TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

[paddyb6]

In the trains' normal formation, will the loco be facing Leeds/York, or Manchester/Liverpool?

Not 100% sure but, I'm sure its the loco facing East

 

[The_Train]

In the trains' normal formation, will the loco be facing Leeds/York, or Manchester/Liverpool?

The only times I've seen the sets are during test runs up and down the WCML and the loco has always been at the North end of the formation so based on this I would guess it to be facing towards Yorkshire when in normal service

 

[TRAX]

Not 100% sure but, I'm sure its the loco facing East

So are you 100 % sure or not ?

 

[sjpowermac]

In the trains' normal formation, will the loco be facing Leeds/York, or Manchester/Liverpool?

First Class at the front into Liverpool Lime Street, so the loco will be on the buffers there.

 

[sjpowermac]

0P68 04:55 Longsight to York was 68028 ‘Lord President’ again this morning, now parked on the Exam road at York. 68024 ‘Centaur’ is on York P SD (a possible candidate for 0M68 in the morning), 68032 ‘Destroyer’ is still at Scarborough.

I notice 0P68/0M68 are booked to run all next week as well.

 

[sjpowermac]

The only times I've seen the sets are during test runs up and down the WCML and the loco has always been at the North end of the formation so based on this I would guess it to be facing towards Yorkshire when in normal service

When the Nova 3 trips ran to Scarborough for track circuit testing and then later platform positioning, there was always a test one day with the loco on the Scarborough end, and the next with the loco on the ‘Liverpool’ end. So I think all options are covered, but as I understand it the loco is planned to be on the buffers at Lime Street.

 

[The Northern Star]

Next TPE MK5 delivery to MID...

5V81: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97262/2019/06/02/advanced

5Q42: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K00302/2019/06/03/advanced

5M59: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K00301/2019/06/03/advanced

 

[AndrewE]

First Class at the front into Liverpool Lime Street, so the loco will be on the buffers there.

... but as I understand it the loco is planned to be on the buffers at Lime Street.

Well, there's an opportunity missed then. Only 1 enclosed terminal station on the route.. and they plan to put the diesel locos on the stop blocks.
I suppose the sets aren't long enough for the locos to be outside the trainshed if they were at the east end though. Let's hope they shut them down whenever possible, though I doubt it "will be possible." What a pity they aren't dual mode, so that they could run off the OLE west of Manchester (and especially under the Lime St roof.)

 

[hexagon789]

Well, there's an opportunity missed then. Only 1 enclosed terminal station on the route.. and they plan to put the diesel locos on the stop blocks.
I suppose the sets aren't long enough for the locos to be outside the trainshed if they were at the east end though. Let's hope they shut them down whenever possible, though I doubt it "will be possible." What a pity they aren't dual mode, so that they could run off the OLE west of Manchester.

I would imagine they'll be left running to supply the coaches.

 

[sjpowermac]

Well, there's an opportunity missed then. Only 1 enclosed terminal station on the route.. and they plan to put the diesel locos on the stop blocks.
I suppose the sets aren't long enough for the locos to be outside the trainshed if they were at the east end though. Let's hope they shut them down whenever possible, though I doubt it "will be possible." What a pity they aren't dual mode, so that they could run off the OLE west of Manchester (and especially under the Lime St roof.)

Scarborough is a terminal station with the TPE platforms under a roof, so I’m not sure about the point you are making.

At least with this arrangement the loco will definitely be outside the roof at Scarborough, the 3 car 185s only just fit inside.

Regarding ‘bi-mode’ do you mean IEP/Nova 1 trains or ‘bi-mode’ locomotives? As I understand it the Class 88 packs under 1000 hp on diesel, so I think it would have struggled over the Pennines. Even the Class 93 being built for ROG is, I believe, only 2000 hp, so not really in the Class 68 bracket for performance on diesel.

 

[hexagon789]

Regarding ‘bi-mode’ do you mean IEP/Nova 1 trains or ‘bi-mode’ locomotives? As I understand it the Class 88 packs under 1000 hp on diesel, so I think it would have struggled over the Pennines. Even the Class 93 being built for ROG is, I believe, only 2000 hp, so not really in the Class 68 bracket for performance on diesel.

Neither are - the 88 is 940hp on diesel the 93 1,800 on diesel+battery. Though the 93 is a lot more powerful on electric 5,438hp and is 110mph capable. I think I read that TPE were considering 88s for the Mk5s? Though that may well be another rumour.

