TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

[LNW-GW Joint]

Or in other words TPE are happy to save the £££. FirstGroup strikes once again.

But the long-term train leasing and crewing costs have to be paid, so you are saving very little by keeping trains in the sidings.

 

[TheSel]

Was it 2 sets of Mk5's or just one? I saw it go past out of of the office window and it just seemed really long.

Post #6372 reports sets TP01/04/03.

 

[3973EXL]

23/11

5B32 37611 TP01
Realtime Trains - 507X 1139 Crewe South Yard to Longsight T.M.D. (D)

5B42
Realtime Trains - 523X 1433 Longsight T.M.D. (D) to Crewe South Yard

 

[VauxhallNova]

The number of faults and failures occurring on a daily basis, with only 4 out of 13 sets in passenger service each day, tells a different story. I shudder to think what would be happening right now if the fleet were fully deployed.

There is a huge amount of work yet to be done by CAF, both technically and organisationally, before the entry into service can be considered complete.

I beg to differ. I assume you have not been involved in introducing a fleet of new trains...

What is needed is a good shake down which would normally occur in the first months of squadron deployment. Utilisation of a few sets per day, as has been the case since introduction in August 2019, especially only covering a small number of miles, makes this incredibly difficult.

There is somewhat of a split between TPE operational staff who want to be using the things, and some at head office who have always been much less keen.

 

[tpjm]

I don’t think that’s a fair comment to be honest. There are lots of colleagues at HQ working tirelessly on the fleet, and as indicated in my earlier post, it makes their lives easier when more sets are in traffic and clocking up more mileage.

The biggest blocker to full deployment has been competent train crew, not least because of COVID. The question back in 2019 when the resource base started to get tight was very much “which fleet is most critical to the operation?” - across the core route, it was the 802 that won as it was required for the extensions to Edinburgh.

The key thing to note is that Watershed’s comments about a lack of working sets is pure fiction.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Agree. Have reworded.

 

[3973EXL]

5Q35 37611 1x5
Realtime Trains - 566X 1210 Crewe South Yard to Walton Old Jn.M.S.C.Sdgs

 

[185]

I note he does say 'some' at head office... I don't doubt the vast majority in Bridgewater House want to see these sets being used to their full potential, however there are those in the wonderful Ops Standards & Safety seemingly risk assessing the risk assessment of a risk assessment to justify their department's budget... as is the case at most other operators. The question should be asked, how did the (swift) rollout of the 185 crew training differ from the rollout with these? What extra levels of 'ops standards & safety signing stuff off' are slowing this process down?

 

[Class455]

The answer to this question might be a bit of a long shot at the moment, but is there any indication on when Nova 3's will start appearing on Redcar Central/Saltburn diagrams? Are they even cleared to run to Saltburn once the Redcar services extend in May?

 

[Watershed]

The answer to this question might be a bit of a long shot at the moment, but is there any indication on when Nova 3's will start appearing on Redcar Central/Saltburn diagrams?

Nothing in the public domain yet. And certainly nothing planned for the Dec TT.

Are they even cleared to run to Saltburn once the Redcar services extend in May?

Yes, in fact it's the 185s that aren't cleared to Saltburn yet!

The key thing to note is that Watershed’s comments about a lack of working sets is pure fiction.

I must be imagining the number of cancellations, delays and shortforms blamed on faulty sets/locos, plus the near bottom of the table MTIN. In several cases there has apparently been no working substitute available.

It's hardly a surprise when Longsight only have 2 sets not in traffic, and until (unless?) reliability increases, it will remain a problem as there isn't the space for Longsight to store any more spares.

 

[td97]

The answer to this question might be a bit of a long shot at the moment, but is there any indication on when Nova 3's will start appearing on Redcar Central/Saltburn diagrams? Are they even cleared to run to Saltburn once the Redcar services extend in May?

Not currently route cleared. Requires track and platform works - tamping, coper adjustments - which are currently underway. Including at stations along the line which will not feature a passenger stop but the carriages would otherwise foul.

