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TPE franchise awarded to First

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andyb2706

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While it doesn't clear up whether the other 25 new trains will be coming from Hitachi, Railway Gazette International has the following to say.



http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...nspennine-express-multiple-unit-contract.html

I think it is highly likely the follow up order will be for AT300 units, mainly because of the commonality for traincrew, maintenance staff and any specific bits of equipment required for the day to day running of the train, plus if they go for a total new design of train that has not been used in the UK before they will have to go through all the testing that the IEP is going through now and don't forget the order has to be intercity style train with passenger doors at either end of the coach and not the current stuff that Siemens and Bombardier are building. With implementation date of the last unit 2019/2020 it will be a tight time frame for a new train to the UK market, look how long it has taken for the IEP!!

Also having used the Class 395 a few times I am a big fan of them and seeing the IEP/AT300 are based on that unit I am happy.
 
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notlob.divad

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I thought we where expecting to get the announcements on the entire new fleet today. Given these are the Bi-modes due to come in between December 2019 and December 2020, I would have thought the pressing matter would be to announce the Electric Fleet that has to start coming in a year before. It would also be nice to know the exact details of this mystery 3rd set.
 

northwichcat

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I thought we where expecting to get the announcements on the entire new fleet today. Given these are the Bi-modes due to come in between December 2019 and December 2020, I would have thought the pressing matter would be to announce the Electric Fleet that has to start coming in a year before. It would also be nice to know the exact details of this mystery 3rd set.

The 'mystery' is needed 1st to be able to run the Newcastle enhancements which might explain the suggestions of new loco-hauled carriages used initially with existing locos - fastest way of getting new sets in to service.

As mentioned already Tony Miles (from Modern Railways) has said he understands deals for the other units are almost agreed and it's just finalising the details of maintenance contracts which has stopped them from being announced this week. He's given a strong hint that CAF mk5s will be ordered and that in total they'll be 3 products from 2 manufacturers.
 

87015

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The 'mystery' is needed 1st to be able to run the Newcastle enhancements which might explain the suggestions of new loco-hauled carriages used initially with existing locos - fastest way of getting new sets in to service.

As mentioned already Tony Miles (from Modern Railways) has said he understands deals for the other units are almost agreed and it's just finalising the details of maintenance contracts which has stopped them from being announced this week. He's given a strong hint that CAF mk5s will be ordered and that in total they'll be 3 products from 2 manufacturers.
Changed his tune then as he's been declaring no LHCS when most others has been expecting exactly what has been announced so far as it was in the bid but didn't fit his agenda...
 
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northwichcat

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Changed his tune then as he's been declaring no LHCS when most others has been expecting exactly what has been announced so far as it was in the bid but didn't fit his agenda...

He did also dismiss the suggestion the 20 extra Porterbrook 387s could go to Northern stating new EMUs for Northern would be unaffordable, but changed his mind after citing CAF were desperate for work and had offered a good price for new EMUs to Northern bidders.
 

DarloRich

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A little out of the loop TPE wise these days but:

1) New bi mode Hitachi efforts confirmed as ordered
2) Separate EMU order pending

1 & 2 dont meet all of the stock requirements therefore

3) LHCS rumour wont go away

correct?
 

northwichcat

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A little out of the loop TPE wise these days but:

1) New bi mode Hitachi efforts confirmed as ordered
2) Separate EMU order pending

1 & 2 dont meet all of the stock requirements therefore

3) LHCS rumour wont go away

correct?

19 x Hitachi AT300 bi-modes ordered to be in service by 2019.

12 x new 5 car electrics to be in service by 2018 TBC.

13 x new 5 car diesel powered/bi-mode sets with first sets to enter service by end of 2017 TBC.
 

DarloRich

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19 x Hitachi AT300 bi-modes ordered to be in service by 2019.

12 x new 5 car electrics to be in service by 2018 TBC.

13 x new 5 car diesel powered/bi-mode sets with first sets to enter service by end of 2017 TBC.

thanks - interesting. I assume the final 13 units are open to conjecture. I expect the 12 x 5 cars to be follow on electric only versions of the bi mode trains for commonality reasons.
 
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jimm

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I think it is highly likely the follow up order will be for AT300 units, mainly because of the commonality for traincrew, maintenance staff and any specific bits of equipment required for the day to day running of the train, plus if they go for a total new design of train that has not been used in the UK before they will have to go through all the testing that the IEP is going through now and don't forget the order has to be intercity style train with passenger doors at either end of the coach and not the current stuff that Siemens and Bombardier are building. With implementation date of the last unit 2019/2020 it will be a tight time frame for a new train to the UK market, look how long it has taken for the IEP!!

