TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[87electric]

Anyone who has left it until the last week to have a bash is a fool. It was widely reported accross forums and social media that the week of the overtime ban would be a farce. I thankfully enjoyed my last run on Tuesday with 68030, totally veg-free.

That Tuesday (with 030) was also my last day out on the turns. I spent Sept/Oct/Nov going up twice a week for bash and mileage. Never was I going to do the last week with all the IQ challenged.

 

[Iskra]

Anyone who has left it until the last week to have a bash is a fool. It was widely reported accross forums and social media that the week of the overtime ban would be a farce. I thankfully enjoyed my last run on Tuesday with 68030, totally veg-free.

I have been on them, I just happen to be making a journey tomorrow already where I could possibly include a 68 if they are out, hence my question.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Anyone who has left it until the last week to have a bash is a fool. It was widely reported accross forums and social media that the week of the overtime ban would be a farce. I thankfully enjoyed my last run on Tuesday with 68030, totally veg-free.

I had always assumed there was a risk services using Mk5s would tail off in the last weeks/months regardless of any industrial action. The use has held up quite well so I was wrong BUT that just makes the effects industrial action even more obvious !.

Have to feel sorry for all the normal passengers who are inconvenienced regardless of the stock that could be used. Also lets see how healthy the service is after 09/12/2023 without industrial action and without the Mk5s ?.

Or maybe a Mk5 set or two will get pressed into service after TPE "stop using them" .

 

[170UTD]

I had always assumed there was a risk services using Mk5s would tail off in the last weeks/months regardless of any industrial action. The use has held up quite well so I was wrong BUT that just makes the effects industrial action even more obvious !.

Have to feel sorry for all the normal passengers who are inconvenienced regardless of the stock that could be used. Also lets see how healthy the service is after 09/12/2023 without industrial action and without the Mk5s ?.

Or maybe a Mk5 set or two will get pressed into service after TPE "stop using them" .

I did my last run a couple of weeks ago, but I'll see if I get out on Tuesday if they're still out

 

[sjpowermac]

I had always assumed there was a risk services using Mk5s would tail off in the last weeks/months regardless of any industrial action. The use has held up quite well so I was wrong BUT that just makes the effects industrial action even more obvious !.

Have to feel sorry for all the normal passengers who are inconvenienced regardless of the stock that could be used. Also lets see how healthy the service is after 09/12/2023 without industrial action and without the Mk5s ?.

Or maybe a Mk5 set or two will get pressed into service after TPE "stop using them" .

As I understand it, after 09.12.2023 TPE drivers will no longer sign Class 68/Mk5A sets.

 

[xotGD]

I planned a final run on a work trip to Manchester.

As so often was the case, a 185 produced.

 

[50032]

As I understand it, after 09.12.2023 TPE drivers will no longer sign Class 68/Mk5A sets.

With respect, I think that's rubbish. You only no longer sign something after a set period of time not driving said traction (definied by the TOC's own standards, but let's say 6 months). I'm sure there'll be some drivers who hate the things, who'll be knocking down the door to their manager's office the following Monday morning asking for them to be removed off their card.

I don't think there's a cat in hell's chance of the 68s doing any passenger turns after 9/12, but TPE drivers may be sent to Scarborough after this date in order to return the sets to Longsight as ECS moves (however it wouldn't surprise me if ROG do all this work either).

 

[sjpowermac]

With respect, I think that's rubbish. You only no longer sign something after a set period of time not driving said traction (definied by the TOC's own standards, but let's say 6 months). I'm sure there'll be some drivers who hate the things, who'll be knocking down the door to their manager's office the following Monday morning asking for them to be removed off their card.

I don't think there's a cat in hell's chance of the 68s doing any passenger turns after 9/12, but TPE drivers may be sent to Scarborough after this date in order to return the sets to Longsight as ECS moves (however it wouldn't surprise me if ROG do all this work either).

With respect, I think you are wrong.

Part of the TPE driver Terms and Conditions state that if their diagrams no longer include a traction type, then they are deemed to no longer sign that traction.

My source is a friend who is a driver for TPE and he confirmed this with a driver manager.

Any movements of Class 68/Mk5A for TPE after 09.12.2023 would have to be done by a third party, most likely ROG.

Hope that helps.

 

[50032]

With respect, I think you are wrong.

Part of the TPE driver Terms and Conditions state that if their diagrams no longer include a traction type, then they are deemed to no longer sign that traction.

My source is a friend who is a driver for TPE and he confirmed this with a driver manager.

