TPE new style penalty fares warnings

[mikeg]

I see TPE have an, erm, interesting new penalty fares poster.
Can anyone tell me to what extent this is compliant with the penalty fare regulations? Also its unusual in stating an 'up to' amount. Is there any cap on penalty fares with TPE?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is TPE's highest Anytime Single fare £80, perhaps, therefore that's the maximum that could constitute "twice the single fare for your journey"?

Edit: it is, less 40p, indeed twice a "route Carlisle" Anytime Single from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh, which I'd bet on being their highest single fare at present (via York is more expensive but they aren't running that at present, are they?).

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

First Class is a bit pricier though.

Edit: First Class is just under £160 single, an outrageous multiplier, so a technical PF of £320.

 

[swt_passenger]

I see TPE have an, erm, interesting new penalty fares poster.
Can anyone tell me to what extent this is compliant with the penalty fare regulations?

If it is in addition to the standard poster (ie the black & yellow one) I suspect it doesn‘t have to use the same format.

But if it’s replaced the standard posters then it’s probably useless.

 

[DB]

Just when the railways need to be trying to attract back customers, they are at it again with the threats and over-the-top penalty fares! What a surprise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just when the railways need to be trying to attract back customers, they are at it again with the threats and over-the-top penalty fares! What a surprise.

It is to be fair the Penalty Fare that would be due if you travelled in Standard from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh and only got caught at the end. Or £320 if you did it in 1st! (Surprised they didn't use that as it would at least be factual; I suspect they looked for the highest Standard Anytime Single without looking at 1st).

It is a rather extreme and unlikely case, though.

 

[DB]

It is to be fair the Penalty Fare that would be due if you travelled in Standard from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh and only got caught at the end. Or £320 if you did it in 1st! (Surprised they didn't use that as it would at least be factual; I suspect they looked for the highest Standard Anytime Single without looking at 1st).

It is a rather extreme and unlikely case, though.

It is clearly an attempt to mislead the average passenger though - on a forum like this the situation is understood, but won't be by many passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is clearly an attempt to mislead the average passenger though - on a forum like this the situation is understood, but won't be by many passengers.

It's not (in Standard class) false, though, and the higher sum would be more of a deterrent than "it's only 20 quid". I actually think it's quite clever. Very similar, to be fair, to the "maximum fine" for pulling the red handle being stated on it (£200 in BR days, wasn't it?) - did anyone ever get fined rather than just shouted at/chucked off for it?

 

[Watershed]

Is TPE's highest Anytime Single fare £80, perhaps, therefore that's the maximum that could constitute "twice the single fare for your journey"?

Edit: it is, less 40p, indeed twice a "route Carlisle" Anytime Single from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh, which I'd bet on being their highest single fare at present (via York is more expensive but they aren't running that at present, are they?).

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

First Class is a bit pricier though.

Edit: First Class is just under £160 single, an outrageous multiplier, so a technical PF of £320.

Penalty Fares do not apply on TPE (or any other operator) within Scotland. Any journeys starting or finishing there cannot result in a Penalty Fare.

In any case, Berwick to Liverpool is a more expensive single fare than that - £100.80 - although admittedly it currently requires a change in Newcastle. In which case the maximum standard class PF for an all-TPE journey would be just over £200.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Penalty Fares do not apply on TPE (or any other operator) within Scotland. Any journeys starting or finishing there cannot result in a Penalty Fare.

In any case, Berwick to Liverpool is a more expensive single fare than that - £100.80 - although admittedly it currently requires a change in Newcastle. In which case the maximum standard class PF for an all-TPE journey would be just over £200.

So they've got their sums wrong. But let's say they correct them to double that fare to Berwick, I don't then see the issue with it - it's factual and a good warning. Just posting the "minimum £20" thing is a bit like posting "if you are caught without a ticket, Guard Bob might be in a good mood and let you off just this once". Which sounds a bit silly, but there are/were TOCs who have decidedly theoretical PF schemes - London Midland away from Birmingham was certainly one.

 

[mikeg]

To clarify, at least in its location it has replaced a standard penalty fare warning.

 

[DB]

So they've got their sums wrong. But let's say they correct them to double that fare to Berwick, I don't then see the issue with it - it's factual and a good warning. Just posting the "minimum £20" thing is a bit like posting "if you are caught without a ticket, Guard Bob might be in a good mood and let you off just this once". Which sounds a bit silly, but there are/were TOCs who have decidedly theoretical PF schemes - London Midland away from Birmingham was certainly one.

They could just state the actual facts (double the single fare for the journey you are making).

 

[island]

It’s the same as the face covering posters threatening a £6,400 fine, which is only applicable to the 6th and subsequent offences.

 

[Haywain]

They could just state the actual facts (double the single fare for the journey you are making).

But they are not the actual facts for all journeys.

 

[DB]

But they are not the actual facts for all journeys.

You mean those going into Scotland? Still not difficult to state the situation, is it? - twice the single anytime fare for any journeys within England.

 

[Watershed]

You mean those going into Scotland? Still not difficult to state the situation, is it? - twice the single anytime fare for any journeys within England.

