TPE Scottish services

[anti-pacer]

I "popped up" to Edinburgh today for a ride up the S&C with a complimentary Northern day pass, then on TPE from Carlisle to Edinburgh and back.

I was lucky (kind of) as I managed to get on the delayed 12:06 TPE from Carlisle to Edinburgh (ex MIA obviously). I know the Edinburgh Festival is still on but I cannot believe how believe how busy this service was. 8 carriages and full. Still, I was lucky enough to get a seat next to an old Scotsman who proceeded to pick his nose and bite off parts of his nails every few minutes (Haymarket couldn't come soon enough)!

Bearing in mind I can remember when the 2 main Scottish cities had VERY limited services to Manchester Airport, I am really shocked as to the high level of patronage. OK there seemed to be a couple of hen parties aboard, and couples going away for a weekend (the beauty of ear-wigging), but are these services normally so heavily loaded?

Coming back it was 4 carriages, and despite me being by the door ready for them opening, every seat almost was reserved. Luckily I managed to find one seat that wasn't.

One thing I noticed about these services is what a state they get in. The train going up resembled a rubbish tip, and judging by what I saw before boarding the train coming back, the cleaners at Waverley were busy clearing up another reminiscence of a war zone. Are North West passengers just messy or something?

Contrast this with the Northern services I got between Leeds and Carlisle and back. A much nicer set of passengers! Coming back was bliss as I parked myself in the front 153 carriage which was almost empty.

Back to the TPE's. I can't help thinking that these services should be run using better stock. The seats on the 350's seemed uncomfortable, and the stock seems in my opinion more suitable to "outer suburban" runs, rather than long distance. I know they also operate Crewe-London and Liverpool-Birmingham services, but today was the furthest I've travelled on one.

Have I just been unlucky today or are these services now a victim of their own success?

 

[Mathew S]

I "popped up" to Edinburgh today for a ride up the S&C with a complimentary Northern day pass, then on TPE from Carlisle to Edinburgh and back.

I was lucky (kind of) as I managed to get on the delayed 12:06 TPE from Carlisle to Edinburgh (ex MIA obviously). I know the Edinburgh Festival is still on but I cannot believe how believe how busy this service was. 8 carriages and full. Still, I was lucky enough to get a seat next to an old Scotsman who proceeded to pick his nose and bite off parts of his nails every few minutes (Haymarket couldn't come soon enough)!

Bearing in mind I can remember when the 2 main Scottish cities had VERY limited services to Manchester Airport, I am really shocked as to the high level of patronage. OK there seemed to be a couple of hen parties aboard, and couples going away for a weekend (the beauty of ear-wigging), but are these services normally so heavily loaded?

Coming back it was 4 carriages, and despite me being by the door ready for them opening, every seat almost was reserved. Luckily I managed to find one seat that wasn't.

One thing I noticed about these services is what a state they get in. The train going up resembled a rubbish tip, and judging by what I saw before boarding the train coming back, the cleaners at Waverley were busy clearing up another reminiscence of a war zone. Are North West passengers just messy or something?

Contrast this with the Northern services I got between Leeds and Carlisle and back. A much nicer set of passengers! Coming back was bliss as I parked myself in the front 153 carriage which was almost empty.

Back to the TPE's. I can't help thinking that these services should be run using better stock. The seats on the 350's seemed uncomfortable, and the stock seems in my opinion more suitable to "outer suburban" runs, rather than long distance. I know they also operate Crewe-London and Liverpool-Birmingham services, but today was the furthest I've travelled on one.

Have I just been unlucky today or are these services now a victim of their own success?

As a regular user of said TPE 350s, I couldn't agree more. They're uncomfortable, untidy (never seem to be cleaned), and far too small for the usage they get on the Scottish routes. Northbound morning services in particular are regularly jam-packed.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

 

[yorkie]

...but are these services normally so heavily loaded?

They often are, yes.

Are North West passengers just messy or something?