 

[class 9]

I note he does say 'some' at head office... I don't doubt the vast majority in Bridgewater House want to see these sets being used to their full potential, however there are those in the wonderful Ops Standards & Safety seemingly risk assessing the risk assessment of a risk assessment to justify their department's budget... as is the case at most other operators. The question should be asked, how did the (swift) rollout of the 185 crew training differ from the rollout with these? What extra levels of 'ops standards & safety signing stuff off' are slowing this process down?

The swift roll out of 185 would of happened as it's a DMU, the training would just be a conversion course, as these are loco hauled, a completely different type of train, it would be a full training course.

 

[tpjm]

I must be imagining the number of cancellations, delays and shortforms blamed on faulty sets/locos, plus the near bottom of the table MTIN. In several cases there has apparently been no working substitute available.

That is not the same as your earlier comment which implied that there are rakes of coaches sitting at Longsight or some questionable siding awaiting CAF attention before they can be used. If that were the case, sets would not be travelling backwards and forwards across the Pennines behind a Class 37 as part of their maintenance cycles.

From recent experience, I would be inclined to suggest that the Mk5a/68 have seen no more technical/unit faults in the past few weeks than the Class 185 fleet. The key difference is that Class 185 failures can be mitigated relatively easily whilst the current Mk5a diagrams make it incredibly difficult. The primary objective of the control office is to keep some form of service running and if that means short forming a Redcar circuit, then so be it; running 3x6 and 3x5 is better than a cancellation. The attention then turns to exploring what can be done for later in the day, but being able to find a Driver, prepping a unit and tripping it across the country as an ECS in order to slot it back into diagram is just not realistic.

 

[AM9]

From recent experience, I would be inclined to suggest that the Mk5a/68 have seen no more technical/unit faults in the past few weeks than the Class 185 fleet.

That's a terrible endightment of a new design of hauled coaches, justifying their poor number of faults by comparing them with self-powered multiple units.

 

[PennineSuperb]

Not currently route cleared. Requires track and platform works - tamping, coper adjustments - which are currently underway. Including at stations along the line which will not feature a passenger stop but the carriages would otherwise foul.

This is unfortunately incorrectly. The work that has been underway (completed 14/11/21) was to make the necessary adjustments for Class 185 traction. Class 68’s & Mk5A are route cleared and have already completed the internal station verification works. Class 185’s have not, and this can not be completed until the correct paperwork is agreed between NR & TPE.

 

[tpjm]

That's a terrible endightment of a new design of hauled coaches, justifying their poor number of faults by comparing them with self-powered multiple units.

As you’ll note, I was referring to the loco AND coaches. You’ll also know that the Mk5a are not “just” coaches as they have plenty of technical complexity. They might as well be a MU, if not for the lack of a power train.

I was also not comparing them like for like, merely highlighting that their failure is more difficult to mask than that of a Class 185. It’s not a question of the rolling stock, it’s a statement about the current operational constraints of both fleets.

 

[td97]

This is unfortunately incorrectly. The work that has been underway (completed 14/11/21) was to make the necessary adjustments for Class 185 traction. Class 68’s & Mk5A are route cleared and have already completed the internal station verification works. Class 185’s have not, and this can not be completed until the correct paperwork is agreed between NR & TPE.

Apologies if I've misunderstood.
Mark 5a's, according to the sectional appendix, are not fully route cleared. There are 4 listed restrictions relating to deflated suspension (Redcar East Up, Longbeck Down, Markse Down and Saltburn P2). Equally the 185s are restricted here too.
Volker were tamping at Redcar East and Longbeck earlier this month.
It seems like a slight misunderstanding since the work completion and corresponding update to SA.

 

[37424]

The answer to this question might be a bit of a long shot at the moment, but is there any indication on when Nova 3's will start appearing on Redcar Central/Saltburn diagrams? Are they even cleared to run to Saltburn once the Redcar services extend in May?

