TPE franchise awarded to First

[Dave1987]

I'd like to point something out to the Hitachi appreciation society that seems to have grown on this forum. Seems some of you would quite happily see the entire country dominated by Hitachi trains. I travel from London to the Midlands frequently and I choose to go by Chiltern because their trains are far more comfortable than a Virgins pendos, and I know of many others who do the same. Chiltern have built a reputation for having quality rolling stock and their "mainline" loco hauled stock is particularly comfortable and quiet. A world away from the see how many seats we can cram into a coach brigade. Maybe First are looking at the Chiltern model.

 

[Hophead]

One for the engineers (posted by someone who quite plainly is not....)

Is there any chance that the stock could be unpowered 5-car MUs with all the electricity for onboard services coming from the diesel locomotive? Once the wires are in place, the electrical equipment goes under the carriages, the pantograph goes onto the roof, and you've got yourself a 5-car EMU.

Or is that even crazier still?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I'd like to point something out to the Hitachi appreciation society that seems to have grown on this forum. Seems some of you would quite happily see the entire country dominated by Hitachi trains. I travel from London to the Midlands frequently and I choose to go by Chiltern because their trains are far more comfortable than a Virgins pendos, and I know of many others who do the same. Chiltern have built a reputation for having quality rolling stock and their "mainline" loco hauled stock is particularly comfortable and quiet. A world away from the see how many seats we can cram into a coach brigade. Maybe First are looking at the Chiltern model.

The Hitachi sets are comfortable and well fitted out. They're genuinely up there with the Chiltern sets, and they're not any more 'crammed in' than a Chiltern Mark 3. They've got more seats because they're a longer, better designed coach.

Pitch is as good as an old Mark 3 and there are lots of tables, high density AT300 coaches would take 100-104 passengers, 88 is a good figure.

And we're not really discussing DMUs here, but EMUs. We're looking at a post electrification landscape for TransPennine and there's nothing to separate a good EMU (which the Hitachi units are) and LHCS with an electric loco at the helm. It is absolutely true that from a passenger perspective, a loco hauled coaches is better than a diesel unit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One for the engineers (posted by someone who quite plainly is not....)

Is there any chance that the stock could be unpowered 5-car MUs with all the electricity for onboard services coming from the diesel locomotive? Once the wires are in place, the electrical equipment goes under the carriages, the pantograph goes onto the roof, and you've got yourself a 5-car EMU.

Or is that even crazier still?

Yes, it was one option put forward.

Virgin used Class 57 locomotives to haul 8 and 9 car Pendolino EMU stock from Crewe to Holyhead. There were some design issues which weren't fully resolved and it wasn't an optimal solution, but there's nothing to stop TransPennine hauling, say, Hitachi Class 801 type (the electric only IEP design) units around with a diesel locomotive until electrification is complete.

It could be one of the best options, actually.

 

[Class 170101]

How will TPE be able to match XC and Virgin timings when it is required to serve Thirsk, Northallerton and Chester-le-Street, as well as Darlington and Durham, and will serve Morpeth every hour once it starts running north of Newcastle? The new trains may be able to keep up with Virgin and XC services at full tilt but you can't magically vanish the time needed to make those station stops.

How about the Newcastle service calling at the smaller stations whilst the Edinburgh service is York, Darlington, Newcastle, Morpeth, (Berwick), Edinburgh only?

Or is there a requirement for the Edinburgh to call at the other stations north of York as well?

 

[Hophead]

Yes, it was one option put forward.

Virgin used Class 57 locomotives to haul 8 and 9 car Pendolino EMU stock from Crewe to Holyhead. There were some design issues which weren't fully resolved and it wasn't an optimal solution, but there's nothing to stop TransPennine hauling, say, Hitachi Class 801 type (the electric only IEP design) units around with a diesel locomotive until electrification is complete.

It could be one of the best options, actually.

I see that, but I was suggesting an MU that was, in the short-term. completely unpowered. Or, to put it another way, an EMU with no capability to draw power until the electrical equipment is installed (i.e. no "E").

As I understand things, Hitachi already have a pretty full order book, so getting hold of Class 800/801 units is tricky. Besides, if you're going down that road, you may as well sling a diesel engine under the floor and keep it standard.