Yes

 

[Blindtraveler]

If I said to you that I try ever ever ever so so so hard to avoid Worst Transpenine Distress on the anglo Scots in particular then you should get a good idea of how crap they are. The Edinburgh festival adds to this already acute problem. 350s are totally unsuited and are being replaced thank goodness but the entire opperation is IMO a joke and has been since day 1, Id rather a voyager TBH.

That all said the majority of staff do their very best to look after pax and Im not knocking them.

 

[Chrism20]

Over the last couple of years I have worked in Preston on and off (Live in Edinburgh) and would go back and forth at least once a week.

In all the journeys I done I don't think there was every a single one where the train wasn't full and standing either on arrival or departure at Preston. I learned quite quickly to pay the extra and go with Virgin.

They are generally cheaper than Virgin for advances which makes them even busier.

I think the untidiness is caused by them being so busy. I've seen the man or woman who does the trolley collect rubbish before but I've also seen it where it's so busy they can't move their trolley let alone get through with a rubbish bag.

 

[Blindtraveler]

**With the acception of the 06:15 EDB MIA and the 20:00 MIA EDB
**unsure what iether of these are like between Preston and Manchester but North of there they are quiet.

 

[route101]

I "popped up" to Edinburgh today for a ride up the S&C with a complimentary Northern day pass, then on TPE from Carlisle to Edinburgh and back.

I was lucky (kind of) as I managed to get on the delayed 12:06 TPE from Carlisle to Edinburgh (ex MIA obviously). I know the Edinburgh Festival is still on but I cannot believe how believe how busy this service was. 8 carriages and full. Still, I was lucky enough to get a seat next to an old Scotsman who proceeded to pick his nose and bite off parts of his nails every few minutes (Haymarket couldn't come soon enough)!

Bearing in mind I can remember when the 2 main Scottish cities had VERY limited services to Manchester Airport, I am really shocked as to the high level of patronage. OK there seemed to be a couple of hen parties aboard, and couples going away for a weekend (the beauty of ear-wigging), but are these services normally so heavily loaded?

Coming back it was 4 carriages, and despite me being by the door ready for them opening, every seat almost was reserved. Luckily I managed to find one seat that wasn't.

One thing I noticed about these services is what a state they get in. The train going up resembled a rubbish tip, and judging by what I saw before boarding the train coming back, the cleaners at Waverley were busy clearing up another reminiscence of a war zone. Are North West passengers just messy or something?

Contrast this with the Northern services I got between Leeds and Carlisle and back. A much nicer set of passengers! Coming back was bliss as I parked myself in the front 153 carriage which was almost empty.

Back to the TPE's. I can't help thinking that these services should be run using better stock. The seats on the 350's seemed uncomfortable, and the stock seems in my opinion more suitable to "outer suburban" runs, rather than long distance. I know they also operate Crewe-London and Liverpool-Birmingham services, but today was the furthest I've travelled on one.

Have I just been unlucky today or are these services now a victim of their own success?

Im sure i seen your service at Preston and loads of people got off heading to Blackpool . Ive used the service between Manchester and Glasgow a fair few times . Glasgow never gets the 8 carriages .
I took the 1515 from Manchester Picc to Preston and it was full and standing as it always is , didnt help a service to Blackpool was cancelled plus no services via Bolton . Always a swarm of people at platform 14 waiting to get on . When you get on your confronted with mostly reservations and people not knowing what to do .
Really need longer and proper trains , maybe not stopping at Preston . Shoule be pendos and virgin doing this run . E

 

[Class 170101]

If I said to you that I try ever ever ever so so so hard to avoid Worst Transpenine Distress on the anglo Scots in particular then you should get a good idea of how crap they are. The Edinburgh festival adds to this already acute problem.

Shame they couldn't borrow some 350/3s from LM like they did a couple of years ago to make them all eight cars for the Edinburgh fringe.

I hear there are some 319s going spare at the moment at Long Marston.

