TPE Loop: Edinburgh - ECML/WCML - Manchester

[Gathursty]

I wonder if having TPE run a circular service in both directions looping from Manchester to Edinburgh via the ECML one way and the WCML another way would be worthwhile.

I suggest calling points of:
Edinburgh, Haymarket, Lockerbie*, Carlisle, Oxenholme*, Penrith, Lancaster, Preston, Salford Crescent*, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield*, Leeds, York, Northallerton*, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth*, Berwick and Dunbar.
*Fewer calls at these stations.
I'm not sure where TPE depots are so I may come a cropper here.

 

[Devon Sunset]

I don’t see this happening for several reasons. Different stock on the ECML(802) to that used on the WCML(397), importing delays from one side of the country to the other, I’m sure others will come up with more. On the subject of depot’s, why no TPE depot in Edinburgh when it has more services than Glasgow? Unless there are people signing on remotely then there must be loads of early/late taxis or travelling passenger involved?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Circular services aren't a great idea in most cases, there's a reason the Circle Line isn't a circle any longer.
You also gain very little by omitting calls at Huddersfield as the linespeed through the station for non-stopping services is so low. I suspect you've suggested that because "Huddersfield doesn't have an overgrown church so can't possibly be worth stopping everything at", as that's the usual reason for such suggestions.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I don’t see this happening for several reasons. Different stock on the ECML(802) to that used on the WCML(397), importing delays from one side of the country to the other, I’m sure others will come up with more. On the subject of depot’s, why no TPE depot in Edinburgh when it has more services than Glasgow? Unless there are people signing on remotely then there must be loads of early/late taxis or travelling passenger involved?

There is a lot of passenger travelling from Glasgow in normal times, particularly in the morning it's common to see members of TPE staff heading for the Edinburgh services. I think the Newcastle - Edinburgh TP services are probably crewed by those from Newcastle, with the exception of a few early morning workings.

I think the same is similar with Avanti who don't have crew based in Edinburgh, but instead bring them in from Glasgow.

 

[Ianno87]

Also, what cross-Edinburgh demand will there actually be, given that Newcastle-Carlisle is significantly faster via Hexham?

 

[37424]

Well there is the more than slight issue that York to Manchester isn't electrified so the 397's might have a slight problem. If and when it is I don't see much benefit other than some kind of operational convenience.

 

[p.d87]

There is a lot of passenger travelling from Glasgow in normal times, particularly in the morning it's common to see members of TPE staff heading for the Edinburgh services. I think the Newcastle - Edinburgh TP services are probably crewed by those from Newcastle, with the exception of a few early morning workings.

I think the same is similar with Avanti who don't have crew based in Edinburgh, but instead bring them in from Glasgow.

I'd hope avanti have an Edinburgh depot otherwise I'm now out of a job. There's driver's, train managers, catering and platform staff based there.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I'd hope avanti have an Edinburgh depot otherwise I'm now out of a job. There's driver's, train managers, catering and platform staff based there.

Must be a small depot surely, given Avanti only operate every 2 hours out of Edinburgh, unless you also interwork over to Glasgow?

 

[Bald Rick]

Key question... Why?

 

[p.d87]

Must be a small depot surely, given Avanti only operate every 2 hours out of Edinburgh, unless you also interwork over to Glasgow?

It's small compared to Glasgow however not tiny. We do inter work with Glasgow. Diagrams have us start/finish at home depot but can include work from others

 

[waverley47]

God this would be a nightmare to path. As Bald Rick asked, why are we doing this?

Because it might open up cross Edinburgh links? If you want a local service, then Edinburgh has a decent bus service, and any local crossrail style service would need to stop everywhere, at all the local stations.

If you wanted a long distance through service, the only real route not served more conveniently by Newcastle to Carlisle would be from Carlisle/Lockerbie to Dunbar/Berwick, which I can't imagine is that lucrative. Edinburgh is not a bad station to change at, and the numbers of people using this service would be negligible.

If you're looking at it from a timetabling perspective, as others have pointed out, the services use different rolling stock, and are crewed by different depots. One is hourly, the other two hourly. The timetables won't match up and circular services aren't great from a planning perspective: they tend to carry delays round and round. You'd end up with a delayed stopper in Manchester knocking on more delays right through the central belt of Scotland, down the ECML and right back into Manchester again, seven hours after the train left. The layover in Edinburgh is good for cleaning and recovery.

In short, it's probably not worth it, mainly for the reasons of convenience. It would just be a bit too annoying to work out, without enough gained to justify it.

 

[Gathursty]

Circular services aren't a great idea in most cases, there's a reason the Circle Line isn't a circle any longer.
You also gain very little by omitting calls at Huddersfield as the linespeed through the station for non-stopping services is so low. I suspect you've suggested that because "Huddersfield doesn't have an overgrown church so can't possibly be worth stopping everything at", as that's the usual reason for such suggestions.