 

[NotATrainspott]

It could be that the limiting factor is on the engine supply side. Perhaps CAF could build DMU vehicles but they'd then have to sit in a yard in Northern Spain for two years until engines were ready to be fitted- in which case they'd be neither use nor ornament. Hitachi are busy with the assorted SET/AT200/AT300 orders already in, Siemens are busy with 700s and Bombardier (at least at Derby) are busy with the 345s. CAF have just the Northern and Cally Sleepers which are smaller orders than all of the above.

This is of course ignoring any non-UK orders any of the above have in addition. Derby and Newton Aycliffe don't have any overseas work as yet but I'd be surprised if the others only have the current UK orders.

If that were the issue, then why not use your engine-less DMUs as the loco hauled stock? When engines could be fitted, it would mean the diesel loco could be dispensed of and then you would be left with an entirely standard DMU for use anywhere on the network. You could even make a case for 5 car DMUs to be used, as the extra intermediate vehicles could later be used to extend 2-car sets to 3-car.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I see that, but I was suggesting an MU that was, in the short-term. completely unpowered. Or, to put it another way, an EMU with no capability to draw power until the electrical equipment is installed (i.e. no "E").

As I understand things, Hitachi already have a pretty full order book, so getting hold of Class 800/801 units is tricky. Besides, if you're going down that road, you may as well sling a diesel engine under the floor and keep it standard.

There will be very little difference in delivery times from ordering the stock without the traction package fitted, and there's likely to be additional acceptance testing needed for a unit without the traction package installed, requirement for ballast to replace transformers and so on.

The limiting factor for bi-mode units is obtaining enough diesel units and alternator packs, as has been said further up thread, they've got a longer lead time and have been ordered for a long time.

It should be possible for Hitachi to deliver the electric only variant of the AT300 family very quickly now they've got three assembly plants now in operation.

 

[Ianno87]

I was thinking today, stuck at Pendleton waiting for a southbound path through Salford Crescent, that a 3rd (eastern) platform on the through line would help a great deal, especially towards Victoria.
Basically Bolton-Victoria traffic would then be clear of Atherton-Oxford Road traffic.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No it wouldn't : you'd also need to substantially remodel Windsor Bridge South Jn to create parallel routes, which would probably kill the line speed through the junction due to the way in which the Victoria lines climb away.

In addition, the Up starter signal overlaps I beleive foul the merge of the Up through and platform lines at the south end so one can't bring in trains on to both lines simultaneously.

Plus there are no direct Atherton-Oxford Rd services in normal operation anyway.

What would be useful is removing the restrictive approach control for Up trains from Bolton into the Up platform.

 

[northwichcat]

Following the questions about calling patterns for Scottish services, a track access application indicates the following:

Manchester Airport to Glasgow
Regular: Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Carstairs,
Motherwell
Additional: Bolton

Manchester Airport to Edinburgh
Regular: Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Haymarket
Additional: Bolton

Liverpool to Glasgow
Regular: St Helens Central, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Carlisle
Additional: None

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...al agreement_package b wcml from pcd 2017.pdf

It also looks like TPE want to extend Manchester Airport-York services to Newcastle this year using 185s: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ntal agreement_pcd 2016 contingent rights.pdf
I'm not sure where the stock will come from unless they stop loaning 185s to Northern.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Virgin used Class 57 locomotives to haul 8 and 9 car Pendolino EMU stock from Crewe to Holyhead. There were some design issues which weren't fully resolved and it wasn't an optimal solution, but there's nothing to stop TransPennine hauling, say, Hitachi Class 801 type (the electric only IEP design) units around with a diesel locomotive until electrification is complete. It could be one of the best options, actually.

Well, it certainly gives a precedent for TPE to consider.

 

[Senex]

Manchester Airport to Glasgow
Regular: Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Carstairs,
Motherwell
Additional: Bolton

Manchester Airport to Edinburgh
Regular: Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Haymarket
Additional: Bolton

Liverpool to Glasgow
Regular: St Helens Central, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Carlisle
Additional: None

So the intention really is that the Manchester-Scotland service should be semi-fasts only. Interesting that the Liverpools will apparently at least miss out Penrith and will then run fast from Carlisle to Glasgow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the intention really is that the Manchester-Scotland service should be semi-fasts only. Interesting that the Liverpools will apparently at least miss out Penrith and will then run fast from Carlisle to Glasgow.