 

[AndrewE]

Scarborough is a terminal station with the TPE platforms under a roof, so I’m not sure about the point you are making.

How about "diesel locos idling under an overall roof are a VERY BAD IDEA?" In a big city with already polluted air?

At least with this arrangement the loco will definitely be outside the roof at Scarborough, the 3 car 185s only just fit inside.

It's a long time since I was at Scarborough, I hadn't remembered an overall roof. It's good that the locos will be outside there, but I don't imagine the surrounding pollution is anything like Liverpool's city centre air.

Regarding ‘bi-mode’ do you mean IEP/Nova 1 trains or ‘bi-mode’ locomotives? As I understand it the Class 88 packs under 1000 hp on diesel, so I think it would have struggled over the Pennines. Even the Class 93 being built for ROG is, I believe, only 2000 hp, so not really in the Class 68 bracket for performance on diesel.

It would be nice to have a diesel loco (seeing as this is in the mark 5a coaching stock thread) that can also use the OLE without too poor a performance away from the wires. Maybe compromising on the size of the transformer and limiting the output on OLE would allow a diesel big enough for acceptable performance?

 

[Meerkat]

Is a fixed automatic coupler at the buffer stops end with shore supply either technically impracticable or just too big a reliability risk?

 

[sjpowermac]

How about "diesel locos idling under an overall roof are a VERY BAD IDEA?"

I answered your original question politely and factually, so I’m really not sure why you feel the need to use capital letters in your response.

As I understand it the decision regarding which end to put first class was so that it would be nearest the stops at both Liverpool and Man Air, both seen as prime destinations for the TPE route. I think the reasoning being the same as having first class on the buffers for trains in London.

Just to add, I’ve got no connection to TPE whatsoever, so it’s definitely not my decision that you are objecting to

I think the Class 93 currently under design/construction is about as good as current technology gets, and it wouldn’t meet the diesel spec over the core TPE route.

 

[sjpowermac]

Neither are - the 88 is 940hp on diesel the 93 1,800 on diesel+battery. Though the 93 is a lot more powerful on electric 5,438hp and is 110mph capable. I think I read that TPE were considering 88s for the Mk5s? Though that may well be another rumour.

Earlier this year, I read an interview in ‘Today’s Railways’ with a DRS engineer and apparently Class 68s can be converted to Class 88s, but it’s not a simple task.

I think one proposal was that once wires are up over the Pennines the Mk5a sets could be switched to Newcastle services with electric locos, with the Nova 1 sets switching to Scarborough and Middlesbrough services.

That said, I think by the time the core route over the Pennines has been electrified, even the Class 93 will be considered ‘old’ technology

 

[hexagon789]

Earlier this year, I read an interview in ‘Today’s Railways’ with a DRS engineer and apparently Class 68s can be converted to Class 88s, but it’s not a simple task.

As they are similar locos presumably that would be all the gubbins inside.

I think one proposal was that once wires are up over the Pennines the Mk5a sets could be switched to Newcastle services with electric locos, with the Nova 1 sets switching to Scarborough and Middlesbrough services.

That sounds like what I read somewhere, it would certainly be an idea upon electrification.

That said, I think by the time the core route over the Pennines has been electrified, even the Class 93 will be considered ‘old’ technology

Quite possibly! Though I'd hope it would be sooner than that!

 

[AndrewE]

I answered your original question politely and factually, so I’m really not sure why you feel the need to use capital letters in your response.

Perhaps I should have said "diesel locos idling under an overall roof are a very bad idea." Sorry, i didn't realise you were so sensitive.

As I understand it the decision regarding which end to put first class was so that it would be nearest the stops at both Liverpool and Man Air, both seen as prime destinations for the TPE route. I think the reasoning being the same as having first class on the buffers for trains in London.

I couldn't give a toss whether first class is on the buffers or not, it's the sort of logic that pushes other far more desirable priorities down the list (like having a diesel idling in the heart of the trainshed at Liverpool and closest to the passenger building at Man Airport.)

Is a fixed automatic coupler at the buffer stops end with shore supply either technically impracticable or just too big a reliability risk?

That is an excellent idea, if the "hotel power" can actually be fed through the loco.
If trains can couple en route then why can't trains couple up to a buffer stop?

 

[sjpowermac]

Perhaps I should have said "diesel locos idling under an overall roof are a very bad idea." Sorry, i didn't realise you were so sensitive.
I couldn't give a toss whether first class is on the buffers or not, it's the sort of logic that pushes other far more desirable priorities down the list (like having a diesel idling in the heart of the trainshed at Liverpool and closest to the passenger building at Man Airport.)
That is an excellent idea, if the "hotel power" can actually be fed through the loco.
If trains can couple en route then why can't trains couple up to a buffer stop?