No, just because then you could use go via Hebden Bridge as an alternative.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No, just because then you could use go via Hebden Bridge as an alternative.

Which is a slower route, and it isn't worth omitting a fairly significant stop just to save a couple of replacement buses on the odd occasion that the line is under a possession. Particularly if only some of your services omit it anyway as you still have to bustitute the ones that do call.

 

[mrgreen]

Another reason why circular service are a bad idea is the confusion for passengers: what are you going to put as the destination on the screens? What would be the ticket validity (how far round the circle could you go on a single)? How many less-savvy passengers would waste their time going the long way round between stations on the circle?
In this case, it's obviously never going to happen as Newcastle-Carlisle is 2tph (pre-Covid), taking 1.5 very scenic hours... so no sane person would spend nearly 3h going via Edinburgh. There's little in the way of intermediate trade apart from Berwick, and Berwick - Carlisle takes much the same time via Newcastle or Edinburgh, so even for this flow the circular service wouldn't give a time advantage.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Classic "crayonista" idea - sorry to rain on your parade.

Circular services - yes an extreme - London - are not great. Generations of management trainees for LT (old school) were asked to investigate it and it took several decades for the obvious removal of it to be done. Crewing was an important part in the deliberations as to what is there now.

 

[waverley47]

I would like to add some positivity to the thread through by imagining just how this would be advertised at Manchester airport.

"This is the 08.42 service to Liverpool via Manchester, Preston, Carlisle, Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Leeds, Manchester and arriving into Liverpool at approximately 16.00." I dread to think how many tourists would not notice and simply stay on.

 

[tbtc]

I strongly resist this, but not for the obvious reasons.

If this Forum has taught me anything its that there's apparently a huge demand to get from Leeds to Glasgow (which is oft brought up when justifying some slightly ambitious scheme involving 125mph trains through Settle so that people can have a scenic wee jaunt)...

...so surely the OP needs to be a bit more ambitious and turn this into a Glasgow Central, Motherwell, Carstairs, Lockerbie, Carlisle, Oxenholme, Penrith, Lancaster, Preston, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Reston, Dunbar, East Linton, Waverley, Haymarket, Breich, Glasgow Central? That way you turn Leeds to Glasgow into the "turn up and go" frequency that it apparently requires.

 

[fishwomp]

Since a valid route is any taken on a direct train.. I would enjoy 8 hours of travel for the price of a single from Man Vic to Salford Crescent.

Or, if I happen to go on one that didn't stop at Salford on the first lap, I would gladly have two (or more) laps until it did!

Can we get some decent haulage too, avoid the problem of gaps in the wires by hiring in D9000.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Another reason why circular service are a bad idea is the confusion for passengers: what are you going to put as the destination on the screens?

Not a circular service but I do know someone who was travelling from Birmingham to Crewe and wondered why his Edinburgh train took him to Derby! Two trains from Birmingham to Edinburgh, one 'direct' (West Coast) and one on the longer slower route via Derby/York on opposite faces of the same island platform with either the same departure time or only a minute or two variance.

 

[route101]

There is a lot of passenger travelling from Glasgow in normal times, particularly in the morning it's common to see members of TPE staff heading for the Edinburgh services. I think the Newcastle - Edinburgh TP services are probably crewed by those from Newcastle, with the exception of a few early morning workings.

I think the same is similar with Avanti who don't have crew based in Edinburgh, but instead bring them in from Glasgow.

I think some drivers at Glasgow TPE are trained on 802s. I see LNER staff in Glasgow often but may just be living through here and commuting through. Not sure how the sole LNER Glasgow service is crewed.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I think some drivers at Glasgow TPE are trained on 802s. I see LNER staff in Glasgow often but may just be living through here and commuting through. Not sure how the sole LNER Glasgow service is crewed.

Full crew to Glasgow, including catering. Then I think it's passenger back to Edinburgh.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Full crew to Glasgow, including catering. Then I think it's passenger back to Edinburgh.

Do they still take the ECS to Polmadie - I was surprised to see the LNER set there a couple of years ago as I had always assumed it would go back to Craigentinny (which perhaps it does now it is an IEP).

 

[Ianno87]

Full crew to Glasgow, including catering. Then I think it's passenger back to Edinburgh.

Do they still take the ECS to Polmadie - I was surprised to see the LNER set there a couple of years ago as I had always assumed it would go back to Craigentinny (which perhaps it does now it is an IEP).

Goes to Polmadie (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y11480/2021-01-07/detailed).

Basically the only reason the daily Glasgow services exists at all.