Also having used the Class 395 a few times I am a big fan of them and seeing the IEP/AT300 are based on that unit I am happy.

I'd be inclined to agree that it may very well be for more Hitachi trains, both for the reasons you outline and because Hitachi is now clearly First Group's supplier of choice for express sets, with two confirmed orders for AT300s for GWT and TPE on top of all the 800 and 801s to be operated by GWR via the DfT/Agility Trains deal - plus the prospect of four more sets for Hull Trains at some point, while GWR is looking to add nine more five-car AT300s for the Cotswolds and Bedwyn services to the existing GWR order.

And while I pointed out above that Hitachi certainly knows how to build a tilting train, does TPE actually need them? The 350s cover Preston to Edinburgh or Glasgow now in about 10 minutes more than a Pendolino and that includes a Lockerbie stop, so is tilt really necessary? If not, then an 801 order looks the obvious way to go for Manchester/Liverpool-Scotland via the WCML, assuming Hitachi have the capacity to deliver all these new trains in such a short timeframe.
 

notlob.divad

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There is a whole thread dedicated to what the stock may or may not be here.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=126231

My point was not to re-do that discussion, but to point out that what it is wasn't announced today which I kind of expected. Particularly as whatever they are, they are going to be required a damn site sooner than the Bi-modes announced yesterday/today
 

TheKnightWho

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thanks - interesting. I assume the final 13 units are open to conjecture. I expect the 12 x 5 cars to be follow on electric only versions of the bi mode trains for commonality reasons.

I wouldn't be so certain. Those 12 are destined for the Scottish WCML services, so it's possible we'll see something else. If it were just more IEPs, I don't see why they wouldn't have been announced with the bimodes. It's interesting that 3 batches from 2 suppliers are mentioned, given both Hitcahi and CAF both make tilting trains. I expect we might see something wholly different.

What I do not understand is why the 13 other sets for the TPE North services haven't been ordered as further units of those coming into service in 2019: having two types of train seems pointless. That being said, CAF+Mk5s for a few years until further bimodes can be ordered isn't particularly outrageous if it's absolutely necessary they arrive by 2017, with bimodes following from, say, 2020. (I have no idea how long it will take Hitachi to construct all of their current orders, but I imagine rather a long time.)
 
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northwichcat

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I think that is an incorrect assumption, otherwise I suspect the whole order would have been for 800s and 801s.

I agree and also if all parts were with Hitachi surely First and Hitachi would have agreed the deal for the trains needed first before the deal for the trains needed last?
 

jimm

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19 x Hitachi AT300 bi-modes ordered to be in service by 2019.

12 x new 5 car electrics to be in service by 2018 TBC.

13 x new 5 car diesel powered/bi-mode sets with first sets to enter service by end of 2017 TBC.

You need to take a closer look at that press release from yesterday. The wording is very clear.

A deal for the procurement of the remaining 25 new trains is expected to be finalised soon. The first of these trains will be delivered in Spring 2018.

That's one deal, for 25 trains, to be delivered from Spring 2018.

And until the GWR AT300 work was moved to Italy, Hitachi's Kasado works in Japan was due to be delivering those 29 AT300s to GWR from May 2018... so there might just be an opening on the production line in Japan at just the right time.

And for all those going 'why not this, that or the other order being placed at this point?', might I point out that First already had an option with Hitachi for 30 more AT300 bi-modes. Take the 19, add on four HT sets and nine more GWR sets and we're already past that number. There was no option in place for any straight electric sets, so any agreement for those would have to be drawn up from scratch.
 
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northwichcat

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What I do not understand is why the 13 other sets for the TPE North services haven't been ordered as class 800s: having two types of train seems pointless.

Two possible reasons:
1. TPE will need something that can run to non-electrified destinations and divert off the wires long term. However, that doesn't mean all North TPE Intercity sets need to be able to operate off the wires long-term. That also makes loco-hauled carriages (where a diesel loco can be easily switched for an electric one) a plausible solution.
2. Capacity at train manufacturers meaning it might take a very long time for a large enough set of one class of train. CAF were apparently desperate for work while Siemens had a full order book but if TPE place an order with CAF they might finish up being very busy given they also have both the Northern DMUs and EMUs to deliver.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You need to take a closer look at that press release from yesterday. The wording is very clear.

