in Wakefield to London.

Bearing in mind that route alone connects 4 major cities, smaller but very popular York, and large towns such as Warrington and Huddersfield. Definitely an Inter-City style route to me.

What I think would be good would be the faster Liverpool to Newcastle service just stopping at Manchester Victoria, Leeds, York, Darlington and Newcastle. At least then there would be one faster service across the North. However, I'm not a pathing expert so not sure it could be done.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I've just seen the 16:00 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh and it's a pair of 185s today. 350s needed elsewhere?

 

[InOban]

I'm sure I read somewhere that one diesel working is maintained so that the drivers can continue to sign for the 185.

 

[fowler9]

Totally agree. Liverpool to Newcastle is roughly the same distance as where I live in Wakefield to London.

Bearing in mind that route alone connects 4 major cities, smaller but very popular York, and large towns such as Warrington and Huddersfield. Definitely an Inter-City style route to me.

What I think would be good would be the faster Liverpool to Newcastle service just stopping at Manchester Victoria, Leeds, York, Darlington and Newcastle. At least then there would be one faster service across the North. However, I'm not a pathing expert so not sure it could be done.

Totally agree with that to. They are similar distances but Wakefield to London connects some big towns using a 91 and a rake of Mark 4's, Liverpool to Newcastle connects most of the major cities in the north with a 3 car commuter unit.

 

[driver9000]

I'm sure I read somewhere that one diesel working is maintained so that the drivers can continue to sign for the 185.

Not quite. 185s work some weekend services to release 350s to allow strengthening of Edinburgh services. A pair of 185s out on a Monday is unusual on the Scottish service as normally there is just one strengthened train on Monday which as I recall is the diagram that begins with the 08:12 from Edinburgh. I can only assume the pair of 185s is to allow additional bank holiday capacity as there are also 2 trains of 8 car 350.

 

[northwichcat]

What I think would be good would be the faster Liverpool to Newcastle service just stopping at Manchester Victoria, Leeds, York, Darlington and Newcastle. At least then there would be one faster service across the North. However, I'm not a pathing expert so not sure it could be done.

There would be no real advantage to skipping Huddersfield. Even at half past midnight it takes 12 minutes for a TPE to get from Marsden to Heaton Lodge East Jn via Huddersfield platform 8 without stopping, which is the same amount of time which Liverpool to Newcastle services take including a stop to pick up and set down passengers. However, removing a Huddersfield call will mean Huddersfield-York will go back to 3tph with 2 services roughly half an hour apart, rather than a more consistent roughly every 15 minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No not any available 390s at present but in theory at least the idea would IMO work, potential calling patern X Edinburgh or Glasgow could be Carlisle, Penrith, Oxenhome, Lancaster, Preston, Wiggan, Man Pic, Man Airport, Crewe, Stafford and Euston?

All of course pie in the sky.

I couldn't see such a service serving Manchester Airport with the reverse needed. Will an 11-car Pendolino even fit?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Totally agree. Liverpool to Newcastle is roughly the same distance as where I live in Wakefield to London.

Bearing in mind that route alone connects 4 major cities, smaller but very popular York, and large towns such as Warrington and Huddersfield. Definitely an Inter-City style route to me.

What I think would be good would be the faster Liverpool to Newcastle service just stopping at Manchester Victoria, Leeds, York, Darlington and Newcastle. At least then there would be one faster service across the North. However, I'm not a pathing expert so not sure it could be done.

A few years ago I saw some of First Group's staff "propaganda" in which it was stated that TPE's busiest station-to-station flows were Huddersfield-Leeds followed by Dewsbury-Leeds. I doubt that the situation on TP(N) has changed since then. Accordingly, until such time that HS3 gets built (if at all!), there is practically no chance of seeing even a single service running non-stop between Manchester and Leeds. And I wouldn't expect TPE to miss Durham either. The reality is that TP(N) is a long-distance regional route that happens to link a lot of large towns and cities with a very large volume of passengers making short or medium distance journeys. To provide long distance services making fewer stops will require an awful lot more track capacity than currently exists in order that it would also be possible to provide a suitable service to the places that get missed out. Hence the talk of NPR/HS3.

 

[driver9000]

I couldn't see such a service serving Manchester Airport with the reverse needed. Will an 11-car Pendolino even fit?

No. 8 vehicles maximum at Manchester Airport.

 

[Senex]

There would be no real advantage to skipping Huddersfield. Even at half past midnight it takes 12 minutes for a TPE to get from Marsden to Heaton Lodge East Jn via Huddersfield platform 8 without stopping, which is the same amount of time which Liverpool to Newcastle services take including a stop to pick up and set down passengers. However, removing a Huddersfield call will mean Huddersfield-York will go back to 3tph with 2 services roughly half an hour apart, rather than a more consistent roughly every 15 minutes.

If the Huddersfield layout were modernised properly it might be possible to get a significantly better speed through, especially if something could be done with the dreadful platform 8. Though it will never be fast. As for York, why does Huddersfield need 4 services an hour to York?

 

[Senex]

A few years ago I saw some of First Group's staff "propaganda" in which it was stated that TPE's busiest station-to-station flows were Huddersfield-Leeds followed by Dewsbury-Leeds.

Which ought to be catered for by local services, not by stopping trains linking four of our major cities.

The reality is that TP(N) is a long-distance regional route that happens to link a lot of large towns and cities with a very large volume of passengers making short or medium distance journeys. To provide long distance services making fewer stops will require an awful lot more track capacity than currently exists in order that it would also be possible to provide a suitable service to the places that get missed out. Hence the talk of NPR/HS3.

And the fact that it is treated as what the Germans would call an RE service rather than as an IC service is what makes it so unattractive to longer-distance passengers.