Any movements of Class 68/Mk5A for TPE after 09.12.2023 would have to be done by a third party, most likely ROG.

Hope that helps.

Fair enough if that's how it is. That's a very restrictive policy compared to other TOCs, one that benefits no one.

 

[sjpowermac]

Fair enough if that's how it is. That's a very restrictive policy compared to other TOCs, one that benefits no one.

Oddly it was of use to TPE Executives in terms of putting the final nail in the Class 68/Mk5A coffin. The driver training that would have been required made ever bringing the sets back a complete nonstarter.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Oddly it was of use to TPE Executives in terms of putting the final nail in the Class 68/Mk5A coffin. The driver training that would have been required made ever bringing the sets back a complete nonstarter.

And the Mk5s are going to be sitting around doing nothing except getting damp until the lease TPE has on the expires in - was it June next year ?. Mind you if there is another operator keen to use the Mk5s they might well sublease some of them from TPE early. But its all a hopelessly long shot.

 

[TheBigD]

With respect, I think that's rubbish. You only no longer sign something after a set period of time not driving said traction (definied by the TOC's own standards, but let's say 6 months). I'm sure there'll be some drivers who hate the things, who'll be knocking down the door to their manager's office the following Monday morning asking for them to be removed off their card.

I don't think there's a cat in hell's chance of the 68s doing any passenger turns after 9/12, but TPE drivers may be sent to Scarborough after this date in order to return the sets to Longsight as ECS moves (however it wouldn't surprise me if ROG do all this work either).

Back in 2008 when Central Trains was split up, Cambridge guards, who all transferred to XC, had 156's removed from their traction cards the following day, even though they still covered EMT Nottingham-Norwich work for a further 13 months.

Removing traction is not a new development.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Back in 2008 when Central Trains was split up, Cambridge guards, who all transferred to XC, had 156's removed from their traction cards the following day, even though they still covered EMT Nottingham-Norwich work for a further 13 months.

Removing traction is not a new development.

I was wondering. Could that be so as to avoid the risks of staff getting poached by another Train Operating Company (or Freight Operating Company in the case of the 68s) ?.

 

[BoroAndy]

I was wondering. Could that be so as to avoid the risks of staff getting poached by another Train Operating Company (or Freight Operating Company in the case of the 68s) ?.

I'm sure that wouldn't work. If a TPE driver moved soon to a company moving 68s I bet he would be competent as had driven the within last x months.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm sure that wouldn't work. If a TPE driver moved soon to a company moving 68s I bet he would be competent as had driven the within last x months.

So in that case it leaves me wondering. What is the purpose of the traction cards ?.

 

[coxxy]

With respect, I think you are wrong.

Part of the TPE driver Terms and Conditions state that if their diagrams no longer include a traction type, then they are deemed to no longer sign that traction.

My source is a friend who is a driver for TPE and he confirmed this with a driver manager.

Any movements of Class 68/Mk5A for TPE after 09.12.2023 would have to be done by a third party, most likely ROG.

Hope that helps.

Id be suprised if that is the case to be honest, that said, Competence is all about having regular assessments etc. So if no one is being assessed on 68's/mk5's any more - Naturally their competence will be slashed.

Whilst I think you are right, many drivers will take them off their route cards pretty quickly, A lot of others won't.

If, suddenly, come January TPE realised they were needed, I bet there would be plenty of volunteers to be back out driving them.

 

[Fokx]

Id be suprised if that is the case to be honest

It is the case, it’s in their terms and conditions.

If, suddenly, come January TPE realised they were needed, I bet there would be plenty of volunteers to be back out driving them.

They won’t be in any shape or form.
Conductor competency would have lapsed as would drivers, the same reason they were removed from the Liverpool to Cleethorpes service and haven’t been seen again despite a period of poorer than usual reliability from the 185

 

[BoroAndy]

0E17 Crewe to Scarborough. Looks like something is on the way to drag a Nova3 back to Longsight from P3 at Scarborough. Has it failed.

 

[Peter Sarf]

0E17 Crewe to Scarborough. Looks like something is on the way to drag a Nova3 back to Longsight from P3 at Scarborough. Has it failed.

Or is it part of the run down ?.

I suppose I would have expected the flock to head back on/after next Monday except the Nova3 might be in the way at Scarborough if unused this week.
Begs the question - where will back be ?. I mean because Longsight is only so big and TPE don't want them Monday (11/12/2023) next week onwards.

 

[50032]

0E17 Crewe to Scarborough. Looks like something is on the way to drag a Nova3 back to Longsight from P3 at Scarborough. Has it failed.