 

[fowler9]

Aren't one or two of the busiest services in the country Manchester Airport to Scotland services? Desiros are nice units but entirely unsuited to the distances they operate in many cases in my opinion. We also need to change the way we live to avoid people having to commute so far (Not that everyone on those services is a commuter of course). In many cases it is down to house prices and working practices. Sadly the only thing you can call flexible working practice in this country these days is zero hour contracts. You pretty much have to work in the civil service these days to have flex time as the country is overrun with call centres employing people they need there at a specific time so they can make maximum profit from minimum number of staff. Profit is king. It is a shame. We have replaced living with working so we can pay bills.

 

[yorkie]

We also need to change the way we live to avoid people having to commute so far (Not that everyone on those services is a commuter of course). In many cases it is down to house prices and working practices.

Not going to happen, but I doubt many - if any - of the passengers were commuting, so this is surely a moot point.

 

[anti-pacer]

Not going to happen, but I doubt many - if any - of the passengers were commuting, so this is surely a moot point.

Agreed Yorkie. This service was definitely full of leisure passengers.

 

[Chrism20]

**With the acception of the 06:15 EDB MIA and the 20:00 MIA EDB
**unsure what iether of these are like between Preston and Manchester but North of there they are quiet.

I've only used the 0615 service once and by Oxenholme it was cosy although there were quite a few commuters as it allows for a pre-9am arrival into both Lancaster and Preston. I don't think I've used the the 2000 one at all, it's the late arrival back into Edinburgh that's always put me off plus I can generally get off early on the days I travelled back.

Have you been on the 2000 since the timetable change?

Virgin changed the 1954 (1643 ex Euston) to a single voyager and the fares went up a good bit some days, it would be interesting to see if this one has benefited from that although like me the late arrival might put people off.

 

[47271]

If you think it's bad now, near in mind that these services were operated by 185s until 2014. On that basis the 350s are superb.

The problem is purely and simply a lack of capacity, and the route is by no means unique in that respect - Scotrail 170s on the Highland Main Line spring to mind.

I use TPE between Manchester and Scotland a lot for work so thankfully can go First Class, which is really quite comfortable in a 350, but I'm aware of ridiculous levels of overcrowding in Standard.

Anyway, they're getting new trains but, for now, I agree that it's desperate.

 

[Philip]

You didn't have this kind of problem in the 90s. It was usually a rake of 7 mk2 coaches, pulled by a class 47 and it ran every couple of hours, via Bolton. The service seemed to run well even though not as frequent; it had a real 'intercity' feel to it.

 

[47271]

I don't think I've used the the 2000 one at all, it's the late arrival back into Edinburgh that's always put me off plus I can generally get off early on the days I travelled back.

Have you been on the 2000 since the timetable change?

I was on it earlier this week. 2x350 so masses of space in the unreserved rear unit where naturally I put myself, but still people choosing to stand in the front four.

No catering due to some cockup or other, but the guard was doing a fantastic job trying to make up for that.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I try and avoid that late late arrival back as its booked P10 most nights and gives me a plus 5 for my last bus if on time.

My neighbour has used since May and said he had a coach to himself, a situation which was not unknown on the last Voyager of the night pre TT change. I rode this all the way from Crewe *shudders* on Tuesday just gone and the loadings are similar according to the Loveley Halie in the shop, just less space for them all.

 

[323235]

When people talk about the new trains for the Anglo Scottish Trans Pennine service I am still rather concerned that the 12 trains they have ordered to replace the current 10 is not going to be enough, when the frequency of Manchester Airport services is going to be increased and services from Liverpool are to be introduced.

 

[fowler9]

Not going to happen, but I doubt many - if any - of the passengers were commuting, so this is surely a moot point.

I know plenty of people in government jobs and in social housing that use London Midland to travel north to Carlisle and further for work purposes. I'm not sure you could guarantee they are business passengers because they don't have to wear suits.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I agree totally on Scottish future capacity, the order seams to reflect TPE's mition statement of providing not quite enough space for anyone at any time.
Do they have an option on that order for a few more?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree totally on Scottish future capacity, the order seams to reflect TPE's mition statement of providing not quite enough space for anyone at any time.
Do they have an option on that order for a few more?