Your original post is correct, since the trains are only five coaches, the loco will be within the trainshed at Liverpool Lime Street choose which end the locomotive is on.

With respect, there’s not much point in telling me all this, I’ve merely answered your questions and quoted reasons given by others ‘in the know’ earlier in the thread. You could write to TPE and let us all know their response.

 

[billio]

... It's a long time since I was at Scarborough, I hadn't remembered an overall roof. It's good that the locos will be outside there, ...

Here is a picture of the overall roof with couple of 'engines', the bid one switched off at the time. I agree about keeping diesel emissions to a minimum.

 

[ash39]

Perhaps I should have said "diesel locos idling under an overall roof are a very bad idea." Sorry, i didn't realise you were so sensitive.
I couldn't give a toss whether first class is on the buffers or not, it's the sort of logic that pushes other far more desirable priorities down the list (like having a diesel idling in the heart of the trainshed at Liverpool and closest to the passenger building at Man Airport.)
That is an excellent idea, if the "hotel power" can actually be fed through the loco.
If trains can couple en route then why can't trains couple up to a buffer stop?

I don't know the exact data but I wouldn't be surprised if a single 68 puts out less pollution (1 large 3800hp engine) vs a pair of 185's (6x 750hp engines). I expect for longer turnarounds the loco will be shut down too, as the units are now.

I'm confused as to why you think the orientation of the mk5 has such a substantial bearing on the pollution of Liverpool. Do you think if the loco in on the east end 60 metres away from the buffers it'll magically keep the exhaust fallout in Manchester?!

 

[The_Train]

I doubt that there are many 'enclosed' stations that don't already have diesel trains idling under the train shed so why the big concern if a 68 is doing the same thing? I should also add that I don't recall TPE having a massive electric fleet nor do I remember anyone suggesting that the 185s should stop short of the train shed at Manchester Piccadilly.

Pollutants have been around for quite a few years now so it does amaze me that it's suddenly becoming some sort of 'international crisis'. I wonder if this has any connection to the recent surge in sensationalist journalism which can be quickly spread via social media?

 

[Ben Bow]

Could I suggest that the worst "pollution" from 68's at any station, but especially those where the loco is under a roof, will be noise....

 

[sjpowermac]

Could I suggest that the worst "pollution" from 68's at any station, but especially those where the loco is under a roof, will be noise....

I’m pretty sure you are spot on with that

 

[xotGD]

Could I suggest that the worst "pollution" from 68's at any station, but especially those where the loco is under a roof, will be noise....

Yes, we are looking forward to it!

 

[modernrail]

I doubt that there are many 'enclosed' stations that don't already have diesel trains idling under the train shed so why the big concern if a 68 is doing the same thing? I should also add that I don't recall TPE having a massive electric fleet nor do I remember anyone suggesting that the 185s should stop short of the train shed at Manchester Piccadilly.

Pollutants have been around for quite a few years now so it does amaze me that it's suddenly becoming some sort of 'international crisis'. I wonder if this has any connection to the recent surge in sensationalist journalism which can be quickly spread via social media?

I think might be more to do with a better understanding of the damage that can be done by pollution, especially 'unseen' pollution like particulate matter. Railway workers and those working on railway premises will be particularly affected due to the amount of exposure. Don't forget, closing the garage door and turning the engine on is considered a pretty effective way to bring about your early demise.

In a way saying it is a fuss over nothing is like saying the fuss over asbestos was over nothing.

There is obviously a balance to be struck whilst the railway moves to better forms of power. I would hope these locomotives are running for the absolute minimum amount if time in enclosed spaces. One thing I am not sure on is whether this would also mean no hotel power for lighting and A/C if they are switched off quickly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I don't understand is why the UK doesn't do shore supplies and prefers to leave the diesel engine filthily idling away. It should be turned off immediately on arrival and a shore supply plugged in.

 

[The Northern Star]

37611 for tomorrows MK5 drag to MID

 

[68011]

37611 for tomorrows MK5 drag to MID

They are Mk5A's not MK5's, there is a big difference between the two.

 

[xotGD]

They are Mk5A's not MK5's, there is a big difference between the two.

So what is the big difference?

 

[fowler9]

The roof at Lime Street is very high. Not sure it would make much difference what end the loco was at, especially if wind direction was taken in to account.