I wonder if that is a mistake, as I thought they were to portion-work with Manchesters.

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder if that is a mistake, as I thought they were to portion-work with Manchesters.

Doesn't look like that's the plan. They've applied for 3 Liverpool-Glasgow paths alongside 9 Manchester-Glasgow paths opposed to 9 Manchester-Glasgow path and 3 Liverpool-Preston paths.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I wonder if that is a mistake, as I thought they were to portion-work with Manchesters.

No, TPE has already said they will be separate services.
It remains to be seen how they will be "flighted" with the other WCML services.
The committed TPE WCML journey times are no faster than now (ie 100mph).

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'd like to point something out to the Hitachi appreciation society that seems to have grown on this forum. Seems some of you would quite happily see the entire country dominated by Hitachi trains. I travel from London to the Midlands frequently and I choose to go by Chiltern because their trains are far more comfortable than a Virgins pendos, and I know of many others who do the same. Chiltern have built a reputation for having quality rolling stock and their "mainline" loco hauled stock is particularly comfortable and quiet. A world away from the see how many seats we can cram into a coach brigade. Maybe First are looking at the Chiltern model.

Apparently your personal preference over a train you've never travelled on is more important than everything else? Got it!

 

[Dave1987]

Apparently your personal preference over a train you've never travelled on is more important than everything else? Got it!

Could say the same to you about wanting the entire network dominated by bi-modes when the first aren't even in operation yet so you don't know how good or bad they will be.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Hitachi sets are comfortable and well fitted out. They're genuinely up there with the Chiltern sets, and they're not any more 'crammed in' than a Chiltern Mark 3. They've got more seats because they're a longer, better designed coach.

Pitch is as good as an old Mark 3 and there are lots of tables, high density AT300 coaches would take 100-104 passengers, 88 is a good figure.

And we're not really discussing DMUs here, but EMUs. We're looking at a post electrification landscape for TransPennine and there's nothing to separate a good EMU (which the Hitachi units are) and LHCS with an electric loco at the helm. It is absolutely true that from a passenger perspective, a loco hauled coaches is better than a diesel unit.

Can't say I've ever traveled pass on a genuinely comfortable EMU tbh. Does the electric only AT300 have a flat floor?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Could say the same to you about wanting the entire network dominated by bi-modes when the first aren't even in operation yet so you don't know how good or bad they will be.

Comfort is not the only priority when it comes to the network. We know the operational advantages it will bring and the spec, and all you're bringing to the table is doom-and-gloom without any evidence to support it.

So no, you can't just say we're in the same boat and plod on because you're bitter about bimodes dominating - something we all know you opposed for a myriad reasons.

 

[Dave1987]

Comfort is not the only priority when it comes to the network. We know the operational advantages it will bring and the spec, and all you're bringing to the table is doom-and-gloom without any evidence to support it.

So no, you can't just say we're in the same boat and plod on because you're bitter about bimodes dominating - something we all know you opposed for a myriad reasons.

Well I would say comfort isn't a priority at all as far as the DFT are concerned. Headline figures are all that matters but we are never going to agree so end of.

 

[notlob.divad]

Following the questions about calling patterns for Scottish services, a track access application indicates the following:

Manchester Airport to Glasgow
Regular: Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Carstairs,
Motherwell
Additional: Bolton

Manchester Airport to Edinburgh
Regular: Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Haymarket
Additional: Bolton

Liverpool to Glasgow
Regular: St Helens Central, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Carlisle
Additional: None

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...al agreement_package b wcml from pcd 2017.pdf

It also looks like TPE want to extend Manchester Airport-York services to Newcastle this year using 185s: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ntal agreement_pcd 2016 contingent rights.pdf
I'm not sure where the stock will come from unless they stop loaning 185s to Northern.