I thought the view now was they wern't going to be used on Redcar services but on South Transpennine Services instead, in any case if they do get there I'm sure the local's will love the noise not!

 

[matacaster]

I thought the view now was they wern't going to be used on Redcar services but on South Transpennine Services instead, in any case if they do get there I'm sure the local's will love the noise not!

I have often wondered if the incredible noise level from these beasts was intended to make the placing of lookouts on possessions umnecessary. Is there a maximum DB limit for locos?

 

[47827]

I have often wondered if the incredible noise level from these beasts was intended to make the placing of lookouts on possessions umnecessary. Is there a maximum DB limit for locos?

The team who were signing them off at DRS when they were about to be built were satisfied with the noise aspects of the design, although better silencing could have been considered as per other classes that were built in the decades before. At the time it certainly wasn't an issue but the TPE lease work thrown a few spanners in the works following complaints at Scarborough.

 

[Greybeard33]

As you’ll note, I was referring to the loco AND coaches. You’ll also know that the Mk5a are not “just” coaches as they have plenty of technical complexity. They might as well be a MU, if not for the lack of a power train.

Which begs the question, what proportion of the failures are attributed to the loco? I have not seen any complaints about the reliability of 68s hauling Mk2 or Mk3 coaches, e.g. at Chiltern.

 

[matacaster]

The team who were signing them off at DRS when they were about to be built were satisfied with the noise aspects of the design, although better silencing could have been considered as per other classes that were built in the decades before. At the time it certainly wasn't an issue but the TPE lease work thrown a few spanners in the works following complaints at Scarborough.

Perhaps DRS team had hearing impairment or listening to iTunes?

 

[3973EXL]

25/11 5M42 37611 2x5

Realtime Trains - 534Y 1309 Scarborough Tmd to Crewe South Yard

 

[47827]

Perhaps DRS team had hearing impairment or listening to iTunes?

Some of the engineering guys had a great liking of noisy English Electric traction so I doubt drowning out noise would have been high on the list of concerns. Although I would never chase the things it's certainly noticeable they sound a little more lively than most stuff built since the 1980s.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

25/11 5M42 37611 2x5

Realtime Trains - 534Y 1309 Scarborough Tmd to Crewe South Yard

That's not long ago passed me at Leeds. 2x sets being hauled by 37611 in europhoenix livery and coupled to the blunt end of the first rake. So answers that question.....

 

[Mollman]

I thought the view now was they wern't going to be used on Redcar services but on South Transpennine Services instead, in any case if they do get there I'm sure the local's will love the noise not!

That was only if TPE took over Liverpool - Nottingham services I believe

 

[47827]

That was only if TPE took over Liverpool - Nottingham services I believe

There was a recent press announcement suggesting the new Liverpool to Cleethorpes route would eventually share the sets with Scarborough diagrams so that no sets would overnight at Scarborough any longer. Both routes would also retain 185 diagrams. What happens before that, if anything, I'm not aware of. Don't think there is any significant change in use from December though other than an extra couple of trains running between Scarborough and Liverpool plus the rest predominantly running to Manchester or Stalybridge instead of simply forming shuttles to York (Sundays unchanged from now).

 

[CHAPS2034]

That's not long ago passed me at Leeds. 2x sets being hauled by 37611 in europhoenix livery and coupled to the blunt end of the first rake. So answers that question.....

Reported as sets TP06 and TP10

In another empty stock move today 68029 is moving TP08 from Longsight to Gascoigne Wood

Realtime Trains - 547Y 1422 Longsight Car. M.D. to Gascoigne Wood Sidings

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Fokx]

That was only if TPE took over Liverpool - Nottingham services I believe

Nope.

2x Liverpool to Cleethropes diagrams from May 2022
6x Liverpool to Cleethorpes diagrams from Dec 2022

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2021 ==

 

[xotGD]

Nope.

2x Liverpool to Cleethropes diagrams from May 2022
6x Liverpool to Cleethorpes diagrams from Dec 2022

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2021 ==

Do you also happen to know how many Scarborough diagrams from those dates?