TPE reject minister's proposal

[northwichcat]

Norman Baker, the rail minister, has written to train operators urging for each service to be marked up by a green, amber or red light to steer passengers away from the busiest services.

Greater Manchester's busiest train operator has put the brakes on a traffic light warning system for overcrowded trains – because services would be on red most of the time.

Norman Baker, the rail minister, has written to train operators urging for each service to be marked up by a green, amber or red light to steer passengers away from the busiest services.

His call comes in light of figures which show some rush hour trains are overloaded by 60 per cent.

But on First TransPennine services, the traffic light indicator would spend much of its time on ‘red’. The firm’s routes in and out of Manchester are so overcrowded that at peak rush hour times nearly a quarter of passengers are forced to stand for journeys.

Figures show the early morning train running from Manchester to Middlesbrough is the third most crowded in the country, after services from Heathrow to London Paddington and London Euston to Birmingham.

The 6.23am service has a capacity for 166 passengers, but there are on average 269 on board – overcrowding of 62 per cent.

First TransPennine has decided not to follow the lead of other operators and immediately adopt the scheme – but did say they would look at it.

A spokesman said providing detailed customer information was important to them and they are investigating the method based on feedback from other operators, but added: “Unlike some other train operators who experience busy periods in the morning and evening peaks, two thirds of our passengers travel for leisure purposes meaning that demand is high throughout the day.”

He said the firm is investing £60m to increase capacity by 30 per cent.

A Virgin Trains spokesman said they ‘agree’ with Mr Baker – but added: “lt’s a difficult solution to put in place as we are not a commuter train operator.”

They said they already have an online tool which warns a customer if they’ve booked a busy service – urging them to reserve a seat. Northern Rail is planning to trial the system on a poster at one of its busiest stations outside Manchester.

John Moorhouse, TravelWatch NorthWest secretary, said: “It’s all very well and good but people travelling to work have to get there at a certain time, unless they are on flexi-time.

“They are often committed to the same train every day, and even the one after is often overcrowded.

“For many commuters it won’t be workable, it’s busy because it’s a popular train.”

But he said what’s really needed is more and bigger trains. “Northern Rail is finding it very difficult to strengthen its trains because the franchise is heavily subsidised by taxpayers already so the Department for Transport limits them on the strength of their business case.

“There is no obvious solution, many trains in the north west are 25 years old and need replacing.”

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ews/first-transpennine-boss-puts-stop-5873436

I wonder if printing booked train lengths, as LM do, would be a better solution?

 

[Sidious]

Norman Baker should be turning his attention to treating the cause of overcrowding, and not addressing a symptom.

Perhaps if there were more trains and more carriages then there would be less overcrowding.

Cause -> Effect?

 

[Silv1983]

People are stuck in their ways and will never shed the "others will avoid this service because it's busy - but I want to travel at this time" mentality.
I've said it before - people who commute to Manchester Piccadilly from Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme in the morning squeeze onto a 2-car Buxton-Blackpool service instead of getting out of bed 10 minutes earlier and using the half empty, clean and airy 323 that comes first.

I would find this useful for trips down to London on a Virgin train when I have the whole day to travel - but nothing else really. 90% of commuters travel at a time of necessity and not through choice - so I think it's a waste of money.

 

[Muzer]

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ews/first-transpennine-boss-puts-stop-5873436

I wonder if printing booked train lengths, as LM do, would be a better solution?

Not sure that would work - people would then just avoid all the 3-coach trains because they're clearly going to be the busiest, being only 3 coaches, even if they are running at 11pm .

 

[swt_passenger]

The article seems a bit of an over-reaction. I'm sure Baker's suggestion was made with good intentions, but I doubt it was ever expected to be a 'one size fits all' solution.

But in due course once the 350s have arrived, and TPE do have additional units available for strengthening a limited number of services, maybe it will be helpful to differentiate 3 and 6 car 185 services?

 

[All Line Rover]

It isn't surprising Virgin aren't keen on implementing this proposal. If a green light meant more than a quarter of seats were available (for Standard and First Class combined), the 'traffic lights' for London to Manchester on a weekday afternoon would be something like this:

14:00 - Green
14:20 - Amber
14:40 - Amber
15:00 - Red
15:20 - Green
15:40 - Green
16:00 - Green
16:20 - Green
16:40 - Green
17:00 - Green
17:20 - Green
17:40 - Green
18:00 - Green
18:20 - Green
18:40 - Green
19:00 - Red
19:20 - Red
19:40 - Amber
20:00 - Green

I wonder how long it would take passengers to notice the correlation between those figures and Off-Peak ticket restrictions. 'Traffic lights' are of no assistance if passengers remain priced off quieter trains.