If I remember, and I would have to go back and check, but they where the services in the tender document. However it did say that Manchester trains could drop, some of the intermediate stops if they where correspondingly taken up by the Liverpool train. I cannot see TPE not taking this option. In so much as it gives access between the smaller stops and Liverpool, which already have the Manchester connection at other times.

 

[northwichcat]

I cannot see TPE not taking this option. In so much as it gives access between the smaller stops and Liverpool, which already have the Manchester connection at other times.

So you can see the timetable from, say Lockerbie, being something like:

10:00 Manchester Airport
11:30 Liverpool
12:00 Manchester Airport
13:00 Manchester Airport
14:30 Liverpool
15:00 Manchester Airport

Opposed to a consistent timetable where every train goes to Manchester Airport and connections are available for Liverpool?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That kind of timetable is known as "a nuisance". The pure hourly timetable is overall better.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Well I would say comfort isn't a priority at all as far as the DFT are concerned. Headline figures are all that matters but we are never going to agree so end of.

We're never going to agree because you've decided you're right and have yet to produce anything that convinces anyone else as to why.

 

[Dave1987]

We're never going to agree because you've decided you're right and have yet to produce anything that convinces anyone else as to why.

Well I would say we are never going to agree because you seem to believe these Hitachi trains are the best things ever and won't have a word said against them. If the electric version on the AT300 has normal height floors, plenty of legroom and comfortable seats then I'm sure it will be a great train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I would say we are never going to agree because you seem to believe these Hitachi trains are the best things ever and won't have a word said against them. If the electric version on the AT300 has normal height floors, plenty of legroom and comfortable seats then I'm sure it will be a great train.

What *is* it about the floor height? As long as you don't bang your head, who cares?

Class 175s and 180s have quite high floors. It doesn't make them uncomfortable.

 

[ainsworth74]

What *is* it about the floor height? As long as you don't bang your head, who cares?

When Allan Williams and Roger Ford (not noted for their love of the IEP family) had an explore of one recently they didn't even mention the floor height/slope did they?

 

[Dave1987]

When Allan Williams and Roger Ford (not noted for their love of the IEP family) had an explore of one recently they didn't even mention the floor height/slope did they?

Are either of them over 6 foot tall?

 

[ainsworth74]

Are either of them over 6 foot tall?

I don't know but Allan Williams has never struck me a short bloke. But I return to my previous neither of them mentioned it and both of them would almost certainly pick up on it if it was an issue. Considering that Roger Ford noticed that the coat hangers are sprung I think he would have noticed if the floor slope was going to be an issue!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Floor slopes, steps etc are perfectly normal in European stock with its low stepped entrances (not to mention near enough all buses and coaches). I don't see why they'd be an issue here either, while disabled access will be ensured by the relevant strict legal requirements.

If almost no seats have a view and the legroom is rubbish I'll whine, but I really can't see why I would give a monkey's about a slightly sloped floor.

 

[Dave1987]

I don't know but Allan Williams has never struck me a short bloke. But I return to my previous neither of them mentioned it and both of them would almost certainly pick up on it if it was an issue. Considering that Roger Ford noticed that the coat hangers are sprung I think he would have noticed if the floor slope was going to be an issue!

Well with normal EMU's with normal height floors with the HVAC's in the ceilings there is a reasonable amount of headroom. If you start raising the floor I would suggest that headroom for taller people will become an issue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Floor slopes, steps etc are perfectly normal in European stock with its low stepped entrances (not to mention near enough all buses and coaches). I don't see why they'd be an issue here either, while disabled access will be ensured by the relevant strict legal requirements.

If almost no seats have a view and the legroom is rubbish I'll whine, but I really can't see why I would give a monkey's about a slightly sloped floor.

Yes but European stock is far taller than our trains.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Well I would say we are never going to agree because you seem to believe these Hitachi trains are the best things ever and won't have a word said against them. If the electric version on the AT300 has normal height floors, plenty of legroom and comfortable seats then I'm sure it will be a great train.

Except I haven't. I just understand that they have distinct advantages over everything you have suggested.

In fact, I'd put forward that your accusations of fanaticism are just a projection of your own views on the matter: you won't accept them regardless of anything about them.