I believe it is 68023 and has gone to get 68024 & TP04 - which has been sat in Scarborough station for several days having failed there.

 

[BoroAndy]

I believe it is 68023 and has gone to get 68024 & TP04 - which has been sat in Scarborough station for several days having failed there.

Photo opportunity for a double header nova 3,unless locos at either end lol

 

[Peter Sarf]

Photo opportunity for a double header nova 3,unless locos at either end lol

Look on the bright side - If the set is facing the wrong way for a double header then its still a photo opportunity for a loco at the driving trailer end.

 

[sjpowermac]

Formation 68023 coupled to 68024 with set TP04 behind on 5Q33 1328 Scarborough-Longsight.

Operated by ROG.

Realtime Trains | 5Q33 1328 Scarborough to Longsight Car. M.D. | 04/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q33 1328 departure from Scarborough to Longsight Car. M.D. on 04/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2023 ==

Id be suprised if that is the case to be honest, that said, Competence is all about having regular assessments etc. So if no one is being assessed on 68's/mk5's any more - Naturally their competence will be slashed.

Whilst I think you are right, many drivers will take them off their route cards pretty quickly, A lot of others won't.

If, suddenly, come January TPE realised they were needed, I bet there would be plenty of volunteers to be back out driving them.

I’m sure you are absolutely correct that there would be plenty of drivers who would volunteer.

Unfortunately though, as I understand it, the process here isn’t down to individual drivers to decide. As of 10.12.2023 all competency lapses.

Naturally, TPE could have negotiated on this point, but chose not to because it helped their case in permanently binning the Class 68/Mk5A sets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2023 ==

They won’t be in any shape or form.
Conductor competency would have lapsed as would drivers, the same reason they were removed from the Liverpool to Cleethorpes service and haven’t been seen again despite a period of poorer than usual reliability from the 185

Thank you for the info regarding conductors too, I hadn’t realised that, it certainly reinforces the point that 09.12.2023 really is the end.

I’ve heard that there are currently four Class 185s out of Service with quite major problems.

The 46 diagrams plus ‘up to three more’ for route learning was always a fantasy from a fleet of 51, but shocking that from day 1 TPE can’t provide what little they told TfN they would.

 

[JonathanH]

Is Arriva Traincare at Scarborough shutting before the end of the year, or will it have some ongoing role in dealing with TPE operations?

 

[sjpowermac]

Is Arriva Traincare at Scarborough shutting before the end of the year, or will it have some ongoing role in dealing with TPE operations?

Servicing Class 185s, once the fuel lines and various other items of equipment are repositioned. There were some Class 185s there awhile back for measuring up. I don’t think the Class 802 units are going on there, but I’m not 100% sure on that.

 

[jus363]

Do we know where the Mk5 coaches are going to be stored after their use by TPE ?

 

[SprattyHeath]

I'm assuming that the Nova 3s will be withdrawn on the 10th of December? As that's when the December Timetable change occurs.

 

[Fokx]

I'm assuming that the Nova 3s will be withdrawn on the 10th of December? As that's when the December Timetable change occurs.

9th December will be the last service

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm assuming that the Nova 3s will be withdrawn on the 10th of December? As that's when the December Timetable change occurs.

+

9th December will be the last service

Yes it is mentioned up thread. TPE are sticking with all of the 185s instead of getting rid of a proportion of the 185s. The lease on the Mk5s ends in June 2024 iirc but TPE have taken the decision to have a timetable that manages without them from the change on 9-10/12.

Plenty of debate as to how the 185s will manage and I have my doubts. The only sensible thing I can see is it reduces TPEs fleet by one fleet type so should make operations easier. The Mk5s were left behind on the crew training front once the 802s arrived and so last minute cancellations were always a risk - not that I see that improving !.

I think TPE will be a little short of stock and minus a fleet that was more suitable for the longer distance services.

The death of a microfleet.

As for storage.
A bit of a guess but initially Crewe South Yard as now but I think the overflow will go to Gascoigne Wood once Longsight sheds the seven or so it no longer will use. These are both cold storage I believe (no shore supply or loco attached). So they will join the ranks of 379s - usable but unused and slowly deteriorating.

 

[kw12]

This month's Railway Magazine states (on page 88) that 'Transpennine Express (TPE) says it is in "active discussions" with the Department for Transport and Transport for the North regarding the future deployment of its Mk.5a 'Nova 3' coaching stock.' It does not provide any details.