I'd wager that the majority of Penalty Fares issued across all operators are for journeys where the single fare is less than £10. Clearly a Penalty Fare is not twice the single fare in that case.

 

[Clip]

I'd wager that the majority of Penalty Fares issued across all operators are for journeys where the single fare is less than £10. Clearly a Penalty Fare is not twice the single fare in that case.

Isn't it the case that the penalty fare rules state that it's £20 OR twice the single fare - which ever is GREATER?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't it the case that the penalty fare rules state that it's £20 OR twice the single fare - which ever is GREATER?

It is, yes. Which means for any journey where the fare is less than £10, it's just a flat £20.

I don't see a massive problem with this, to be honest. Surely everyone here would support the TOC doing what they can to deter fare dodging? A bit of "project fear" would surely be quite effective.

 

[py_megapixel]

Can anyone tell me to what extent this is compliant with the penalty fare regulations?

I am not a lawyer, but the regulation about what the PF notices have to contain seems pretty clear:

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

A standard notice must contain—

(a)the penalty fares logo as shown in Part 3;

(b)the word “WARNING” in large, prominent text at the top of the notice;

(c)the wording “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”;

(d)the wording “A Penalty Fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable to your journey (whichever is greater)”;

(e)wording which indicates where information about the circumstances in which a person may be charged a penalty fare in relation to travel by, presence on or leaving a train is published or may be obtained; and

(f)the logo, and name if the logo does not contain the name, of each operator that charges penalty fares in relation to trains arriving at or departing from the area of the station to which the notice applies.

(a) No - the penalty fares logo is that triangle with a ticket in it and "penalty fares" written underneath; it's not present on that notice.
(b) No
(c) No
(d) No
(e) Debatable
(f) Yes - contains the TPE logo, though without knowing which station this is we don't know if there are any other TOC logos which should be present

So it satisfies at most 2 of 6 of the requirements. Though it's worth noting I don't believe the legislation prevents operators from having separate signage about penalty fares; they just have to have the legally valid ones as well.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I am not a lawyer, but the regulation about what the PF notices have to contain seems pretty clear:

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

(a) No - the penalty fares logo is that triangle with a ticket in it and "penalty fares" written underneath; it's not present on that notice.
(b) No
(c) No
(d) No
(e) Debatable
(f) Yes - contains the TPE logo, though without knowing which station this is we don't know if there are any other TOC logos which should be present

So it satisfies at most 2 of 6 of the requirements. Though it's worth noting I don't believe the legislation prevents operators from having separate signage about penalty fares; they just have to have the legally valid ones as well.

The PF logo is present at the bottom left corner...Not exactly conspicuous, however!

It also suffers from the will/may problem that crops up with parking tickets on a regular basis. "You will have to pay..." - Except you won't if you appeal and it's successful.

 

[scrapy]

Ive not seen these posters but presumably the amount stated is the same no matter where the poster is located? The maximum penalty for example from York will be different to that from Liverpool for example.

If standard notices are also located at a station, do these posters also need to be compliant?

 

[onlinespotting]

The standard notice is in the small print at the bottom of the poster, next to the penalty fare sign

 

[Bletchleyite]

The standard notice is in the small print at the bottom of the poster, next to the penalty fare sign

It is, though it appears to be worded incorrectly.

 

[py_megapixel]

It is, though it appears to be worded incorrectly.

and also doesn't feature the word "WARNING" at the top.
Also, there's the important point that tiny text in light grey on white is really not an accessible design at all, as I suspect many people would have significant difficulties reading it. So while it might be (but probably isn't) in compliance with the regulations to the letter, it doesn't follow the spirit/purpose of them at all, which, as I understand it, is making it clear to all passengers that penalty fares are in operation.

 

[30907]

and also doesn't feature the word "WARNING" at the top.
Also, there's the important point that tiny text in light grey on white is really not an accessible design at all, as I suspect many people would have significant difficulties reading it. So while it might be (but probably isn't) in compliance with the regulations to the letter, it doesn't follow the spirit/purpose of them at all, which, as I understand it, is making it clear to all passengers that penalty fares are in operation.

True, but the main poster makes that abundantly clear.

 

[185143]

For the record, I'm fairly certain the station in question in the picture is Northallerton.

 

[py_megapixel]

For the record, I'm fairly certain the station in question in the picture is Northallerton.

If that's true, then surely the poster should be carrying the LNER and Grand Central logos as well?

 

[Darandio]

If that's true, then surely the poster should be carrying the LNER and Grand Central logos as well?

Neither operate a penalty fare scheme do they?

 

[Haywain]

If that's true, then surely the poster should be carrying the LNER and Grand Central logos as well?

Neither of whom operate a penalty fare scheme.

 

[Kite159]

For the record, I'm fairly certain the station in question in the picture is Northallerton.

The station famous for passengers looking out for which unit the guard is located and boarding the other unit in the hope of getting away without paying, if heading to York/Middlesbrough.

 

[Haywain]

The station famous for passengers looking out for which unit the guard is located and boarding the other unit in the hope of getting away without paying, if heading to York/Middlesbrough.

The only one?