 

[Hartington]

Surely it's not the train but the station pair. As an example trains coming out of Bristol in the late afternoon will be full and standing to Bradford on Avon and then empty out the nearer the train gets to Weymouth.

 

[corin paul]

Frist class passenage paying full price, and 75% seats full. Means you don't care if there empty seats in second class, or any second class seats in the first place. That how one airline worked in 2000s, until the bubble burst.
WCML?

 

[Bishopstone]

If TPE are so over-crowded, why are they offering bargain travel to the over 55s: including in the evening peak?

 

[yorkie]

Virgin don't want to do it because the results would embarrass them and highlight the obvious fact (and make it even more obvious) that their yield management techniques are failing due to absurd peak/off peak pricing/restrictions. East Coast may not be perfect, but they are far better than Virgin at managing this, especially in the evening peak!

I don't see why TPE are refusing, other than again trying to avoid embarrassment.

Surely it's not the train but the station pair. As an example trains coming out of Bristol in the late afternoon will be full and standing to Bradford on Avon and then empty out the nearer the train gets to Weymouth.

The posters are specific to a station.

I am not sure of current allocations, but for York, you'd have something like the 1657 being 'green' as it is/was 6-car with an empty coach added at York, while from Leeds the same train (1726) would be 'red' and it would probably be green (or at least amber) from 'uddersfield (1746).

 

[Carlisle]

Might be of some use ,maybe of similar value to the coloured platform zone signs BR introduced to aid boarding trains as long as it was not raining then everyone stands under the canopy or in the waiting room

 

[yorkie]

Might be of some use ,maybe of similar value to the coloured platform zone signs BR introduced to aid boarding trains as long as it was not raining then everyone stands under the canopy or in the waiting room

That's a separate matter, and some TOCs do this. East Coast are good at putting up signs explaining where to wait for a particular coach.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

The whole idea is tedious catch penny money wasting drivel, and I commend Virgin and TPE for not falling in with its inherent childishness -however dubious their motives. ..

 

[yorksrob]

Hmm - I don't know.

Regular travellers should learn fairly quickly whether there are any less crowded options available, however as a leisure traveller at times, I would find it a potentially useful way to avoid irritatingly crowded trains.

However, how do you classify an afternoon TPE service from Manchester to Newcastle for example. It would probably be the more crowded option between Manchester and York and so should be red, but then again would be the less crowded option between York and Newcastle, so should be green.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Hmm - I don't know.

Regular travellers should learn fairly quickly whether there are any less crowded options available, however as a leisure traveller at times, I would find it a potentially useful way to avoid irritatingly crowded trains.

However, how do you classify an afternoon TPE service from Manchester to Newcastle for example. It would probably be the more crowded option between Manchester and York and so should be red, but then again would be the less crowded option between York and Newcastle, so should be green.

I think they're supposed to change in real-time based on actual loadings rather than predicted ones. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

 

[yorksrob]

I think they're supposed to change in real-time based on actual loadings rather than predicted ones. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Ah right. I'd say a rough idea of what a particular train is likely to be like at the stage of planning a journey would be more use to me than real time loadings when it's too late to do anything about it.

 

[AndyLandy]

SWT already do something like this at Basingstoke. There's a board that advises passengers which trains are most likely crowded into London.

 

[Paul Kelly]

To the people wondering how it works when a train has different loadings over the course of its journey, I think the confusion is arising from the imprecise word of the word "train" to mean "departure". it's inherent in the way the system works that it applies to a list of departures from a particular station, rather than to a train over its whole journey. Each departure from each station would be colour-coded as to how full the train was likely to be on departure from that station - nothing more or less than that.

So each TOC would need to generate a separate list of colour-coded departures for each main station they served. For TPE, Manchester, Leeds and York would certainly be a good start. Virgin might want to do Euston, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow. And so on.

 

[WatcherZero]

Hmm - I don't know.

Regular travellers should learn fairly quickly whether there are any less crowded options available, however as a leisure traveller at times, I would find it a potentially useful way to avoid irritatingly crowded trains.

However, how do you classify an afternoon TPE service from Manchester to Newcastle for example. It would probably be the more crowded option between Manchester and York and so should be red, but then again would be the less crowded option between York and Newcastle, so should be green.

That was my reaction too, its all fair and good if you have a service which just gets progressiley more crowded until it reachs its destination (e.g. Into London or a commuter service that terminates in Manchester) but what about ones where peak crowding is actually at the midpoint of the journey? e.g. Trains to Scotland get busiest in the North West (Warrington-Wigan-Preston) then start to empty out again towards Scotland, or TPE traffic that passes through Manchester?

 

[edwin_m]

People joining at the start of a journey that gets busier later wouldn't be too bothered, as they could get a seat at their joining station, unless it was so busy that most of the seats were reserved. So the colour coding only needs to apply to the likely loading of a train as it departs the station in question.