Yes, the "straight" 23m EMUs are the only order which does have options for additional units, and longer ones (one of the options is for 8-car units, I believe).

 

[158756]

When people talk about the new trains for the Anglo Scottish Trans Pennine service I am still rather concerned that the 12 trains they have ordered to replace the current 10 is not going to be enough, when the frequency of Manchester Airport services is going to be increased and services from Liverpool are to be introduced.

It would appear that an hourly Manchester-Scotland service requires 8 units. One train can't do 3 trips between Liverpool and Glasgow in a day, so another two will have to be out each day. Leaving the remaining 2 on maintenance/spare. No doubling up, unless the Liverpool units have time to be attached to Manchester services between Liverpool runs. But then 2x5 car probably doesn't fit at enough platforms to make it worthwhile.

Any service currently consisting of 8 coaches and full will be in trouble.

 

[anti-pacer]

I know plenty of people in government jobs and in social housing that use London Midland to travel north to Carlisle and further for work purposes. I'm not sure you could guarantee they are business passengers because they don't have to wear suits.

London Midland don't operate services to Carlisle. Do you mean TPE?

 

[Blindtraveler]

It would appear that an hourly Manchester-Scotland service requires 8 units. One train can't do 3 trips between Liverpool and Glasgow in a day, so another two will have to be out each day. Leaving the remaining 2 on maintenance/spare. No doubling up, unless the Liverpool units have time to be attached to Manchester services between Liverpool runs. But then 2x5 car probably doesn't fit at enough platforms to make it worthwhile.

Any service currently consisting of 8 coaches and full will be in trouble.

Sorry to be nagative but theres going to be a lot of trouble with this from day 1. A 5 year old could probably tell you that and goodness knows theres enough posts on this here forum saying that the route needs 6 or more as minimum.

If Manchester and Liverpools were banged together at Preston then I think all platforms accept perhaps Lockerbie would fit it?

 

[47271]

Good point on the next set of trains likely not to be up to the job either.

I'd like to say that the overcrowding only happens as far north as Preston and is caused by Manchester local trips. That's where it's at its very worst, but you regularly get people standing all the way on four coach 350s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Remember though that it's 5x23m (115m) replacing 4x20m (100m), so given that vestibules etc waste space they will be near equivalent to 6 car 350s.

 

[KevinTurvey]

It is incredible how popular this corridor has become overall in recent years from a basic hourly service to 3 per hour - In the late 1980s there were 17 daytime trains between Preston and Carlisle going northwards. Now there are nearly 50 including both TP and Virgin, and many are very busy especially the TP services.

I imagine it is difficult to predict where things go next, and will this level of growth continue.

Presently though its a pity the timetable cannot be smoothed out a bit, with departures typically at 41, 53, and 58 past each hour from Preston.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Remember though that it's 5x23m (115m) replacing 4x20m (100m), so given that vestibules etc waste space they will be near equivalent to 6 car 350s.

6 car 350 equivalent would be good at normal times but during the Fringe?

 

[Bletchleyite]

6 car 350 equivalent would be good at normal times but during the Fringe?

Can you realistically provide new rolling stock on the basis of a few weeks a year? That's the kind of time when sensibly additional stock would be hired in from charter operators and run on relief services.

 

[47271]

Well, or with a bit of joined up thinking between Virgin and Scotrail, promotional fares via Glasgow during the Festival? There's plenty of capacity both on the Glasgow Pendolinos and between Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Okay, it would take longer, but what would you rather do, stand from Preston to Edinburgh, or sit over two legs with a change in Glasgow?

It's worth a try if it's really that bad.

 

[Blindtraveler]

There is an element of left hand right hand here too as the Scottish Govd and Edinburgh council want a major expantion in visiters to support the City economy (in theory at least) and the tourist traid as a whole with a few to it being the business case for independence so these numbers are going to grow whatever happens. I think the only way of stopping the new stock being too small before its even built is a lowering of advance quotas to a level where 2.5 coaches of STD and half of First are allocated to these meaning the rest would be available for walkups/local trips.