That was yesterday's news, this appeared on TPE's website today ;)

Key benefits for the North East:
From 2017
Restoration of direct services between Newcastle, Durham, Darlington and Manchester Airport.
Continuation of highly popular hourly services in both directions to Liverpool on brand new intercity trains

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/news/201...se-launches/new-franchise-benefits-by-region/

Personally I think there is a risk the new trains won't be in service by December 2017 but if that is the case that will likely delay the franchise requirement for 2tph to Newcastle by December 2017.
 

jimm

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That was yesterday's news, this appeared on TPE's website today

I think I'll stick with what was said in a statement that had clearly been signed off by First, Angel Trains, Hitachi and the DfT...
 

TheKnightWho

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You would not order a new build of anything with a plan to use for only 5 years. The funding would not be forthcoming.

There are plenty of orders for trains that are only used at their initial TOC for a short while: the 350/4s have only been at TPE since 2014. I'm not expecting the scrap at 2020! Having a set of 65 new-build carriages would be useful for numerous reasons.
 
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scotsman

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There are plenty of orders for trains that are only used at their initial TOC for a short while: the 350/4s have only been at TPE since 2014. I'm not expecting the scrap at 2020! Having a set of 65 new-build carriages would be useful for numerous reasons.

The plan is that the 350s go to LM
 

NotATrainspott

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There are plenty of orders for trains that are only used at their initial TOC for a short while: the 350/4s have only been at TPE since 2014. I'm not expecting the scrap at 2020! Having a set of 65 new-build carriages would be useful for numerous reasons.

110mph commuter EMUs will always have a home somewhere on the network, unlike new coaching stock. Even a microfleet could probably find somewhere eventually, e.g. running electrified branch line services in Devon and Cornwall. The 350/4s in particular could be used almost anywhere on the network, regeared down to 75mph for use on inner-suburban services or kept at 110mph and used for electrified regional services on 125mph mainlines.

New unpowered coaches wouldn't have anywhere near the same number of possible use cases. While they may be useful while coupled to a diesel locomotive, any service they do coupled to an electric one would be done more efficiently by an EMU. Even rural routes wouldn't be suitable since the key to rural routes is to increase frequencies and journey times, which will always favour lightweight and short DMUs rather than locomotives carrying any number of carriages.

The only time that carriages are efficient is when there are enough of them to justify a heavy locomotive - since there are no light traffic locos any more. The only such services are those which run at 125mph on congested electrified main lines, and so would be best off with fast-accelerating EMUs which can use every metre of platform space for passengers, or the sleeper services which are already getting new rolling stock. The sleeper vehicles have a different window arrangement to the passenger vehicles, so I don't even see it being possible to convert any new day coaches to become the new sleeper vehicles for the Night Riviera service.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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As far as I can see, CAF and Hitachi both do tilting EMUs, but not at 125mph.
The applications so far seem to be on regional lines at 160kph max.

Hitachi obviously do 125mph non-tilt EMUs - class 395.
CAF's high-speed non-tilt EMUs appear to use Alstom traction gear (RENFE AVE S-120, Avant S-104 etc).

Getting the right bogie/traction package will be vital for the WCML, especially if it is going to be 125mph (tilt and TASS).
 
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skyhigh

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If they are Mk5s, is it possible that they're a modular build and after they've finished on TPE they can get converted to sleeper stock fairly easily to replace that used in Cornwall? That would at least give some a long-term home.
 

507021

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After seeing 185108 in the new livery for myself in Manchester today, I quite like the new TransPennine Express livery. I think the colours blend well together, and I particularly like the grey band around the windows, which adds a bit of variety. I think it's an improvement on the last livery, anyway.
 

northwichcat

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If they are Mk5s, is it possible that they're a modular build and after they've finished on TPE they can get converted to sleeper stock fairly easily to replace that used in Cornwall? That would at least give some a long-term home.

Why would unpowered carriages need to be removed from TPE? Diesel only locos- yes in 2022 but the carriages will be versatile and could probably stay on TPE routes for 40 years if they are built well.
 

Haydn1971

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If they are Mk5s, is it possible that they're a modular build and after they've finished on TPE they can get converted to sleeper stock fairly easily to replace that used in Cornwall? That would at least give some a long-term home.

My thoughts exactly - clearly would be needed before 2019 access issues become a problem
 

LNW-GW Joint

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If they are Mk5s, is it possible that they're a modular build and after they've finished on TPE they can get converted to sleeper stock fairly easily to replace that used in Cornwall? That would at least give some a long-term home.

I don't like the term "Mk5".
It suggests someone has centrally designed a standard loco-hauled coach for which multiple uses will be found.
If ordered, they will just be a unique class for the TOC concerned, like the Caledonian Sleepers were.
Even Mk4 only turned out to be one order.
 
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