 

[tbtc]

Figures show the early morning train running from Manchester to Middlesbrough is the third most crowded in the country, after services from Heathrow to London Paddington and London Euston to Birmingham.

The 6.23am service has a capacity for 166 passengers, but there are on average 269 on board – overcrowding of 62 per cent

I'd guess that, on average, there may be a hundred people on board the service - it'll be virtually empty leaving Manchester Airport at 06:23 and probably plenty of seats north of York.

BUT, for the section from Huddersfield to Leeds in the morning, it'll be very busy. So, a "traffic light" system needs to highlight this better - otherwise you may have people on overnight flights into Manchester deciding not to take the 06:23 to Piccadilly as it appeared "red" on the timetable.

Also, there's the whole argument about what "capacity" is - since modern stock is generally designed for standing - the 166 is presumably just the number of seats, so a 185 has *capacity* for more people than that.

in due course once the 350s have arrived, and TPE do have additional units available for strengthening a limited number of services, maybe it will be helpful to differentiate 3 and 6 car 185 services?

That seems sensible on operators like LM and C2C - I've never seen it on my local lines to know what difference it makes to passenger behaviour but it sounds like a really good simple idea

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If TPE are so over-crowded, why are they offering bargain travel to the over 55s: including in the evening peak?

I take it that you are under the age of 55..:roll:

First Group chose to withdraw from the Club 55 offer until this latest offer. whilst ATW have kept theirs running for the last few years.

 

[Darren R]

At first, upon reading the article, I thought 'what a good idea!'

Then I thought about it for a couple of seconds. If the information is displayed at stations and is specific to that station (as it would have to be) then the journey decision has already been made. Fine at a station like Stockport where services to Manchester are frequent, but if you arrive at the station to catch the 0830 train and then discover it's flagged as red, the information is of no use if the next train isn't for an hour. You're just mentally prepared for having to stand up. Seems a bit gimicky to me. I'm reminded of the Politician's Syllogism:

We must do something.
This is something.
Therefore we must do this.
(copyright Sir Humphrey Appleby)

 

[WatcherZero]

The only way I could see it working is next to each station on the journey on a planner like NRE's.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The whole premise is that people will make choice to travel at a different time but in reality can you? Commuters that have to be at work by certain time, connections to make, andwhy did you go for that train anyway if you really could have travelled later? It's just dodging the issue of a lack of rolling stock.

 

[Clip]

Norman Baker should be turning his attention to treating the cause of overcrowding, and not addressing a symptom.
Perhaps if there were more trains and more carriages then there would be less overcrowding.

Cause -> Effect?

What, like everyone wanting to get the same train at the same time rather than get an earlier/later one??

Can only run so many trains and have them a certain length before you just have a mass of trains not going anywhere and you walk through the carriages

 

[bb21]

Is everyone actually reading how this is supposed to work, which was posted by yorkie in Post 10, and again by Indigo2 in Post 18?

I suspect not. :roll:

 

[306024]

We must do something.
This is something.
Therefore we must do this.
(copyright Sir Humphrey Appleby)

Spot on

We've had these posters on Greater Anglia for a while now but in my experience they haven't persuaded passengers onto the more lightly loaded trains. Still you can't say you weren't told.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If TPE are so over-crowded, why are they offering bargain travel to the over 55s: including in the evening peak?

You will, of course, have noticed that this Club 55 campaign is only on offer for a very limited time window from 15th September to 10th November.

These are not day return tickets but are valid for a period of one month and there are restrictions that forbid travel prior to 0930.

 

[northwichcat]

I'd guess that, on average, there may be a hundred people on board the service - it'll be virtually empty leaving Manchester Airport at 06:23 and probably plenty of seats north of York.

BUT, for the section from Huddersfield to Leeds in the morning, it'll be very busy. So, a "traffic light" system needs to highlight this better - otherwise you may have people on overnight flights into Manchester deciding not to take the 06:23 to Piccadilly as it appeared "red" on the timetable.

That's a good point and it's an issue ATW have when they put the symbol for 'Seat Reservations Recommended' above Manchester to South Wales services - it doesn't mean everyone who plans to travel on that service needs to reserve a seat or risk standing, just passengers on certain sections of the service.

Also, there's the whole argument about what "capacity" is - since modern stock is generally designed for standing - the 166 is presumably just the number of seats, so a 185 has *capacity* for more people than that.

Standing is supposed to be peak time only for a maximum of 20 minutes so it means a North TPE service with standing between Huddersfield and Leeds with no Dewsbury call can have 180 on board leaving Huddersfield and be overcrowded, while another service with a Dewsbury call can have 200 on board leaving Dewsbury and not be overcrowded.